Old 10-01-2020, 02:55 AM   #201
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While he works on all these firmware and screens info, I will be designing the case. I have been thinking about ways to not have to have 4 standoffs per encoder. 24x4= 96 standoffs + the buttons board would require another 6, and the main board another 6. That is 106 standoffs per unit. Each standoff adds price to the case, so I've been racking my brain how to do it cheaper.
Is it possible to mount the encoders on a larger sub-board / panel and attach that to the case with a lot fewer standoffs ?

Just be careful not to use too few and get problems with the panel flexing too much.
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Old 10-01-2020, 03:07 AM   #202
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Is it possible to mount the encoders on a larger sub-board / panel and attach that to the case with a lot fewer standoffs ?

Just be careful not to use too few and get problems with the panel flexing too much.
I might be able to mount them just with the encoders attached to their specified holes, but I want to test that theory when they get here.

I'm also thinking about rails that they can either slide in, or snap onto and just mount the rails on the stand offs, but again, need to test viability of this.

This was one thing I overlooked when wanting to have these individually made in order to be able to replace each one should one fail, rather than a whole row, or the entire board. And also wanting to have the flexibility to change their spacing after the fact, and also be able to fit different controllers should I decide to make different layouts. I'm sure I'll figure something out.

Thank you for the suggestion. I'll take a look at it.
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Old 10-02-2020, 12:50 AM   #203
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Has anyone taken a midifighter Twister apart ? They‘re very tough.
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Old 10-09-2020, 11:56 PM   #204
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Have you seen this?

https://www.musicradar.com/news/the-...utside-the-box

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Old 10-10-2020, 12:26 AM   #205
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I saw this on another thread (maybe on Gearslutz) can't remember. Just saw the image and didn't click on it as I didn't have time back then. I just went and saw their site and videos. The price is pretty good (at leas for pre-orders) but then again, they are using one large screen and that is most likely lowering their cost and complexity of build. It looks very interesting, but I'm not sure I would like such a huge screen on my desk and don't like the idea of encoders all around the large screen.

There was another controller I discovered during the same research rabbit hole, but I also didn't investigate that one either. At some point, I will, but now I'm so far invested on this project, that I just have to see it through. I also think that my controller will be more familiar with people and as I have stated, if it works, I plan to create more modules. So, creating more of an eco-system than just a one-off product.

The tricky part and where the magic will happen has to be on the software side of things. In order for it to really catch on, I'll have to port it to other DAWs. Otherwise it is a very limited product. In Reaper we have CSI, but not sure how it will port to other DAWs. I'll have to see how to do that.

Thanks for sharing though, it's good to see what others are doing.
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Old 10-10-2020, 04:01 AM   #206
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Has anyone taken a midifighter Twister apart ? They‘re very tough.
We did last year, as well as an Ableton Push 2 to assess the build costs and form a comparison for some products.

Both my Twister and Push survived I am pleased to say as they see a lot of use.
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Old 10-10-2020, 04:43 AM   #207
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We did last year, as well as an Ableton Push 2 to assess the build costs and form a comparison for some products.

Both my Twister and Push survived I am pleased to say as they see a lot of use.
Not that it would change what I'm doing, but I'd love to see pics and hear what your conclusions were.
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Old 10-10-2020, 09:55 AM   #208
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...
There was another controller I discovered during the same research rabbit hole, but I also didn't investigate that one either. At some point, I will, but now I'm so far invested on this project, that I just have to see it through...
Was it this one?
https://electra.one/
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Old 10-10-2020, 09:59 AM   #209
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Was it this one?
https://electra.one/
Bingo. Yup. That was the one. Ill take a look at this one as well.
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Old 10-10-2020, 10:01 AM   #210
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I know you're not certain yet regarding pricing, but that MP MIDI controller looks like it's going to be @ $840 US dollars shipped. Still awaiting some answers to a few concerns regarding it's workflow, but definitely a contender for me. But price is certainly a factor to consider. Do you think yours will end up falling above or below that price point?
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Old 10-10-2020, 10:12 AM   #211
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I know you're not certain yet regarding pricing, but that MP MIDI controller looks like it's going to be @ $840 US dollars shipped. Still awaiting some answers to a few concerns regarding it's workflow, but definitely a contender for me. But price is certainly a factor to consider. Do you think yours will end up falling above or below that price point?
Well, that is actually a similar price I'm looking at. At least for version 1. I'm trying to see if I can keep it lower but not sure. Was hoping I could keep it at $750-$800. It all depends on the case now. I'm investigating the best method to make the case. Due to the number of screws needed inside, I might make the cover similar to a unibody apple laptop.

