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Old 08-24-2019, 09:55 PM   #1
sjs94704
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Default Where should I put a Vox De-esser in my project? See PIC of track layout..

Hi:

In the picture of my track layout you will see that I have:

LV: This is where the actual vox gets recorded to
DELAY: Vox Delay
REVERB: Vox Reverb
Sub VOCAL: All above tracks are routed to this track

Which one of the above tracks should I place my de-esser on?
And, where in the Fx Chain should the De-esser sit?

LV track has:
-EQ
-Compressor
-Waves Auto-Tune

Sub VOCAL currently has no Fx plugins
Both DELAY and REVERB have a single plugin each for delay and reverb.

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Old 08-24-2019, 10:39 PM   #2
1111Eugene
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it doesn't matter
you need to understand what's happening logically
level and frequency-wise
all you are to do
is make it sound great
and nothing else matter
you can put 1 deesser
or 2
or even 10
in a row
or not
it doesn't matter
only the audible result matters.
in most cases
it should sound natural and beautiful
it is always better to put several deessers etc
to make it work natural
processing should be "magical"
all of a sudden the perfomance or the recording should sound more even and much better.
but the processing itself should not be obvious or hearable.
thus it is a good idea
to put several deessers (you decide where they should be putted)
and each of them should do not much
in order to fix the "problem" and at the same time be invisible to ears.
also there's a sound "ssssss"
and also sound "zzzzz"
and other harsh sounds
which is of a whole different frequencies.
so a part of deessers should be for "sss" and others for "zzzz", and so on, or example, if it is needed.
but
don't mix in solo
mix it in the mix.
and decide what is needed (maybe everything sounds great as it is)
any processing should be for the reason.
putting smth just because somebody told you to
is non-sense and won't get you anywhere nice

to give you an exact answer for the project
you need to upload it
because
everything is only about the sound
and 0% about the pictures, levels, gain reduction, etc

Last edited by 1111Eugene; 08-24-2019 at 10:52 PM.
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Old 08-24-2019, 10:59 PM   #3
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Thanks for the reply. However, there has got to be some way to narrow it down a bit more than that! I realize there is no one way to do a lot of things, but, there must be a place where you would start.........
But, leaving it such an open ended answer is too confusing to make good use of that answer.
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Old 08-25-2019, 12:20 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjs94704 View Post
Thanks for the reply. However, there has got to be some way to narrow it down a bit more than that!
Start by putting them on the actual individual vocal tracks and adjust to taste. After that, listen. You can add multiple dessers on 1 track this will keep one from doing all the work and sound more natural.

You're right there isnt 1 way to do it but the way to do is is based on how the Ss's sound.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1111Eugene View Post

to give you an exact answer for the project
you need to upload it
because
everything is only about the sound
and 0% about the pictures, levels, gain reduction, etc
^^^ This right here is important otherwise you're going to have answers that might not work well for you. Everything is based on how the audio sounds. Your plugin order depends on how you want to affect the sound as well.
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Old 08-25-2019, 07:15 AM   #5
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You could start here:

Why do you need a de-esser? if the recorded vocal has excess sibilance then put the de-esser on the Lv track before the other effects. If that does not sound right move it down the Fx chain.

You might also like to duplicate the tracks, with the de-esser in different places so you can do A|B tests on each.
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Old 08-25-2019, 08:24 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
You could start here:

Why do you need a de-esser? if the recorded vocal has excess sibilance then put the de-esser on the Lv track before the other effects. If that does not sound right move it down the Fx chain.

You might also like to duplicate the tracks, with the de-esser in different places so you can do A|B tests on each.
Thanks DarkStar. Gives me a good place to start.
Beyond your answer, for my purposes, it's really not important enough to take this discussion further, but, if you all want to say more about it feel free.

Thanks to all for your contributions to my question.....
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Old 08-25-2019, 09:00 AM   #7
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It should go on LV since it's the track that's sending a signal to the other ones, they reflect what's being received.

De-essing LV will fix problematic frequencies on all subsequent tracks.
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Old 08-25-2019, 09:10 AM   #8
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Depends on what you are doing with that deesser of course. Usually first in any fx chain on the vocal in question because we are trying to get rid of a pronounced artifact (ssssss's poking through too hot) before doing anything else. The other common use is taming cymbal bleed that can scream through your vocal mic in live situations.

Pulling sssss's and cymbals out of vocal tracks? Almost always put it first.
Not sure what other creative examples might put it somewhere else in the chain.

If this was a studio situation and the song in question maybe had say, 5 spots with an ssssss poking through. And maybe I heard some dulling I didn't like from the deessor. I might just slice those 5 ssssss out (into new items) and adjust their item volume manually. Done and done. (I might still do that if there were 14 of them. Quicker than auditioning settings or giving my perception bias something to play with.) On a live stage I might have two deessors on the lead vocal. One for the actual vocal sibilant issue and one for the f-ing cymbals cutting through my lead vocal. (And they would be first on that track.)

