Track Sends Pre-Item FX

MRMJP · 07-16-2016, 11:31 AM

Coming from Pro Tools, it's already a blessing to be able to add a hardware send to a track and have it be Pre-FX but I'm wondering if it's possible for REAPER to go one step farther.

I won't explain my setup too in-depth but if it would be possible to add a hardware send to a track, have it be Pre ITEM FX as well as track FX then that would be a major resource saver on my system. As of right now, I have to use a bunch of tracks each with their own plugin chain always running. If I could apply FX to items and get a Pre-FX version out to one of my hardware outputs, that would be huge.

Any info appreciated.

BigLou · 07-18-2016, 12:49 PM

would ReaInsert 0% Wet at start of each item fx chain work?

MRMJP · 07-18-2016, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigLou

would ReaInsert 0% Wet at start of each item fx chain work?

Brilliant idea! I would need to test to be sure that ReaInsert @ 0% has no affect on the sound quality of course though in theory it shouldn't.

I did a quick test and while the idea works in practice, the the ReaInsert version is ahead by a noticeable amount due to plugin chain latency. There is also some extra buffering time added now.

I know there are some ping options but I don't want to be doing a bunch of pinging every time the plugin chain changes.

I will try a few options.

Thanks.

MRMJP · 07-28-2016, 05:36 AM

I'm still having trouble using ReaInsert at 0% as the first item FX and not getting too much latency when I flip between monitoring the main REAPER output and the ReaInsert output. It's just far enough off to make doing any A/B comparisons too hard.

I'm not surprised because there are a fair amount of plugins inserted after ReaInsert but I think that idea would work well if the sync timing could be tweaked better, and I would have to do some null tests to make sure that ReaInsert at 0% is not harming the signal at all.

MRMJP · 07-28-2016, 11:45 AM

The ReaInsert placed in the first Item FX slot, and set to 0% is so close to being the perfect solution.

I just can't get the two versions to be in sync together. The ReaInsert version is naturally slightly ahead because of the plugins that are inserted after it.

Does anybody know of a solution to get the two versions perfectly in sync as they are when I use my original method of having the FX be track FX and having a few hardware sends both pre and post FX?

Frank B · 07-29-2016, 09:17 AM

why would you need to split the signal at that point? just curious as to why some one would do this and not just have a second track with the same input.

MRMJP · 07-29-2016, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank B

why would you need to split the signal at that point? just curious as to why some one would do this and not just have a second track with the same input.

There must be some confusion. My goal is to be able to send a signal to one stereo out before any item FX, and send to two other stereo outs which is done via the Track routing.

The send Pre-Item FX send would be to monitor the audio item before any FX inserts on the item or track, just the raw audio. I want to send this to a dedicated stereo out to my monitor controller.

I can sort of do this with ReaInsert as the first item FX, set to 0% and the input/return disabled and set to INF.

The issue here is that unlike using only Track FX and a Pre-FX send, the ReaInsert Send is slightly ahead of the rest of the audio in the session so it's harder to A/B. I'm not talking about a major amount but just enough to be distracting.

BigLou · 07-31-2016, 01:42 PM

You could duplicate the track with all items/takes and remove all the plug-ins, then send out from that track.

But that's more work and an added track, and more to maintain. So not ideal.

MRMJP · 07-31-2016, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigLou

You could duplicate the track with all items/takes and remove all the plugins, then send out from that track.

But that's more work and an added track, and more to maintain. So not ideal.

Yes. This is what I have been doing using a custom track template to have the routing dialed in, but it is one more thing to set up and maintain which can get annoying if I have to replace the source file, or change the gain/level of the item.

Having a Track Sends Pre-Item FX option would mean that the item source is always mirrored to a specific output, but before any item FX.

MRMJP · 08-31-2016, 07:45 AM

Using ReaInsert as the first item FX insert and set to 0% and hardware inserts set to NONE and turned down to INF for safety measures is working OK BUT...

The timing difference is still bothering me.

To the devs:

Would it be possible to add a way to make a hardware send for an item (or a track) be before the items FX? It would be the same concept as adding a hardware output to a track and making it Pre-FX but would also allow to send audio to a hardware output before any items FX and have the audio streams remain in sync.

As I do it now, the hardware send from ReaInsert is naturally ahead because of the plugins inserted after it and possible my analog loop which routes the entire track to my analog gear and captures back on a new track.

