Old 08-14-2020, 05:27 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by vitalker View Post
Did you read my comments perhaps?
Yes, that was relevant (though that video is showing functionality that REAPER doesn't support). But it seems like some of the responses are overlooking the "multiple time positions" part of the sentence.
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Old 08-14-2020, 07:18 PM   #162
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I feel like a lot of people are misreading this.
How so? Several specific use cases have been pointed out. Do you need more?
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Old 08-14-2020, 08:40 PM   #163
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How so?
Did you see my post
https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=151?

I think the point is that some of the posts seem to miss the distinction between being able to make multiple ASs in general vs. being able to make multiple ASs at diferent time positions.

edit, quotes for the case:
"multiple areas would be useful..."
"With multiple areas..."

Last edited by nofish; 08-14-2020 at 08:49 PM.
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Old 08-14-2020, 08:58 PM   #164
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Originally Posted by nofish View Post
Did you see my post
https://forum.cockos.com/showpost.ph...&postcount=151?

I think the point is that some of the posts seem to miss the distinction between being able to make multiple ASs in general vs. being able to make multiple ASs at diferent time positions.
I did see your post. And I strongly disagree that not being able to do it in one go is acceptable.

Furthermore, did you see this?

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Originally Posted by Thonex View Post
Say you have Multiple Area Selections... and you need to move/copy them all in tandem to a 16th note grid. How tedious would it be to do that separately for each area keeping their exact offset??

Same for MIDI.
As far as I'm concerned it would be a disaster to not have this ability with AS.
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Old 08-14-2020, 09:32 PM   #165
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I haven't claimed that being able to make area selections at multiple time positions simultaneously wouldn't be a benefit.
In fact I've brought up an own use case.
Just wanted to help clear up what I think schwa is referring to...
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Old 08-14-2020, 09:44 PM   #166
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I don't get the multiple distincted time selection issues . Is it because what to do if an extend to selected event modifier is used?
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Old 08-14-2020, 10:13 PM   #167
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To put it simply, there are a lot of complications in having two different ways to select areas. Time selection and Area Selection.

If you combined both into one thing, it simplifies everything. We hope. IOW - A time selection becomes nothing more than an area selection that includes every track in that area.

Assuming that this greatly simplifies this for 95% of it's use cases, it may be worth sacrificing the ability to select multiple things from multiple locations.

No one is arguing that it wouldn't be better to have that functionality. But it may not be worth it to make REAPER more and more complicated with having two functions that do similar things.

And to keep the conversation more productive, let's talk in terms of effectiveness. The idea that NOT having multiple location editing is "unacceptable" is hyperbole. We all use REAPER in it's current form without area selection. So it's currently "acceptable". No matter how it's implemented, it will be better.

The issue is whether or not the incredible complication is worth saving a few extra steps for the 1% of editing most of us would use area selection from multiple locations for.

Last edited by Kenny Gioia; 08-14-2020 at 10:19 PM.
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Old 08-14-2020, 10:56 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by schwa View Post
In real life, practical uses, what is the case for supporting area selections at multiple time positions simultaneously?
Copying parts of MIDI composition to other instruments, for example:



That example has only two sections, but in practice (a cue for game or TV soundtrack etc.) there can be plenty of them, of different lengths. Multiple Area selections at multiple time positions simplifies the workflow for that case considerably.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
To put it simply, there are a lot of complications in having two different ways to select areas. Time selection and Area Selection.

If you combined both into one thing, it simplifies everything.
Personally, I prefer to keep Time selection linked to Loop points and use it only for things that concern all tracks in the project, like selecting range for looping or rendering. It is ideal for that purpose.

I agree that some of functionality previously associated with Time selection - like using Time selection for targeting operations on items and points - should eventually be integrated into Area selection. However, Time selection and Area selection should remain separate, in my opinion.

So for what it's worth, here's +1 for keeping the possibility of making Area selections at multiple time positions.
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Old 08-14-2020, 11:03 PM   #169
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Maybe not so difficult to combine both in the future. Area selection takes care of Y and X, while time selection takes care of X. In a single AS (or multiple if considered the total length of the area) there is implicit time selection so Maybe at some point Devs might consider it.

Loop locators (time selection looped) will always have to exist. The non looped time selection I don't know. Personally it's always a struggle looking in the render dialog time selection not referring the the loop version.