Last edited by serr; 08-25-2019 at 09:19 AM.
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Old 08-25-2019, 11:25 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serr View Post
Pulling sssss's and cymbals out of vocal tracks? Almost always put it first.
Not sure what other creative examples might put it somewhere else in the chain.
Agreed. De-essers (for their original intended purpose) seem to work most naturally on the unedited source material (before any other effects). My anecdotal experience, anyway.

Steven, check out this script:

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=189120

It works using item envelopes (which are "in the signal chain" before any plugin can affect the sound), and it's my favorite de-esser. I'm able to dial it in to the response of a particular vocalist more easily than with plugins that I've used. Plus since it's using envelopes, you can edit the response of various words/phrases separately by editing parts of the envelope (if there are a few things you want to change but leave the rest alone). This can save you having to split the audio to make specific edits, or using the spectral peaks view to edit certain frequencies on certain words (all are valid methods of course).
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Old 08-25-2019, 11:32 AM   #10
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Hmmm...
Yeah, I probably need to check out some of those creative scripts one of these times. Creating envelopes that I could later edit if needed (or do nothing more with if not) sounds right up my alley!
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Old 08-25-2019, 11:37 AM   #11
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Quote:
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Hmmm...
Yeah, I probably need to check out some of those creative scripts one of these times. Creating envelopes that I could later edit if needed (or do nothing more with if not) sounds right up my alley!
He also makes an envelope-based compressor which is equally impressive. I find it most useful when trying to do "invisible" leveling, especially since you can use pre-comp a lot without adding latency (it just makes an envelope so there's no PDC to consider).

And with both plugins (because it's using item envelopes) you get visual feedback on the entire waveform to help you know what you're doing.
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Old 08-25-2019, 03:51 PM   #12
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I imagine it wouldn't make much sense using the EBC and EBD on the same item? I'm not near my Reaper machine atm to check.
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Old 08-25-2019, 05:57 PM   #13
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Sinple answer: if you use a denoising plug such as ReaFIR in subtract mode, it should be the next one. Otherwise it should be the first one.

That keeps spit noises from triggering later compressors.
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Old 08-25-2019, 07:58 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alanofoz View Post
I imagine it wouldn't make much sense using the EBC and EBD on the same item? I'm not near my Reaper machine atm to check.
Since they both use item envelopes, it makes sense to glue the item after de-essing and then applying the compression to the glued item. The original audio will still exist in the project folder so it's not a big deal if it needs to be reverted.
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Old 08-26-2019, 08:39 AM   #15
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Thanks, I wondered about that, but ended up copying the EBC item envelope to the track, then applied EBD to the item.
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Old 08-26-2019, 08:55 AM   #16
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That's also good idea. Since the envelope is for volume you can reassign it to something other than the item. The downsides are that you don't get to see how it affects the waveform visually anymore and depending on which volume envelope you move it to, it might be before or after the effects.
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Old 08-26-2019, 11:48 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesPeters View Post
Steven, check out this script:

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=189120

It works using item envelopes (which are "in the signal chain" before any plugin can affect the sound), and it's my favorite de-esser. I'm able to dial it in to the response of a particular vocalist more easily than with plugins that I've used. Plus since it's using envelopes, you can edit the response of various words/phrases separately by editing parts of the envelope (if there are a few things you want to change but leave the rest alone). This can save you having to split the audio to make specific edits, or using the spectral peaks view to edit certain frequencies on certain words (all are valid methods of course).
Thanks for the tip! Very cool script!

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He also makes an envelope-based compressor which is equally impressive. I find it most useful when trying to do "invisible" leveling, especially since you can use pre-comp a lot without adding latency (it just makes an envelope so there's no PDC to consider).

And with both plugins (because it's using item envelopes) you get visual feedback on the entire waveform to help you know what you're doing.
For some reason I'm not able to get this one. I try to save it and it becomes an html file. I'm doing exactly the same as I did with the De-Esser but this one just refuses to bow down to my wishes... uh... I mean... uh... it's not working...
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Old 08-26-2019, 02:00 PM   #18
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You're right-clicking on the link to the envelope-based compressor version 2 and saying "save" or "save as". Don't. Follow the link to the HTML page, then download/save the EEL file.

He linked the envelope-based de-esser file directly, but linked to the Github page for the envelope-based compressor.

Also they're in ReaPack. That's what I use.
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Old 08-26-2019, 03:31 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesPeters View Post
That's also good idea. Since the envelope is for volume you can reassign it to something other than the item. The downsides are that you don't get to see how it affects the waveform visually anymore and depending on which volume envelope you move it to, it might be before or after the effects.
Quite right. I'll be experimenting with various possibilities here, including swapping the EBC and EBD. Only expecting small differences in the final result though.
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Old 08-26-2019, 10:15 PM   #20
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Quote:
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Also they're in ReaPack. That's what I use.
I got them once I added him to Reapack. Thank you, Sir!
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Old 08-27-2019, 09:24 AM   #21
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You're welcome! Credit to eugen2777 for making the awesome scripts!
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