Old 08-28-2018, 07:39 AM   #401
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↑↑↑ This !
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Old 08-28-2018, 08:27 AM   #402
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missing action: Loop points: Set loop points to Automation Items
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Old 08-28-2018, 08:40 AM   #403
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significant AI copying issue when dealing with tempo changes:

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread....89#post2028589
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Old 08-28-2018, 09:12 AM   #404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deeb View Post
That is unfortunately true because there is no area selection in Reaper, so Ai's are being used as a poor workaround since no better way to accurately do that...
When comparing different approaches, also take into account the advantages of AIs, for example:

Pooling: once you have duplicated your automation, if you ever need to change some shapes, you don't need to do the duplication again.

Recover points: recover original automation shape by simply expanding the AI.

Saving/loading: Save your favorite automation shapes, then you can re-insert them without having to do any area selecting and copying!

I find AIs to be quick, powerful and versatile.

The major disadvantage is the large number of incomplete features and bugs...
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Old 08-28-2018, 09:26 AM   #405
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Originally Posted by juliansader View Post
When comparing different approaches, also take into account the advantages of AIs, for example:

Pooling: once you have duplicated your automation, if you ever need to change some shapes, you don't need to do the duplication again.

Recover points: recover original automation shape by simply expanding the AI.

Saving/loading: Save your favorite automation shapes, then you can re-insert them without having to do any area selecting and copying!

I find AIs to be quick, powerful and versatile.

The major disadvantage is the large number of incomplete features and bugs...
i am aware of those advantages! but i think you are not aware of the advantages of area selection.

- Both are versátil and useful for different things
- Ai's are to be used if useful, when we want a container to be reused and grahically there and makes sense (like pooling) otheriwize it clusters the project and not fast and very limited with a lot of hassles.

- Area selection is just to copy extremely fast and accurate anything to anywhere (i need no pool, no container, nothing, just copy and no visual cluster of project for most of the automations, with the advantage that it works with Items too)

---------
Ai's in my opinion should simply be finalised (small incoherences) - keep it simple
and with Area selection we could do everything, including a healthy use of AI's

Last edited by deeb; 08-28-2018 at 09:32 AM.
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Old 08-28-2018, 10:13 AM   #406
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I understand your point Deeb but im not missing area selection much personnaly from cubase
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Old 08-28-2018, 10:23 AM   #407
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I understand your point Deeb but im not missing area selection much personnaly from cubase
i am glad you understand. I don't use expression maps too. It doesn't mean they are not useful for many types of users.

And since in this case, people are suggesting doing everything with AI, to workaround the lack of area selection. This will fill AI with ambigous interpretation features, complex workflow and will never suppress the need of area selection.

They will transform a good and very useful feature (AI) into an inconvenient and too complex feature IMO. Its just "#%$%/%&(Q$QW#&$%/$&WRR##%"#$ - confusion.

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Old 08-28-2018, 12:45 PM   #408
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Probably. I havent even used AI yet and I dont feel im missing anything. Im even right click draging points because i did not have time to learn AI yet.
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Old 08-28-2018, 01:04 PM   #409
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Probably. I havent even used AI yet and I dont feel im missing anything. Im even right click draging points because i did not have time to learn AI yet.
this makes your opinion on this topic not much qualified, don't you think? because you can't talk of what you don't know or use or need. I would never go on a topic about expression maps trying to discuss expression maps because it's something i am not into.
I don't want to sound rude! but i don't know other way of saying.
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Old 08-28-2018, 01:13 PM   #410
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it clusters the project
This is indeed a problem. I had to get used to gluing regularly (in case I am using only AIs) or deleting while preserving points (in case using regular automation).