Anyway the non looped time selection maybe is quite doable to unify with area selection as I described (it's my feeling .. maybe I am wrong)


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The render could consider the loop locators (loop time selection) instead of the non loop time selection as I referred previously. Any other example?
And API time selection functitons could inherit the implicit time selection in an area selection, and so backward compatible. Anyway!
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Old 08-14-2020, 11:08 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post

If you combined both into one thing, it simplifies everything. We hope. IOW - A time selection becomes nothing more than an area selection that includes every track in that area.

I think AS and TS may have very different user cases thinking that after some actions AS is gone, and TS keeps its place.



This for exemple I would have to redo every time the AS. So Ts is at least currently more durable and this may change the desired workflow.

EDIT:

Idk if the "multiple time positions" part of the sentence. was refering to this post (If so sorry hahafha):
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Originally Posted by daniellumertz View Post

Move One area Edge is to be used horizontally only ?
if so, I dont have any pratical use for what I posted hahah, I was just wondering because of the naming actually. The Mmod "Move One area Edge" when I read it I was thinking if could be used vertically ....

Last edited by daniellumertz; 08-14-2020 at 11:25 PM.
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Old 08-14-2020, 11:09 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
To put it simply, there are a lot of complications in having two different ways to select areas. Time selection and Area Selection.

If you combined both into one thing, it simplifies everything. We hope. IOW - A time selection becomes nothing more than an area selection that includes every track in that area.

Assuming that this greatly simplifies this for 95% of it's use cases, it may be worth sacrificing the ability to select multiple things from multiple locations.

No one is arguing that it wouldn't be better to have that functionality. But it may not be worth it to make REAPER more and more complicated with having two functions that do similar things.

And to keep the conversation more productive, let's talk in terms of effectiveness. The idea that NOT having multiple location editing is "unacceptable" is hyperbole. We all use REAPER in it's current form without area selection. So it's currently "acceptable". No matter how it's implemented, it will be better.

The issue is whether or not the incredible complication is worth saving a few extra steps for the 1% of editing most of us would use area selection from multiple locations for.
I agree specially for item based stuff, but i can see a widely used case and benefit of multiple selection when reaper allows to manipulate envelope values with area selection tho. Also when there is an API to enumerate areas , so that we can apply scripting on it.
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Old 08-14-2020, 11:28 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
To put it simply, there are a lot of complications in having two different ways to select areas...

...The issue is whether or not the incredible complication is worth saving a few extra steps for the 1% of editing most of us would use area selection from multiple locations for.
Very well put, thanks Kenny. This is essentially what I was trying to get across in my last post, but you've stated much clearly than I did.

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Originally Posted by n997 View Post
Personally, I prefer to keep Time selection linked to Loop points and use it only for things that concern all tracks in the project, like selecting range for looping or rendering. It is ideal for that purpose.
I get what you're saying, but if area and time selection were unified in the way Kenny is suggesting, couldn't you just use the loop markers on their own for all that? As deeb pointed out in the post directly below yours, once we can do all the editing operations we want with area selection, having an "all tracks" time selection that's separate from the loop markers would no longer seem necessary.

Last edited by RobinGShore; 08-14-2020 at 11:37 PM.
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Old 08-15-2020, 12:27 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by RobinGShore View Post
[...] if area and time selection were unified in the way Kenny is suggesting, couldn't you just use the loop markers on their own for all that? As deeb pointed out in the post directly below yours, once we can do all the editing operations we want with area selection, having an "all tracks" time selection that's separate from the loop markers would no longer seem necessary.
As long as all functionality which Time selection was previously used for can be done via Area selection or Loop points, I personally would have no objections. And of course Bounds: "Time range between loop points" would need to be added to Render dialog.

However, concerning all existing REAPER users, I think that for near future it would be better to keep Time selection as it is, until all its functionality is indeed reliably replicated elsewhere.
One of big reasons for this are all the scripts based on using Time selection as targeting method. All of those scripts would be lost in time like tears in rain broken if Time selection is removed before relinking its API functions to Area selection or Loop points.


Regarding multiple Area selections at multiple time positions: if integrating Time selection functionality into Area selection would be the reason for disallowing them, that seems rather extreme.
I don't know but would imagine that Time selection-like time range targeting could be based on outermost start and end point of all Area selections, or simply transferred to Loop points instead. And if none of that is feasible, I'd vote for simply keeping Time selection and Area selection existing and separate as they currently are while AS is developed further to allow selecting points, items etc. with it.