I'm going to get a prototype 3d printed soon. So I'll have pictures of the whole thing soon.
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Old 10-10-2020, 10:17 AM   #212
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Well, that is actually a similar price I'm looking at. At least for version 1. I'm trying to see if I can keep it lower but not sure. Was hoping I could keep it at $750-$800. It all depends on the case now. I'm investigating the best method to make the case. Due to the number of screws needed inside, I might make the cover similar to a unibody apple laptop.

I'm going to get a prototype 3d printed soon. So I'll have pictures of the whole thing soon.
Cool.
I'm also keen to see how you approach the communication protocol for scribble strips in other DAWs.
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Old 10-10-2020, 11:39 AM   #213
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Cool.
I'm also keen to see how you approach the communication protocol for scribble strips in other DAWs.
What would you say the list of most popular DAWs is in terms of needing an FX controller board?

I would venture to guess that ProTools is #1 on that list, but not sure about others?

I'll certainly focus on Reaper 1st, but once that is working, I really need to work on other DAWs so that it has a larger audience. Unfortunately, as great as Reaper is, it doesn't have a large market share of the industry.
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Old 10-12-2020, 01:57 PM   #214
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What would you say the list of most popular DAWs is in terms of needing an FX controller board?

I would venture to guess that ProTools is #1 on that list, but not sure about others?

I'll certainly focus on Reaper 1st, but once that is working, I really need to work on other DAWs so that it has a larger audience. Unfortunately, as great as Reaper is, it doesn't have a large market share of the industry.
Hey siniarch - I'm crossing over from that other thread in GS:
I'm thinking something compatible with MCU would be the way to go for cross-platform functionality. There's a user in that other thread by the name of Quetz that has been developing software for expanding the capabilities of the Behringer Xtouch console. He seems to have become quite the expert on what MCU is capable of, claiming that it's potential has never truly been fully realized (which I'd believe honestly). It might be worthwhile to get in touch with him.

Right now my main DAW is Studio One, but you'd be right about ProTools being the leader in the unfulfilled need for cost effective external controller hardware. Unfortunately, the only two ways into that would be through either the old Mackie Control standard (which is terrible), or through Eucon (which costs money to license). The developer of that new MP MIDI controller has cleverly come up with the idea of a plugin wrapper to handle the communication issue, but I doubt you'd want to go down that road... unless you do. :-)
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Old 10-12-2020, 02:31 PM   #215
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Hey siniarch - I'm crossing over from that other thread in GS:
I'm thinking something compatible with MCU would be the way to go for cross-platform functionality. There's a user in that other thread by the name of Quetz that has been developing software for expanding the capabilities of the Behringer Xtouch console. He seems to have become quite the expert on what MCU is capable of, claiming that it's potential has never truly been fully realized (which I'd believe honestly). It might be worthwhile to get in touch with him.

