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Old 03-19-2018, 03:18 PM   #1
deeb
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Default unfreezing does not try to keep freezed item length or startoffset

unfreezing does not try to keep freezed item length or item start offset
which, limits the full potential of the freezing feature. Please fix it!

example of item length bad behaviour:



when freezing the length is also not correctly reflected.



thank you

Last edited by deeb; 03-20-2018 at 04:32 PM.
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Old 03-20-2018, 04:32 PM   #2
deeb
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does anyone confirm this?

Last edited by deeb; 03-20-2018 at 04:43 PM.
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Old 03-21-2018, 01:08 AM   #3
azslow3
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The first - yes.
Resulting rendered item has "FREEZE" option (in RPP). I guess the bug is forgetting to remove it once the item is unlocked. In fact it is still present when the item is copied to another track.

While freezed content is preserved correctly, when the track is unfrozen, source items are moved/duplicated to the new position of manipulated rendered item(s).

The second - I do not understand. It seems like normal "tail" for me, there is a setting in preferences.

But I will add the third:
if tempo is changed after freezing MIDI items, after unfreeze the result is inconsistent. Position and length of items was preserved in time domain, but MIDI events are written in ticks, so they are not restored with original time position.

Consistent will be:
a) unfreeze restore the same picture as you get in case you change tempo without freezing, so frozen items with musical references still should change on tempo.
b) unfreeze restore absolute MIDI event time. That could be a nice feature, but I guess not possible to implement without introduction of MIDI items format change (the possibility to specify even time in seconds).
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Old 03-21-2018, 07:46 AM   #4
deeb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azslow3 View Post
The first - yes.
Resulting rendered item has "FREEZE" option (in RPP). I guess the bug is forgetting to remove it once the item is unlocked. In fact it is still present when the item is copied to another track.
Thank you! I don't think it as to do with the lock. Since being locked or unlocked the result is the same.
Fact is: not working smooth : )


Quote:
Originally Posted by azslow3 View Post
The second - I do not understand. It seems like normal "tail" for me, there is a setting in preferences.
will check it! but this is just a bit annoying, but doesn't limit the full feature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by azslow3 View Post
But I will add the third:
if tempo is changed after freezing MIDI items, after unfreeze the result is inconsistent. Position and length of items was preserved in time domain, but MIDI events are written in ticks, so they are not restored with original time position.

Consistent will be:
a) unfreeze restore the same picture as you get in case you change tempo without freezing, so frozen items with musical references still should change on tempo.
b) unfreeze restore absolute MIDI event time. That could be a nice feature, but I guess not possible to implement without introduction of MIDI items format change (the possibility to specify even time in seconds).

i am not familiar with some terms ! but it's a nice addition and will try it later

Now i'll had a fourth:

adding item fx on freezed item gets lost when unfreezing:



anyone confirms this one?

off topic: All this issues + a freezed state icon/sign in track (TCP) == infinite level of freezing/ unfreezing in 1 track and in real flexible way! == Awesome!

Last edited by deeb; 03-21-2018 at 08:03 AM.
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Old 03-21-2018, 10:30 AM   #5
azslow3
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For the lock... I probably was too "technical". That was thought as a hint for developers

After Freeze, Reaper "render" a new item(s). That is what you see in frozen tracks. In respect to the the track, they are (and should be) artificial. After unfreeze, this item and any other new items (with everything, including FXes) are deleted and original items restored. So "bug 4" does not look like a bug for me.


Note that you freeze THE TRACK, not individual items. You can render individual items, check "Apply track/take FX as..." item actions.

---
If you are not tired from technical details...

These "frozen" items get a special flag, "FREEZE". It is not visible in Reaper. And it distinguish rendered items from other items you may put on frozen track.
I can only guess about this flag origin: leftover or half made "feature". F.e. if you just duplicate frozen item into another place and then unfreeze, you kind of get duplicated original items. So you automatically get "the source" of what you have constructed in frozen track. That can be called "a feature", is not it?

In any case, once that item is "unlocked" and modified, except duplication "as is" at other place, the "feature" produce mess since "the source" in general can not be modified to produce resulting modified frozen item(s).