Last edited by n997; 08-15-2020 at 12:52 AM. Reason: clarified what I meant
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Old 08-15-2020, 01:02 AM   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
But it may not be worth it to make REAPER more and more complicated with having two functions that do similar things.
How's that similar if later was supported?

https://youtu.be/TY5UuK6T7R0?t=31

Also stretching with AS is really unique compared with TS and how in general selects/edit things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
And to keep the conversation more productive, let's talk in terms of effectiveness. The idea that NOT having multiple location editing is "unacceptable" is hyperbole. We all use REAPER in it's current form without area selection. So it's currently "acceptable". No matter how it's implemented, it will be better.
How can tell a Reaper user how useful could be to have multiple selections or not since it hasn't been used a lot? It's acceptable because that's what we have, not because it's more useful than AS or it's similar(because it isn't).
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Old 08-15-2020, 01:10 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
If you combined both into one thing, it simplifies everything. We hope. IOW - A time selection becomes nothing more than an area selection that includes every track in that area.
That's I was talking for a lot of times! On the other hand it doesn't mean area selection shouldn't have multiple areas at multiple time positions.

Last edited by vitalker; 08-15-2020 at 01:17 AM.
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Old 08-15-2020, 01:32 AM   #176
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Invert

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfbQ1Wvwf90

Another good showcase

https://youtu.be/tP81-BujExE?t=90
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Old 08-15-2020, 01:53 AM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
To put it simply, there are a lot of complications in having two different ways to select areas. Time selection and Area Selection.

If you combined both into one thing, it simplifies everything. We hope. IOW - A time selection becomes nothing more than an area selection that includes every track in that area.

Assuming that this greatly simplifies this for 95% of it's use cases, it may be worth sacrificing the ability to select multiple things from multiple locations.

No one is arguing that it wouldn't be better to have that functionality. But it may not be worth it to make REAPER more and more complicated with having two functions that do similar things.

And to keep the conversation more productive, let's talk in terms of effectiveness. The idea that NOT having multiple location editing is "unacceptable" is hyperbole. We all use REAPER in it's current form without area selection. So it's currently "acceptable". No matter how it's implemented, it will be better.

The issue is whether or not the incredible complication is worth saving a few extra steps for the 1% of editing most of us would use area selection from multiple locations for.
+1
I think schwa is doing sort of a cost/benefit analysis here and I'm sure it's for a good reason.
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Old 08-15-2020, 06:23 AM   #178
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I think the key to multiple AS over time is that there a few things we might want to do all the time, or workflows this could really speed up. Do we need it to do everything a TS does in that use case? No. But would it be a huge improvement to allow some basic functions that make sense across multiple time selections? Absolutely!

Here are things I would like to be able to do across multiple AS over time and I don't think any of them would be uncommon or impractical

1. Horizontal/Vertical Move ("let me take these areas and put them on new or different tracks without repeating a bunch of split, copy/paste operations")

2. Cut/Copy (similar to above)

3. Split/Delete ("let me chop out the choruses, I'm going to try something new" area select different times+delete is a very efficient operation)

4. If multiple envelopes selected and I'm working over an envelope, create envelope points (AS: create envelope points at AS bounds) or create/edit envelope segments on all AS (Ctrl+Shift+drag). ("Let me adjust the pan on these sections real quick without needing to create a bunch of AI's or copy/paste" or maybe I just want to create envelope points at those sections for manual adjustment later).

Can the above stuff be done? If I could do those 4 things across multiple AS's in time, I'd call it a big win. Not having multiple AS's over time at all, and I'd just stick to Time Select+Selected Track, split everything manually, paste, and it's extra steps

Things I don't necessarily think we need to hung up on and could be intentionally restricted: if multiple time selections, extending the size of multiple selections via an action. Not having to worry about stretching/looping-type actions across multiple AS. Creating regions from multiple Area Selections for example wouldn't make sense because multiple AS's over time could overlap, so that's not needed.

I think for the love of God, keep it simple but flexible. This sub-forum has a tendency to go way too deep into looking for complex solution to cover every edge-case scenario sometimes at the expense of making any kind of sane or practical suggestions IMO. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
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Old 08-15-2020, 07:04 AM   #179
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Why just not implement natively Sexan's script? Is it possible?
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Old 08-15-2020, 07:59 AM   #180
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Area selection is a big new thing, and it's important that the functionality is consistent with existing REAPER behavior, that existing workflows aren't affected unexpectedly, and that everything is coherent.