James HE · 08-31-2016, 08:00 AM

You could use any plugin to "mult" the signal to an unused channel pair, then send that channel pair from the track to the hardware out.

MRMJP · 08-31-2016, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James HE

You could use any plugin to "mult" the signal to an unused channel pair, then send that channel pair from the track to the hardware out.

Would this be done using the plugin pin connector? The only potential problem with that is there are times when I want the plugins to be bypassed or offline, yet still have the signal being sent to the hardware output.

So, relying on a plugin pin connector to do this may not be ideal.

MRMJP · 09-07-2016, 09:21 AM

I just wanted to bump again the request to make a hardware send on a track and have it be both pre-item FX and track FX-. Basically, free from all FX related to the items and track, though any master track FX could remain of course.

I'm currently using the method of having ReaInsert as the first Item FX insert and set to 0%.

This causes some latency differences between the two audio streams. Also, sometimes when I play from the start of an item, I get an insane amount of latency difference, up to a few seconds. I can see the ReaInsert version playing to my audio interface mixer software for a couple seconds before the Reaper cursor starts to move and play normally.

Please please consider an option to have a hardware insert be both Pre-FX for both track FX and item/take FX and so that the two streams are perfectly in sync and latency compensated for any plugin inserts.

Thanks!

SonicAxiom · 09-07-2016, 05:04 PM

I have to admit that unfortunately, I'm not really getting what you are aming for, MRMJP. Do you wanna a/b anything in your project with/without any plugin processing?

I'm only a/b-ing individual items/channels/busses and the master each on its own and I'm fine with it. I see that ReaInsert can help to split signals at almost any location in the signal path but that it introduces latency. Maybe you can compensate for this by deliberately delaying everything else via something like "JS: time adjustment" but I guess that this requires manual input of the exact latency amounts and that those are not constant.

Why don't you just simply toggle bypass of all fx in question via actions?

I'm sorry, as I don't fully understand the purpose you have in mind I can't really help.

SonicAxiom · 09-07-2016, 05:10 PM

just guessing: what about duplicating your items as a new take and then inserting your fx only into the fx chain of the alternative take. you could then toggle fx on/off by toggling the items.

maybe a very weird idea, though ...

MRMJP · 09-07-2016, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SonicAxiom

I have to admit that unfortunately, I'm not really getting what you are aming for, MRMJP. Do you wanna a/b anything in your project with/without any plugin processing?

I'm only a/b-ing individual items/channels/busses and the master each on its own and I'm fine with it. I see that ReaInsert can help to split signals at almost any location in the signal path but that it introduces latency. Maybe you can compensate for this by deliberately delaying everything else via something like "JS: time adjustment" but I guess that this requires manual input of the exact latency amounts and that those are not constant.

Why don't you just simply toggle bypass of all fx in question via actions?

I'm sorry, as I don't fully understand the purpose you have in mind I can't really help.

Hi, thanks for looking into this. It's a strange setup for sure.

The reason I can't just toggle the all the item FX on and off is because after the item FX, the track the items are on are routed to a track. That track is routed to a hardware output that feeds my analog mastering gear, and then I capture back to a new track. I have this new track in record input monitor so I can hear what I'm doing. When I'm happy with the sounds, I print to the new track.

So, disabling the item FX is only a partial A/B. Creating a pre-Item-FX send always me to monitor the original audio file before any digital or analog processing.

With my old workflow, when I was putting each item on it's own track, and only using track FX, it was easy to have the alternate untouched send be "pre Track-FX" and then I had two perfectly synced audio streams. One with no digital processing, and main main stream from REAPER master output.

I stopped this workflow though because so many different tracks made for lots of wasted CPU and messy screen. Using just one track and items FX is way better, this is just the one small thing that could be better for my unique workflow.

SonicAxiom · 09-07-2016, 06:05 PM

ok, I think I'm beginning to understand ... in fact, I might have even found a suitable solution provided that I've REALLY understood your issue

you'd have to create a dedicated "pre-fx-soloing"-track that is not routed to the master but only to your resp. soloing hardware output. Then, set every track whose fx should be soloed to 4-channel and create sends to the soloing track from each track in question. Choose Audio 3/4 as the sending channels everywhere. Now, put "JS: Volume Adjustment" as the first plugin in every item and set it to have 4 ins/ous in the pin connector. Pins have to be set up as shown below (only for the JS-plugin, all other plugins have "normal" pins):

You can now toggle pre-fx-soloing for any channel via the routing window of the dedicated soloing bus track by unmuting it there. Maybe one can optimize this approach. It just came to mind now.