Right now my main DAW is Studio One, but you'd be right about ProTools being the leader in the unfulfilled need for cost effective external controller hardware. Unfortunately, the only two ways into that would be through either the old Mackie Control standard (which is terrible), or through Eucon (which costs money to license). The developer of that new MP MIDI controller has cleverly come up with the idea of a plugin wrapper to handle the communication issue, but I doubt you'd want to go down that road... unless you do. :-)
Hello Mr. Green,
Thanks for joining this discussion as well. I've seen what Quetz has done. Not in the sense that I have studied it thoroughly, but saw his site quickly and read some of his replies somewhere. Very interesting stuff.
And I see what you mean by adopting MCU to make it more compatible. I may just do that. Although I feel following MCU closely is really more important when dealing with transport controls and similar things. But not sure how standard encoders/push buttons/touch are to MCU. But will certainly take a look.
As for the FX plugin wrapper, that's certainly clever, but not something I'm contemplating at the moment. I'd like my controller to be able to control other aspects of the daw if the user desires. Not just plugins.
Finally, there is ProTools, not sure how much the Eucon licensing would be. But I'm skeptical that Avid would license cheaply and the thought that at any point they could revoke the licensing is a huge concern. So, unless I find a more open protocol to use, it might not come to fruition. Time will tell.
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Old 10-12-2020, 02:49 PM   #216
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Hello Mr. Green,
Thanks for joining this discussion as well. I've seen what Quetz has done. Not in the sense that I have studied it thoroughly, but saw his site quickly and read some of his replies somewhere. Very interesting stuff.
And I see what you mean by adopting MCU to make it more compatible. I may just do that. Although I feel following MCU closely is really more important when dealing with transport controls and similar things. But not sure how standard encoders/push buttons/touch are to MCU. But will certainly take a look.
As for the FX plugin wrapper, that's certainly clever, but not something I'm contemplating at the moment. I'd like my controller to be able to control other aspects of the daw if the user desires. Not just plugins.
Finally, there is ProTools, not sure how much the Eucon licensing would be. But I'm skeptical that Avid would license cheaply and the thought that at any point they could revoke the licensing is a huge concern. So, unless I find a more open protocol to use, it might not come to fruition. Time will tell.
The MCU thing would just be to get the DAW and the hardware talking. The rules beyond that I think are pretty much whatever you want (in MCU/MIDI hexadecimal terms).
Yeah - I wouldn't mess with the Pro Tools thing either. :-p
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Old 10-12-2020, 03:19 PM   #217
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siniarch,
How does your surface map to plugins in Reaper currently? Can it be done "on the fly" while the plugin is open and in use, or does it require a configuration file to be created in advance?
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Old 10-12-2020, 03:48 PM   #218
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siniarch,
How does your surface map to plugins in Reaper currently? Can it be done "on the fly" while the plugin is open and in use, or does it require a configuration file to be created in advance?
I'll be using CSI. So a file will have to be created beforehand. But I'll be mapping those myself for basic work. If people want to customize it, they will be able to do so. I will also contact manufacturers to provide me either their plugin or information so that I may map their plugins.
I'll also be taking requests from clients in case they have a plugin that hasn't been mapped that they need. And I'll do my best to map that.
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Old 10-12-2020, 05:49 PM   #219
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I wouldn’t even look at pro tools for a project like this. It’s hui or eucon. And they aren’t going to share eucon with you.
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Old 10-12-2020, 10:47 PM   #220
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I wouldn’t even look at pro tools for a project like this. It’s hui or eucon. And they aren’t going to share eucon with you.
Yeah, that's what I figured. Even if I were to find out how to communicate with Eucon, if I provided that, they would probably send a cease and desist letter.
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Old 10-13-2020, 05:35 AM   #221
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The thing is, prod tools (avid) is a hardware manufacturer, in particular control surfaces. They have a lock on their protocol so that only they can produce a eucon controller. They have controllers available. That’s not the market needing your controller. All the other daws support mcu. This is where you should direct your energy.
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Old 10-13-2020, 05:45 AM   #222
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Yeah, that's what I figured. Even if I were to find out how to communicate with Eucon, if I provided that, they would probably send a cease and desist letter.
Yes, my understanding is that if anyone wants to use the Eucon protocol in their DAW, they'll happily let you incorporate it so they can sell more hardware. But unlike MCU, they won't like anyone else create Eucon hardware.
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Old 10-13-2020, 12:46 PM   #223
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I do have to ask though; why not HUI?
From what I understand (and I may be mistaken here), they pretty much share the same capabilities (I know MCU was modified directly from HUI). The biggest restrictions were in the hardware itself. No acceleration, limited number of controls could be shown at once, parameters couldn't be moved or reassigned. All of these things are easily addressed by hardware features that could be implemented here. If this thing were to take the age old HUI protocol and make it robust, usable, and customizable in the Pro Tools universe, I doubt the demand for such a product could even be fully met.

Just a thought.
I stand to be corrected. ;-)
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Old 10-13-2020, 01:00 PM   #224
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I do have to ask though; why not HUI?
From what I understand (and I may be mistaken here), they pretty much share the same capabilities (I know MCU was modified directly from HUI). The biggest restrictions were in the hardware itself. No acceleration, limited number of controls could be shown at once, parameters couldn't be moved or reassigned. All of these things are easily addressed by hardware features that could be implemented here. If this thing were to take the age old HUI protocol and make it robust, usable, and customizable in the Pro Tools universe, I doubt the demand for such a product could even be fully met.