We've had a lot of discussion about this internally, and it's clear that area selection as it's currently implemented introduces some inconsistencies in behavior that are not possible to resolve without significantly changing existing behaviors, or else having all kinds of special case behaviors that are difficult to explain and use.

What we're currently planning to do is scale back the area selection functionality, so that area selection is more like a special case of project time selection. We'll still support all of the current area selection behaviors, but they will be more consistent with time selection behaviors.

The scaling back will be that you can have non-contiguous area selections vertically, but not horizontally. This is a reduction in functionality, but we'd rather take smaller, more careful steps in a useful direction rather than jumping forward and ending up with a system that's inconsistent and difficult to use.

This discussion will all be a lot more focused once the new behavior is in a +dev build, but that won't be for at least a week or so.

I'm sure a lot of users' reaction to this will be "why don't you just do X and Y," and of course that's fine and helpful, but please have some faith that we are giving this a lot of careful thought.
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Old 08-15-2020, 08:06 AM   #181
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yes I agree Schwa, please don't break any existing behaviour

while left drag to area select by default was cool I had to disable it because I'm used to left drag to time select envelopes and then double click on the envelope or drag that envelope part down a bit. this doesn't work with area selection right now.
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Old 08-15-2020, 09:31 AM   #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
What we're currently planning to do is scale back the area selection functionality, so that area selection is more like a special case of project time selection. We'll still support all of the current area selection behaviors, but they will be more consistent with time selection behaviors.

The scaling back will be that you can have non-contiguous area selections vertically, but not horizontally.
Just a thought i said multiple times, maybe useful or maybe ridiculous:
but multiple horizontal areas could be seen has a single "time selection". The left most and the right most.

Non looped time selection actions could be linked to looped time selections. So that everything would be backward compatible.
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Old 08-15-2020, 09:43 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by schwa View Post
We'll still support all of the current area selection behaviors, but they will be more consistent with time selection behaviors.

The scaling back will be that you can have non-contiguous area selections vertically, but not horizontally. This is a reduction in functionality, but we'd rather take smaller, more careful steps in a useful direction rather than jumping forward and ending up with a system that's inconsistent and difficult to use.
This is reassuring to know.

My experience is that since Area selection was implemented, it has increased REAPER's capabilities considerably. It was the reason I've begun to actively use recent dev builds instead of main release, and I wouldn't want to go back to REAPER without Area selection (including initiating it via left drag).

Personally I'm OK without multiple-time-positions Area selection for time being. I do hope multi-time AS will be brought back sometime in the future, because in some cases it's noticeably more efficient than other methods.

In any case thanks for your work!
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Old 08-15-2020, 12:21 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by schwa View Post

The scaling back will be that you can have non-contiguous area selections vertically, but not horizontally. This is a reduction in functionality, but we'd rather take smaller, more careful steps in a useful direction rather than jumping forward and ending up with a system that's inconsistent and difficult to use.
Hi schwa,

Will this only work with Visible Tracks (I hope so)? It would be a shame that we are bound to vertical selections of ALL tracks. Having the ability to hide tracks would take the sting out for me.

Is this a possibility?

Cheers,

Andrew K
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Old 08-15-2020, 12:45 PM   #185
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The scaling back will be that you can have non-contiguous area selections vertically, but not horizontally.
This would mean that the new feature misses the point of Area Selection completely, and the users who most vocally pleaded for Area Selection will not be happy. Poor Sexan will have to start coding again.

Time Selection and Area Selection should be two different things that are used for different, albeit overlapping, purposes. AS does not need to have all the functions of TS.

I hope that development of AS doesn't come to a premature end like Automation Items, leaving it in a semi-usable state.
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Old 08-15-2020, 01:00 PM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juliansader View Post
AS does not need to have all the functions of TS.
This would results in unintuitive workflow. And make AS kinda useless for users who relies their workflow with TS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
If you combined both into one thing, it simplifies everything.
+1
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Old 08-15-2020, 01:03 PM   #187
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This would mean that the new feature misses the point of Area Selection completely, and the users who most vocally pleaded for Area Selection will not be happy. Poor Sexan will have to start coding again.

Time Selection and Area Selection should be two different things that are used for different, albeit overlapping, purposes. AS does not need to have all the functions of TS.