Is this what you were aiming for?

PS: There's no ReaInsert involved, latency is a non-issue as far as I can tell and it's working across tracks also, not only items.

MRMJP · 09-07-2016, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SonicAxiom

ok, I think I'm beginning to understand ... in fact, I might have even found a suitable solution provided that I've REALLY understood your issue

you'd have to create a dedicated "pre-fx-soloing"-track that is not routed to the master but only to your resp. soloing hardware output. Then, set every track whose fx should be soloed to 4-channel and create sends to the soloing track from each track in question. Choose Audio 3/4 as the sending channels everywhere. Now, put "JS: Volume Adjustment" as the first plugin in every item and set it to have 4 ins/ous in the pin connector. Pins have to be set up as shown below (only for the JS-plugin, all other plugins have "normal" pins):

You can now toggle pre-fx-soloing for any channel via the routing window of the dedicated soloing bus track by unmuting it there. Maybe one can optimize this approach. It just came to mind now.

Is this what you were aiming for?

PS: There's no ReaInsert involved, latency is a non-issue as far as I can tell and it's working across tracks also, not only items.

Thanks! I think between this and what I was working on before you typed it, I might be getting very close. I need to better understand what the plugin pinning does.

Basically, I think the plan is to use the very first plugin insert, and send that to another aux track. This sends the audio from that plugin only and doesn't include any plugins that follow. Then I route that new aux track to the desired alternate hardware output.

Do I have to use JS: Volume Adjustment or can I use my other first inserted plugin? Is there something special about JS: Volume Adjustment that makes it work better?

So far, the only potential issues I see with this is if I copy a plugin chain from one item to another, the plugin pin status doesn't seem to copy. Is this true?

SonicAxiom · 09-07-2016, 06:33 PM

I can copy the chains without losing pin routing.

First plugin in the chain has to be 4 in/out. It seems that not every plugin is programmed that way. As long as you keep the two sliders on 0 dB JS volume is inexistent to the audio data passing through it.

Frank B · 09-07-2016, 06:37 PM

here is a plugin you can insert first on the "item" fx chain.
then place the receive on a track for monitoring.

https://stash.reaper.fm/v/26394/JRgmemSendv1.zip

unzip and place the folder in the REAPER effects folder and it should show up.

plugin is called JRgemsend in fx browser

edit: i fixed that issue i thought i had with it..

MRMJP · 09-07-2016, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SonicAxiom

I can copy the chains without losing pin routing.

First plugin in the chain has to be 4 in/out. It seems that not every plugin is programmed that way. As long as you keep the two sliders on 0 dB JS volume is inexistent to the audio data passing through it.

Thanks! What method do you use to copy and paste the FX chains? It seems that when I paste the desired chain, the pin routing is lost.

For example, on my first item, I have this routing working properly. Then, if I copy the item FX and paste to the next item, JS volume is back to 2 in 2 out instead of 4 in/out.

MRMJP · 09-07-2016, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank B

here is a plugin you can insert first on the "item" fx chain.
then place the receive on a track for monitoring.

https://stash.reaper.fm/v/26394/JRgmemSendv1.zip

known issue i have, when placed on items it doesn't count the PDC so you will always hear it first and then the mix.

unzip and place the folder in the REAPER effects folder and it should show up.

Thanks, I will look at this one too.

SonicAxiom · 09-07-2016, 06:43 PM

i just drag-and-drop the selected chain from one fx window to the other.

It also works if I save the fx chain and then load it into another item.

MRMJP · 09-07-2016, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SonicAxiom

i just drag-and-drop the selected chain from one fx window to the other.

It also works if I save the fx chain and then load it into another item.

Ah, you're right. Dragging to the next item does preserve the pin connections. However, interesting that a traditional copy and paste of the item FX chain doesn't preserve the pin routing. Can you confirm that?

Also, saving and reloading isn't a realistic option for my workflow.

I was using the SWS/S&M option to Copy FX Chain from selected item and the paste to selected items.

It seems that the SWS and normal copy/paste don't preserve the pin connections. Weird right?

SonicAxiom · 09-07-2016, 06:54 PM

well, it's nothing new that Reaper can be weird at times ...

but generally it behaves

MRMJP · 09-07-2016, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SonicAxiom

well, it's nothing new that Reaper can be weird at times ...

but generally it behaves

Right, but can you reproduce that behavior? If so, I may see if it can be fixed so copy/paste item FX chain copies the pin settings just as dragging does.