In earlier versions, there was an option to NOT remove points from underlying envelope when creating automation items. This was much better for simple copying, since you could 1) create multiple AIs with one click, 2) move them while leaving the original envelope unaltered, 3) delete them with another click -- and no debris would remain. Nowadays, the user has to go back to the original AIs, select them and remove them:

Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by juliansader View Post
The option to NOT remove points is essential for using AIs to move/copy automation, without changing the original envelope and without leaving debris of AI pieces and extraneous points everywhere.
You can do the same thing by copying instead of moving in step 2. There are so many options in REAPER, and it's so difficult to remove any...
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Old 08-28-2018, 01:52 PM   #411
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AI are beautiful, but not to depend on them in order to work with Envelope points (and Item) duplications.
Ai should stay simple. Used Occasionally and take the most of it when useful (pooling, shapes, save, etc). No cluster of project with more "items" (squares), just because we are forced to do so. For me, This is the difference between elegant or a nigh mare feature.
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Old 08-28-2018, 02:05 PM   #412
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this makes your opinion on this topic not much qualified, don't you think? because you can't talk of what you don't know or use or need. I would never go on a topic about expression maps trying to discuss expression maps because it's something i am not into.
I don't want to sound rude! but i don't know other way of saying.
point is that if I don't even feel like something is missing to EVEN right click dragging it means that its not the end of the world if this feature is not perfect and if area selection is not yet implemented. Thats all there was to the point I'm not arguing about anything just saying how I am not missing area selection from Cubase, and not using AI at all. But I understand that its useless to talk of stuff we dont know
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Old 08-28-2018, 02:08 PM   #413
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point is that if I don't even feel like something is missing to EVEN right click dragging it means that its not the end of the world if this feature is not perfect and if area selection is not yet implemented.
but i am sorry you don't use or know every production technique in the world. Personally this can be the difference between a useful DAW or not.
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Old 08-28-2018, 02:44 PM   #414
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but i am sorry you don't use or know every production technique in the world. Personally this can be the difference between a useful DAW or not.
Yeah I know, but honestly these last months I keep switching between Cubase pro 9.5 and Reaper. To be honest even if I used Cubase for the last 12 years and all my muscle memory and habits is built around it.. also even if it cost me more than 1000$ over the years, I still can't prefer it to Reaper. The more I learn Reaper and customize it the more I can't go back to Cubase. So I trust them that they will choose the best option to help with editing enveloppes, either with area selection or improved AI
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Old 08-28-2018, 06:12 PM   #415
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Originally Posted by D Rocks View Post
Yeah I know, but honestly these last months I keep switching between Cubase pro 9.5 and Reaper. To be honest even if I used Cubase for the last 12 years and all my muscle memory and habits is built around it.. also even if it cost me more than 1000$ over the years, I still can't prefer it to Reaper. The more I learn Reaper and customize it the more I can't go back to Cubase. So I trust them that they will choose the best option to help with editing enveloppes, either with area selection or improved AI
so honestly that as nothing to do with what i am trying to say. :|
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Old 08-28-2018, 06:18 PM   #416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deeb View Post
but i am sorry you don't use or know every production technique in the world. Personally this can be the difference between a useful DAW or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by D Rocks View Post
Yeah I know, but honestly these last months I keep switching between Cubase pro 9.5 and Reaper. To be honest even if I used Cubase for the last 12 years and all my muscle memory and habits is built around it.. also even if it cost me more than 1000$ over the years, I still can't prefer it to Reaper. The more I learn Reaper and customize it the more I can't go back to Cubase. So I trust them that they will choose the best option to help with editing enveloppes, either with area selection or improved AI

^^^^ context ^^^^

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so honestly that as nothing to do with what i am trying to say. :|
You were talking about a good versus bad DAW relating to these kind of features. .and your signature says you are about to quit Reaper. Im sharing my thoughts on those two things.

Anyways have a good night its useless to talk
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Old 08-28-2018, 06:59 PM   #417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by D Rocks View Post
You were talking about a good versus bad DAW relating to these kind of features. .and your signature says you are about to quit Reaper. Im sharing my thoughts on those two things.

Anyways have a good night its useless to talk
My signature as nothing to do. It's an expression just like your signature. But thanks.
And sorry i am not talking about anything like "a good versus bad DAW".