I hope that development of AS doesn't come to a premature end like Automation Items, leaving it in a semi-usable state.

That's what has been spinning in my mind since i saw schwa's post..

I just hope AS won't sacrifice totally its behavior/way of editing, for the sake of time selection.
I thought as it is now implemented, that it was going to the right direction,because it has all the potential to evolve in one of the best AS in any other DAW.

Why have as a prototype time selection in order to implement real AS? They're 2 different things the way they operate.
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Old 08-15-2020, 01:04 PM   #188
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Time Selection and Area Selection should be two different things that are used for different, albeit overlapping, purposes. AS does not need to have all the functions of TS.
Completely agree.
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Old 08-15-2020, 01:08 PM   #189
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Originally Posted by juliansader View Post
This would mean that the new feature misses the point of Area Selection completely, and the users who most vocally pleaded for Area Selection will not be happy. Poor Sexan will have to start coding again.

Time Selection and Area Selection should be two different things that are used for different, albeit overlapping, purposes. AS does not need to have all the functions of TS.

I hope that development of AS doesn't come to a premature end like Automation Items, leaving it in a semi-usable state.
Agree 100%
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Old 08-15-2020, 01:11 PM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
In real life, practical uses, what is the case for supporting area selections at multiple time positions simultaneously?
Quote:
Originally Posted by juliansader View Post
This would mean that the new feature misses the point of Area Selection completely
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrengmusic View Post
This would result in an unintuitive workflow. And make AS kinda useless for users who rely on their TS workflow.
As I said earlier, this isn't productive. He's asking for examples of things you CAN do with area selections at multiple time positions that you CAN'T do without. So he can weigh out how important those workflows are.

All I read here is that you want it and it's important. Please. Make your case with examples. This wording has little to no value.
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Old 08-15-2020, 01:39 PM   #191
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All I read here is that you want it and it's important. Please. Make your case with examples. This wording has little to no value.
Here's one more from my prior list. This involves a usage for area selection, and multiple selections eventually made over time, but they don't need to be made at the same time. Anyway, just to add to the conversation...

5. Swipe comping! I feel like area selecting over takes should: 1) break out the x axis across all takes, 2) apply crossfades behind the scenes, and 3) allow for promoting the selected area as the active take.

When I'm comping a vocal, I don't want to have to apply splits for each section then promote the take. This could be handled via area selections.

...so, probably not exactly what Schwa was talking about but tangentially related.
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Old 08-15-2020, 02:07 PM   #192
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Right now if we make a selection over 3 envelope lanes of the same track and we remove the middle selection, we now have 2 selections and we can move both of them or individually.(move one area, copy one area in both directions).
Are they any different than creating multiple time selections and are we going to lose this behavior?
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Old 08-15-2020, 02:26 PM   #193
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n997 nailed it.

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I agree that some of functionality previously associated with Time selection - like using Time selection for targeting operations on items and points - should eventually be integrated into Area selection. However, Time selection and Area selection should remain separate, in my opinion...So for what it's worth, here's +1 for keeping the possibility of making Area selections at multiple time positions.
this is what appeals to me about AS. i am not looking for additional Time Selection functionality with this feature.
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Old 08-15-2020, 02:32 PM   #194
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Area selection is a big new thing
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What we're currently planning to do is scale back the area selection functionality
It was a big new thing. But what you are saying now is, hey we can't get it to work the way we want internally so we're actually gonna make it a little new thing.

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it's clear that area selection as it's currently implemented introduces some inconsistencies in behavior that are not possible to resolve without significantly changing existing behaviors.
I understand the difficult position you are in here, but quite honestly this does not bode well for the future of Reaper. At all. If you are simply going to say every single existing behavior is sacrosanct, then you are painting yourself in a corner and Reaper can't evolve. The reality is there are existing behaviors/implementation that are outdated, that are not fully developed, that are simply there because that was how it was decided at the time and never changed.

There are too many things being added to Reaper lately that are half-finished. And as an end user that's frustrating. Yes, we have scripts that can solve *some* of the shortcomings. But half-finished solutions make it harder for both the users and the scripters both to resolve and work around. At some point, it is up to you, the devs, whether you are willing to wrestle the bear to the ground or live with half-finished from here on out.