SonicAxiom · 09-07-2016, 07:03 PM

just came across an even simpler method as far as I can see (works well if items don't overlap!):

instead of JS just insert ReaStream as the first plugin on every item and set it to send audio via local broadcast and select "2" for the no. of audio channels. No pin connector settings to be made, no routing either!

Then, insert ReaStream on the dedicated solo bus track and set it to receive. Voilà!

PS: I can't seem to be able to reproduce your pin issue.

PPS: ReaStream seems to introduce a little bit of latency and sometimes fails to process audio immediately.

MRMJP · 09-07-2016, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SonicAxiom

just came across an even simpler method as far as I can see (works well if items don't overlap!):

instead of JS just insert ReaStream as the first plugin on every item and set it to send audio via local broadcast and select "2" for the no. of audio channels. No pin connector settings to be made, no routing either!

Then, insert ReaStream on the dedicated solo bus track and set it to receive. Voilà!

PS: I can't seem to be able to reproduce your pin issue.

Thanks, I'll try this also but I can't seem to get the receive side to work.

Also, here's a video of the copy/paste FX to item where the pin settings are not remembered. Other than that, this option is working best and my favorite solution as it doesn't require and unnecessary plugin:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4h8czwltmw...X_pin.mov?dl=0

SonicAxiom · 09-07-2016, 07:22 PM

mac issue? I'm on windows, hehe!

just kidding, don't know what's happening over there. It's working fine here.

ReaStream issue may be due to firewall setting as it's an ip transmission. But I have no real idea.

ReaStream solution for your problem is easiest method to set up as no pin routing and no other routing is required - just ReaStream to send (per item) and one instance as a receiver.

PS: It's getting early here (4.30 am), so ... good night!

MRMJP · 09-07-2016, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SonicAxiom

mac issue? I'm on windows, hehe!

just kidding, don't know what's happening over there. It's working fine here.

ReaStream issue may be due to firewall setting as it's an ip transmission. But I have no real idea.

ReaStream solution for your problem is easiest method to set up as no pin routing and no other routing is required - just ReaStream to send (per item) and one instance as a receiver.

Thanks, I'll check this. I don't have overlapping items exactly, but there could be times where an item is split and therefor crossfaded. Do you think that's a problem?

ReaStream seems OK as long as it's not adding a lot of CPU/latency which is what I like about the pin option. Maybe it's a Mac issue there.

ReaStream also seems similar to the mentioned JRgemsend plugin which I tried but the audio was very unstable and glitchy and I haven't got time at the moment to troubleshoot that.

SonicAxiom · 09-08-2016, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank B

here is a plugin you can insert first on the "item" fx chain.
then place the receive on a track for monitoring.

https://stash.reaper.fm/v/26394/JRgmemSendv1.zip

unzip and place the folder in the REAPER effects folder and it should show up.

plugin is called JRgemsend in fx browser

edit: i fixed that issue i thought i had with it..

did you design this plugin? It is really great for the task and I'm trying to imagine what other great uses it may have for me but I found an issue with it: the sound of the receiving track is sometimes distorted. Oddly, distortion goes away as soon as I insert a second copy of the same plugin instance in the receiving track. Other than that, it is perfect!

MRMJP · 09-08-2016, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SonicAxiom

did you design this plugin? It is really great for the task and I'm trying to imagine what other great uses it may have for me but I found an issue with it: the sound of the receiving track is sometimes distorted. Oddly, distortion goes away as soon as I insert a second copy of the same plugin instance in the receiving track. Other than that, it is perfect!

Yes, I was also noticing some bad distorted/glitchy audio on the receiving end as well. I didn't troubleshoot too far.

MRMJP · 09-08-2016, 06:47 PM

@SonicAxiom

Thanks for your help on this. The plugin pinning is by far the best way to do what I'm looking for. My first inserted plugin is so minimal that it's an OK place to do it, and no need to add JS Volume set to 0.

Anyway, I'm sending to 3/4 from the pin connectors and then a special track receives 3/4 and sends that to the desired hardware output. So essentially, I'm hearing the raw audio before any serious plugin work and without any of my analog gear. The sync between the two streams seems nearly perfect, way better than ReaInsert which I know was not designed for how I was using it.