Just a thought.
I stand to be corrected. ;-)
Well, this is something I will consider and investigate. If it can be done, I don't see why I wouldn't when I start implementing other DAWS.

As always, I'll keep you posted.
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Old 10-14-2020, 01:30 PM   #225
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hey there, i can see this starting to take shape. I haven't read through everything yet but one thing came to mind about this development that maybe a good direction or not. Would you consider making this type of thing modular in some way? meaning, being able to have multiple units strung together in some way, nested/stacking perhaps? Similar to the way surfaces have 8 fader extensions?
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Old 10-14-2020, 01:49 PM   #226
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hey there, i can see this starting to take shape. I haven't read through everything yet but one thing came to mind about this development that maybe a good direction or not. Would you consider making this type of thing modular in some way? meaning, being able to have multiple units strung together in some way, nested/stacking perhaps? Similar to the way surfaces have 8 fader extensions?
Oh man, you dont know the half of it. Send me a PM with your email and I'll send you the big vision. Of course this module has to become successful in order to invest the profits into the development of the other modules.
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Old 10-15-2020, 09:43 AM   #227
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Oh man, you dont know the half of it. Send me a PM with your email and I'll send you the big vision. Of course this module has to become successful in order to invest the profits into the development of the other modules.
ok, sent!
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Old 10-15-2020, 09:55 AM   #228
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ok, sent!
Just Replied.

Thanks for the interest.
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Old 10-19-2020, 12:52 AM   #229
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Default Testing Firmware

Doing some initial test of firmware to make sure things are working well. If everything goes well, we'll be uploading firmware to encoders that will allow them to output Midi Code. The OLED screen firmware is still in the works. But if this works, we basically would have a 24 encoder unit that could start controlling Reaper through CSI.
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Old 10-19-2020, 07:12 AM   #230
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Doing some initial test of firmware to make sure things are working well. If everything goes well, we'll be uploading firmware to encoders that will allow them to output Midi Code. The OLED screen firmware is still in the works. But if this works, we basically would have a 24 encoder unit that could start controlling Reaper through CSI.
Lookin' good !!

Of course this is just a mock up, but in the production unit is it possible to tighten things up a bit to make a smaller form factor, especially top to bottom spacing, but also a bit left to right ?
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Old 10-19-2020, 09:17 AM   #231
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Lookin' good !!

Of course this is just a mock up, but in the production unit is it possible to tighten things up a bit to make a smaller form factor, especially top to bottom spacing, but also a bit left to right ?
Unfortunately, it's pretty tight inside. Currently the size of the case will be 10.5" x 7.5" or so. Also, if you are looking at the encoder which has the black knob, you can imagine that if all the encoders had knobs, you wouldn't want them any closer width wise. Top to bottom, you could get them closer without it affecting the ergonomics of it, but not sure how much more we could grind out the height of the unit. Also, on my mock up, the screens are a little lower than they should be. I was going by the design files, and it seems that the manufacturer placed the screen a few mm above where the design cad file had them. Which I think it's ok, so it gives you a little more room between the knob and the screen. And the knob is not interfering with the screen content.

I will find out if there is anything we can do to minimize the height, but it might be difficult.

Here are some photos next to my Icon QCon Pro G2 for comparison. I took the liberty to photoshop out the cardboard box and just show what the top plate size of the unit would be. I think the cardboard box is deceptive. The unit's top plate would be the size of the white area.



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Old 10-19-2020, 09:46 AM   #232
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And here's a VIDEO of the unit starting up.

http://www.siniarch.com/SiniControll...01_startup.mp4

As you can tell, 2 encoders are booting up slower than the rest. These will need to be replaced with new ones, and the old ones will need to be re-soldered in a couple of places. Just ironing out the kinks. Next batch will be all soldered and tested by the factory.