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it's clear that area selection as it's currently implemented introduces some inconsistencies in behavior that are not possible to resolve without significantly changing existing behaviors, or else having all kinds of special case behaviors that are difficult to explain and use.
It's already inconsistent. Take mouse modifiers. Some don't have left click/drag. Some don't allow running actions. In your mind, having only marquee selection for left-drag and only area selection for right-drag is a consistent and suitable solution. But to me, not allowing the user to edit the mouse modifiers as they see fit and choose which they want to be left drag and right drag is also "inconsistent" (not to mention physically harmful). There are so many inconsistencies already baked in. So why not try and deal with some of those so that going forward this type of thing can be solved instead of just throwing in the proverbial towel and adding yet another half-finished feature?

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I'm sure a lot of users' reaction to this will be "why don't you just do X and Y," and of course that's fine and helpful, but please have some faith that we are giving this a lot of careful thought.
This isn't a faith thing. We all know and appreciate the work you put in on the daily (even if it doesn't seem like it sometimes...) This is a reality thing. And the reality is this. If you scale this back, there's never going to be a "redo". There's never going to be an attempt to solve the harder issues of AS - or even get to some of the more elegant ones. Moving forward it is just going to be what it is now with a few tweaks/fixes here and there. And that is in no way meant to offend. It's just reality. There's two of you. The plate is constantly overflowing. You aren't going to have the time or even the inclination? Why? Because it's already "good enough".

When you say you are going to just make AS a 'special case' of TS, it makes me think of all the use cases that will be left behind, all the extras users strongly petitioned for that will never be implemented. If you had come back to us and instead said, hey, we want to make this a really feature complete implementation of AS, but we need like 6 months. We'll get back to you when we've got something to discuss - I would much prefer that over your current response. One of the users commented that having something is better than nothing and I strongly disagree with that. Having this half-finished simply means I'm not going to use it or will have to work around it, the same thing I was already doing before AS showed up. I'm sincerely hoping you guys take a step back and decide whether half-finished is the right decision or whether it would be better to take the time to get under the hood, do some wrestling and get this where it needs to go - however long that takes...

Last edited by Klangfarben; 08-15-2020 at 02:38 PM.
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Old 08-15-2020, 02:38 PM   #195
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It was a big new thing. But what you are saying now is, hey we can't get it to work the way we want internally so we're actually gonna make it a little new thing.



I understand the difficult position you are in here, but quite honestly this does not bode well for the future of Reaper. At all. If you are simply going to say every single existing behavior is sacrosanct, then you are painting yourself in a corner and Reaper can't evolve. The reality is there are existing behaviors/implementation that are outdated, that are not fully developed, that are simply there because that was how it was decided at the time and never changed.

There are too many things being added to Reaper lately that are half-finished. And as an end user that's frustrating. Yes, we have scripts that can solve *some* of the shortcomings. But half-finished solutions make it harder for both the users and the scripters both to resolve and work around. At some point, it is up to you, the devs, whether you are willing to wrestle the bear to the ground or live with half-finished from here on out.



It's already inconsistent. Take mouse modifiers. Some don't have left click/drag. Some don't allow running actions. In your mind, having only marquee selection for left-drag and only area selection for right-drag is a consistent and suitable solution. But to me, not allowing the user to edit the mouse modifiers as they see fit and choose which they want to be left drag and right drag is also "inconsistent" (not to mention physically harmful). There are so many inconsistencies already baked in. So why not try and deal with some of those so that going forward this type of thing can be solved instead of just throwing in the proverbial towel and adding yet another half-finished feature?



This isn't a faith thing. We all know and appreciate the work you put in on the daily (even if it doesn't seem like it sometimes...) This is a reality thing. And the reality is this. If you scale this back, there's never going to be a "redo". There's never going to be an attempt to solve the harder issues of AS - or even get to some of the more elegant ones. Moving forward it is just going to be what it is now with a few tweaks/fixes here and there. And that is in no way meant to offend. It's just reality. There's two of you. The plate is constantly overflowing. You aren't going to have the time or even the inclination? Why? Because it's already "good enough".