My only hangup is something I hope can be addressed with an added preference, but it seems that copy/pasting a plugin chain or even saving the preset and opening on a new item doesn't load the pin connectors settings. For now, this is still the best option but it will be nice if that preference could be added.

Much appreciation for your time.

SonicAxiom · 09-08-2016, 07:10 PM

your welcome, Justin! Glad that you've now got a usable solution. I'm hoping that the pin loading glitch will be adressed soon for you. As I said before, it seems to work properly here.

All in all, it's been a successful day for us then. I managed to sync transport of 3 laptops now running together as one "aggretate system" sample accurately (!) when I hit play on laptop 1. This allows bringing together the "modular" work of me and 2 collegues on one common project when they come by with their laptops:-)

MRMJP · 09-08-2016, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SonicAxiom

your welcome, Justin! Glad that you've now got a usable solution. I'm hoping that the pin loading glitch will be adressed soon for you. As I said before, it seems to work properly here.

All in all, it's been a successful day for us then. I managed to sync transport of 3 laptops now running together as one "aggretate system" sample accurately (!) when I hit play on laptop 1. This allows bringing together the "modular" work of me and 2 collegues on one common project when they come by with their laptops:-)

Yes. After further review, whether I drag the FX chain, copy/paste, or save as a preset and load on a new item on the same track, the new FX chain is just the two channels. I have to always press the + sign to increase to 4 channels on that first plugin. What's interesting is that when I do that, the pins are already properly routed like I want them.

I hope something can be changed with a preference or behind the scenes tweak.

That sounds like a crazy accomplishment getting two systems to sync down to the sample. Congrats on that.

SonicAxiom · 09-08-2016, 07:50 PM

it wasn't just 2 pc's, it were 3!
It has been surprisingly easy to get it to work really. And it would work with almost any no. of pc's just as easily :-)

mschnell · 09-08-2016, 10:25 PM

IMHO, this would be even a lot easier and more intuitive with the implementation of a "Remote" variant of Subprojects

-Michael

MRMJP · 09-23-2016, 04:08 PM

Well, the plugin pinning worked well until I realized that if I'm blending an FX insert to less than 100% wet, that sometimes there can be some weird phasing or latency issues.

I don't think it's a routing issue because it was happening randomly, usually after a quick move of the edit cursor and play, it's as if REAPER didn't have time to buffer correctly. I reported as a bug but didn't get any response.

So for now, I have reverted to making a custom action that pops copies of all the items down to a new track that is routed to the desired alternate output.

It would be nice to not manage two tracks if anything changes but so far, it's the most reasonable and trustworthy option.

I would still like to vote for an option that allows addition hardware outputs to be sent Pre-Item-FX as well as Pre-Track-FX.

Hippocratic Mastering · 10-18-2016, 03:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MRMJP

Well, the plugin pinning worked well until I realized that if I'm blending an FX insert to less than 100% wet, that sometimes there can be some weird phasing or latency issues.

I don't think it's a routing issue because it was happening randomly, usually after a quick move of the edit cursor and play, it's as if REAPER didn't have time to buffer correctly. I reported as a bug but didn't get any response.

So for now, I have reverted to making a custom action that pops copies of all the items down to a new track that is routed to the desired alternate output.

It would be nice to not manage two tracks if anything changes but so far, it's the most reasonable and trustworthy option.

I would still like to vote for an option that allows addition hardware outputs to be sent Pre-Item-FX as well as Pre-Track-FX.

+1. For us mastering engineers it would be a great, and obvious, feature.

MRMJP · 10-18-2016, 05:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hippocratic Mastering

+1. For us mastering engineers it would be a great, and obvious, feature.

I would agree. I think more professional mastering engineers would start to use REAPER more if some of these things were added. As great as REAPER is, I still move over to WaveLab to finalize masters, or if I am mastering all "in the box", I still prefer WaveLab. The strength of REAPER is doing the analog play/capture of the mastering process with some plugins inserted before going analog.

I thought for sure the plugin pin was a great solution for having a pure and unprocessed version of an item to send to my monitor controller to A/B, until I learned that there are severe and random latency problems when you start using the plugin pin connectors to multiple a signal when you have some of the FX blends set to less than 100%

I don't know why or have time to investigate any further right now but even though I stopped using the pin connector method, sometimes I'll add an FX insert and for some reason, it activates more pins and the the latency/phase problems comes back severely. As soon as I revert back to just the two pins, everything is fine again.