The topic: REAPER Pre-Release Discussion- Automation item pre-release thread

And i am discussing Automation Items! it's simple. Thanks tho.
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Old 08-28-2018, 09:16 PM   #418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juliansader View Post
This is indeed a problem.
sorry i ment Clutters instead of clusters.

I mean: depending on AI for Envelope duplication clutters project.

Quote:
Originally Posted by juliansader View Post
I find AIs to be quick, powerful and versatile.

The major disadvantage is the large number of incomplete features and bugs...
There are more:
1 - much slower, much less flexible and more number of steps
2 - does not work with items
3 - clutters project visually and workflow
4 - ambiguous meanings/ concepts and many more spaghetti actions

Which wouldn't happen if AI's where used solely for the uses you mentioned:
- Pooling: once you have duplicated your automation
- Recover points: recover original automation shape by simply expanding the AI.
- Saving/loading: Save your favourite automation shapes

and if Area selection could do it's job for duplicating anything to anywhere.
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Old 08-29-2018, 07:02 AM   #419
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Also Area selection has the benefit of adding actions/possibilities like:

- Area selection -> Insert AIs
- Area selection -> Duplicate
- Area selection -> Duplicate pooled (AI + MI)
- Area selection -> Select contained items (AI + MI)
- Area selection -> Select exclusively contained items (AI + MI)
- Area selection -> Glue (AI + MI)
- Area selection -> Group
- Area selection -> Delete


and manny more ..

Last edited by deeb; 08-29-2018 at 09:18 AM.
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Old 08-29-2018, 09:31 AM   #420
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Area selection has zero benefits as it doesn't exist!

Do you really think it's productive to ad nauseam post about area selection?

Don't get me wrong I would like AS too, but...
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Old 08-29-2018, 09:45 AM   #421
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Quote:
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Do you really think it's productive to ad nauseam post about area selection?
i think it's productive to add knowledge and perspective to AI. Because in the long term AI and Area selection should be thought together and complementing each other.
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Old 08-29-2018, 12:05 PM   #422
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this thread has served its purpose, in my opinion it should be unstickied. further discussion should probably exist in focused bug reports and feature request threads...
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Old 08-29-2018, 12:25 PM   #423
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Originally Posted by mccrabney View Post
this thread has served its purpose, in my opinion it should be unstickied. further discussion should probably exist in focused bug reports and feature request threads...
good timing ...! : | why are you trying to cut my speak? i am not requesting anything! i am simply giving AI perspective that maybe many users and even Devs might not have.
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Old 08-29-2018, 02:10 PM   #424
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AIs are no longer a prerelease issue and have not been for months.

any discussion being held here would be better organized if it was in individual posts about specific issues, rather than a lot of crosstalk.

i'm not cutting off your speech, nor do i have the authority/power to do so. if anything, i'm suggesting a better megaphone.
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Old 08-29-2018, 05:17 PM   #425
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LOL!

I'd agree, unsticky it.
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Old 08-29-2018, 07:07 PM   #426
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ok mccrabney!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mccrabney View Post
any discussion being held here would be better organized if it was in individual posts about specific issues, rather than a lot of crosstalk.
information is here! it is not lost. Personally i don't have more to say about Area Selection and AI relation - i said what i thought i had to say! And Bugs and related FR are here. I think it's fine thread! but If you would like to discuss/help/organize anything outside, just say or create the topics : )
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Old 08-30-2018, 06:53 AM   #427
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LOL!

I'd agree, unsticky it.
https://chainedyetfree.files.wordpre...015/08/lol.jpg

: )

I have never seen anything positive or useful from your person in any thread!
You look for troubles and poison.

Apparentely some mod like your style! i don't ! : )
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Old 08-30-2018, 07:40 AM   #428
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My opinion, for Moderators here:

- Plz Make this thread obsolete (close it) cause , indeed, AI's are not anymore in pre-release.
- Plz Make a sub sticky for AI's bugs & oddities, under the Bugs Forum.
- Plz Make a substicky for AI FR's, under FR Forum.