When you say you are going to just make AS a 'special case' of TS, it makes me think of all the use cases that will be left behind, all the extras users strongly petitioned for that will never be implemented. If you had come back to us and instead said, hey, we want to make this a really feature complete implementation of AS, but we need like 6 months. We'll get back to you when we've got something to discuss - I would much prefer that over your current response. One of the users commented that having something is better than nothing and I strongly disagree with that. Having this half-finished simply means I'm not going to use it or will have to work around it, the same thing I was already doing before AS showed up. I'm sincerely hoping you guys take a step back and decide whether half-finished is the right decision or whether it would be better to take the time to get under the hood, do some wrestling and get this where it needs to go.
I dont mind breaking things if the new features are better.
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Old 08-15-2020, 03:01 PM   #196
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Do you need more?
Yes. That's the whole ballgame. Forget all that other stuff, just this.
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Old 08-15-2020, 03:17 PM   #197
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The scaling back will be that you can have non-contiguous area selections vertically, but not horizontally. This is a reduction in functionality, but we'd rather take smaller, more careful steps in a useful direction rather than jumping forward and ending up with a system that's inconsistent and difficult to use.
As others have said, I hope horizontal non-contiguous selections return eventually, but for now, thanks for all you do devs! Better to move mindfully than too fast.
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Old 08-15-2020, 03:25 PM   #198
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When you say you are going to just make AS a 'special case' of TS, it makes me think of all the use cases that will be left behind...
Such as...? They're specifically asking us for what use-cases are essential. Now's the time to be specific about what those may be so they can figure out how best to implement them. If you don't want the feature being abandoned, then speak up, but be specific about what you need rather than explain your frustration about unexplained use-cases being left behind.

So what are the things you WANT to be able to do with AS's that occur at multiple locations on the timeline simultaneously? What are the editing behaviors you expect to work? How should they work? How frequently do you think you'll realistically need that behavior? What edge-case scenarios can you live without?

No DAW is 100% perfect at everything. Each has different strengths and weaknesses. Area Selection in Reaper is coming but they're looking for specific stuff you specifically want to be able to do with multiple area selections over different places in the timeline. I listed a few above. Anything else?
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Old 08-15-2020, 03:52 PM   #199
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n997 nailed it.

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this is what appeals to me about AS. i am not looking for additional Time Selection functionality with this feature.
But this exact thing can be done just as easily with one extra move. With a custom action, it could be done with the same amount of moves. While this looks cool, there's really no benefit to selecting a bunch of things and THEN moving them all vs selecting and dragging each one.
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Old 08-15-2020, 03:56 PM   #200
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As I said earlier, this isn't productive. He's asking for examples of things you CAN do with area selections at multiple time positions that you CAN'T do without. So he can weigh out how important those workflows are.

All I read here is that you want it and it's important. Please. Make your case with examples. This wording has little to no value.
Use cases for multiple time I could think :

1.It would be immensely helpful for further scripts

In this script that I made https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=240730
you have to create Midi Items for "selecting time" because the user may not want it to be in a single area (the reason I not used Time selection). If there was Area selection available in multiple times and in API this practice would no longer be required. I really wished while doing it already had options to have multiple area selections.

The Vitalker Idea could be made, -> I think <-, using scripts with AS for exemple.


2. n997, and nofish already posted exemples on that:
Repetitive Editing would be less exhausting/more intuitive, and if it is long enough it would be a gain of time also.

Instead of having to alternate between tasks of selecting and doing something (like delete/copy/executing something) I can put the tasks in order ( First I will Select then I will do (delete/copy/modify...)).

It is not just a little time gain, but much more making it less exhausting by removing the need of alternate tasks.

In this exemple I needed to be SURE I was copying the envelope under items ( I know I could script it easily, or even use an already made ) so I
) 1 made the selection starting in a item and then 2 remove to get only the envelope and then 3 Copy it.

I tested making one per item It had just a little time difference almost nothing but is the need to change the task (123) per item that is really exhausting.



3. (more about AS try to fit TS)

I said in other posts, they behave differently by its volatility, TS tends to keep its place over most of action, AS after an left click disappear. after copy paste it changes place.

So I can use, as I used before, time selection to mark something, area selection... not so much.

3.2
The end of one area can be used as a Mark of the other area.

If there was not this possibility I would have to leave some marker to know where the first one ended!
------------
Other then scripts, I don't know if there are things you cannot do Without it being at multiple times. It will just be more complex to the user having to do more steps, and more exhausting having to alternate tasks (123 123 123....instead of 111....222....333..) I don't mind the learning curve be a little harder if it compensate the affordance of the user at the end. I really Like the AS now despite its bugs, I think the learning curve of reaper with AS is good.

What are the pro to not having Multiple time Area selection ? What are the other "
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inconsistencies in behavior that are not possible to resolve without significantly changing existing behaviors,
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