So as a "bug fix" I propose to remove "FREEZE" flag from the item as soon as it is unlocked (and from copies to another tracks).
I have "tested" that editing RPP files (in text editor) and then everything works as expected.
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Old 03-21-2018, 11:57 AM   #6
deeb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azslow3 View Post
After Freeze, Reaper "render" a new item(s). That is what you see in frozen tracks. In respect to the the track, they are (and should be) artificial. After unfreeze, this item and any other new items (with everything, including FXes) are deleted and original items restored. So "bug 4" does not look like a bug for me.

Note that you freeze THE TRACK, not individual items. You can render individual items, check "Apply track/take FX as..." item actions.
Thanks! yes it is not a bug, it 's just a non existent feature.

Reaper does a very nice job of trying to unfreeze THE TRACK keeping the edits meanwhile done in freezed state.

Adding an Fx to an item is just one more "edit", and coherently, when THE TRACK is unfreezed reaper could try to keep this editing too

Quote:
Originally Posted by azslow3 View Post

If you are not tired from technical details...

These "frozen" items get a special flag, "FREEZE". It is not visible in Reaper. And it distinguish rendered items from other items you may put on frozen track.
I can only guess about this flag origin: leftover or half made "feature". F.e. if you just duplicate frozen item into another place and then unfreeze, you kind of get duplicated original items. So you automatically get "the source" of what you have constructed in frozen track. That can be called "a feature", is not it?
Absolutely, this is a greatly developed thing ! as i was saying, it is just a pitty this small unfinished things. I say small because the complex stuff seems already done : )

example:


Quote:
Originally Posted by azslow3 View Post
In any case, once that item is "unlocked" and modified, except duplication "as is" at other place, the "feature" produce mess since "the source" in general can not be modified to produce resulting modified frozen item(s).

So as a "bug fix" I propose to remove "FREEZE" flag from the item as soon as it is unlocked (and from copies to another tracks).
I have "tested" that editing RPP files (in text editor) and then everything works as expected.
not sure everything said! hope

Last edited by deeb; 03-21-2018 at 07:45 PM.
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Old 03-22-2018, 05:40 AM   #7
azslow3
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I think I forgot to mention a simple workaround for original "bug 1":
after unlocking the time, "Glue" it. The result is completely new item, "free" from any history, including freezing.
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Old 03-22-2018, 07:13 AM   #8
deeb
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ohh, but my dream would be ability to Freeze / Add Item Fx or Track Fx / Duplicate / Slice (offset) unfreeze in a single track.

Meanwhile i concluded: that nothing was really done by Cockos in this direction. Just exact duplicates are being cared... : (
i'll have to do a feature request.

Last edited by deeb; 03-22-2018 at 07:46 AM.
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Old 03-22-2018, 09:19 AM   #9
azslow3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deeb View Post
ohh, but my dream would be ability to Freeze / Add Item Fx or Track Fx / Duplicate / Slice (offset) unfreeze in a single track.

Meanwhile i concluded: that nothing was really done by Cockos in this direction. Just exact duplicates are being cared... : (
i'll have to do a feature request.
I have mentioned before, you are currently freezing tracks but try to modify items. May be you get better experience with items level rendering to different take for that. You get:
* no track global behavior when unfreezing
* items stay in boundaries
* you can copy/paste/move/shape items as usual
You can return to any previous take any time, copy FXes from future (rendered) takes, etc.

When adding Track FXes, they are preserved after unfreezing. Since that is logically strait forward and produce correct result.

When unfreezing track, FX added to the rendered Take in general has no good place to be restored.
Before freeze: Original Item -> Take FX -> Track FX -> output
After freeze: (Original Item->Take FX->Track FX) rendered -> output
Adding take FX: (Original Item->Take FX->Track FX) rendered -> New Take FX -> output

After unfreeze, "New Take FX" should be after (original) Track FX to have the same effect, but only in time range of rendered item. In can not be in the Take of source items, it will be executed before Track FX then. And it can not be Track promoted, since it will work for the whole track then.
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Old 03-22-2018, 09:46 AM   #10
deeb
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ok azslow3 : ) ! thank you for workflow description and care !
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