Looking forward to updating the firmware and be able to get MIDI code into the computer. Once that is done, I can test out with CSI how it controls Reaper.
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Old 10-19-2020, 10:36 AM   #233
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Unfortunately, it's pretty tight inside. Currently the size of the case will be 10.5" x 7.5" or so.
Cool, I was thrown off by the knob size and the cardboard, 10.5" x 7.5" is pretty much in the sweet spot by my reckoning, great job !!
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Old 10-19-2020, 10:37 AM   #234
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And here's a VIDEO of the unit starting up.

http://www.siniarch.com/SiniControll...01_startup.mp4

As you can tell, 2 encoders are booting up slower than the rest. These will need to be replaced with new ones, and the old ones will need to be re-soldered in a couple of places. Just ironing out the kinks. Next batch will be all soldered and tested by the factory.

Looking forward to updating the firmware and be able to get MIDI code into the computer. Once that is done, I can test out with CSI how it controls Reaper.
It's alive !!!
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Old 10-19-2020, 12:23 PM   #235
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Unfortunately, it's pretty tight inside. Currently the size of the case will be 10.5" x 7.5" or so. Also, if you are looking at the encoder which has the black knob, you can imagine that if all the encoders had knobs, you wouldn't want them any closer width wise. Top to bottom, you could get them closer without it affecting the ergonomics of it, but not sure how much more we could grind out the height of the unit. Also, on my mock up, the screens are a little lower than they should be. I was going by the design files, and it seems that the manufacturer placed the screen a few mm above where the design cad file had them. Which I think it's ok, so it gives you a little more room between the knob and the screen. And the knob is not interfering with the screen content.

I will find out if there is anything we can do to minimize the height, but it might be difficult.

Here are some photos next to my Icon QCon Pro G2 for comparison. I took the liberty to photoshop out the cardboard box and just show what the top plate size of the unit would be. I think the cardboard box is deceptive. The unit's top plate would be the size of the white area.



siniarch,
Thank you for putting up those pics!
They do, however, bring something to light that always drives me nuts regarding pretty much every controller manufactured to this point; the viewing angle!

In your video, the angle is almost directly above, but no one actually works that way. We always end up either compromising visibility laying flat-forward (knobs covering up windows), or compromising design (mounting on a stand to prop up at a visible angle).

It's not just you; literally every DAW controller has this perplexing issue.

Would there be any way possible to mount these controls angled in a way that actually works in a SEATED position?
Like, if this were a (very) rough approximation side view of what you have now:
[\
[ \
[__\

maybe something like this?
[\[\[\

Not that comically steep of course, but slightly recessed and angled just enough to prevent the knobs from obstructing the displays?
This might also grant the means of slightly overlapping the bottom portion of the boards inside to allow for a shorter depth footprint.
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Old 10-19-2020, 12:33 PM   #236
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As an example of the issue I'm referring to, this is what I ended up doing with my Faderport8 (in addition to mounting it on a stand)...

before:


after:





Last edited by Mr. Green; 10-19-2020 at 01:00 PM.
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Old 10-19-2020, 01:06 PM   #237
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I actually was thinking of something exactly as you described, but the case costs might make it financially unfeasible. I'll re-explore the idea though and see if there is a way.
Thanks for the post.
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Old 10-19-2020, 01:30 PM   #238
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Wow that is looking sweet! I like that youre lining up the channels with other units, too.

I would agree, get the angle right for the displays, either with angled bezels or with an angled case, maybe even adjustable feet. You can read the reviews for the faderports and the xtouchs about the display angles.

One thing to consider also about this, when you compare to the G2, older Icons, and Avid Artist Mixs, they allow to mount in racks, so the angles built in may be better to be adjustable like the G2, or static/standard for those mounting in their mixing desks, which are usually already angled. I know, so much feedback and sh.t to consider...

Truth be told, under my C4 I have a piece of foam to get the angle better for the lower 3 displays and to match up with the angle on the ProX.
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Old 10-19-2020, 01:42 PM   #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by siniarch View Post
I actually was thinking of something exactly as you described, but the case costs might make it financially unfeasible. I'll re-explore the idea though and see if there is a way.
Thanks for the post.
I think you get what I mean, but I couldn't resist doing a really quick mockup...
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Old 10-19-2020, 03:05 PM   #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Cool, I was thrown off by the knob size and the cardboard, 10.5" x 7.5" is pretty much in the sweet spot by my reckoning, great job !!
Thank you Geoff. And great job to you as well. I see people are ironing out the kinks out of the latest release.
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