I think this way, the whole AI debate will be more ordered and transparant.
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Old 09-14-2018, 08:28 AM   #429
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Quote:
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Hmmmm, actually seems to be a bug caused by the setting, 'Automation items do not connect to the underlying envelope'.

With that option on, I add an AI, set it to negative value, go to right edge of AI, zoom in, the envelope value is not zero dB where expected, and the value slowly works back to zero as the play head moves right, this causes transitions to be much slower then they should be here.

Win7 / 5.62 / x64



When set to 'Automation items connect to the underlying envelope on both sides' or 'Automation items connect to the underlying envelope on the right side' the transition is instant (envelope values are as expected).

EDIT: Value shown in Tooltip is deceiving, even though it shows 0.00dB over those points the volume value is actually still negative.
This behaviour is problematic .

Please devs, is it possible to add an option to set the time of automation data transition between envelope and AI edges ?

To avoid impacting on AI, at the start of AI, transition should start before the AI, and at the end of AI after the AI.

Or delete this transition time ?


It happens when an AI edge is not connected to envelope.

Last edited by ovnis; 10-20-2018 at 10:01 AM.
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Old 09-14-2018, 02:09 PM   #430
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This issue seems not be solved. Transition of automation data between envelope and AI edges is too much long...
If I'm reading the time correctly, at 120bpm the transition from AI value to envelope value (on both sides) is approx 12ms. When is this transition actually noticeable? MIDI stuff?
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Old 09-14-2018, 02:12 PM   #431
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Quote:
When is this transition actually noticeable?
It can be very noticable...

Try with a low pass filter on audio or midi item (which plays synth or hit-hat)...

Last edited by ovnis; 09-14-2018 at 04:19 PM.
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Old 09-15-2018, 04:04 PM   #432
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Nice solution : AI fade-in and fade-out.

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Old 10-20-2018, 05:43 AM   #433
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Default My observations/requests

If you disable loop and extend right edge, the extended section 1) still looks a loop (but isn't) and 2) is uneditable.

Please implement CTRL+drag to copy to another track.

We can't add an AI to an existing pool?

In properties, if you change the Name to the same as another group, the name updates, then when you click on the AI, the name is changed back.

Item grouping doesn't work for AIs.

Changing an automation point in an AI by using text entry (Set envelope point value dialogbox) needs to refresh pooled items.

AIs cover the bottom row of text* for underlying audio/MIDI items. Should be moved up when AI overlaps OR permanently move the bottom horizontal bar of an AI up so it doesn't cover that. (*things like item FX names, velocity multiplier for MIDI items)

Sometimes loading a saved AI creates an unpooled copy. (possibly due to changes to the AI after it was saved??))
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Old 10-20-2018, 09:11 AM   #434
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daxliniere View Post
If you disable loop and extend right edge, the extended section 1) still looks a loop (but isn't) and 2) is uneditable.
Ya, disabling loop leaves loopmark and I can't draw points, But if I resize the AI after disabling loop the AI gets redrawn and I can draw points again.


(Win7_x64 , v5.961+dev1019)
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Old 10-20-2018, 09:24 AM   #435
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Thanks edgemeal! Much respect for your way of caring reaper
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Old 10-20-2018, 09:58 AM   #436
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgemeal View Post
Hmmmm, actually seems to be a bug caused by the setting, 'Automation items do not connect to the underlying envelope'.

With that option on, I add an AI, set it to negative value, go to right edge of AI, zoom in, the envelope value is not zero dB where expected, and the value slowly works back to zero as the play head moves right, this causes transitions to be much slower then they should be here.

Win7 / 5.62 / x64



When set to 'Automation items connect to the underlying envelope on both sides' or 'Automation items connect to the underlying envelope on the right side' the transition is instant (envelope values are as expected).

EDIT: Value shown in Tooltip is deceiving, even though it shows 0.00dB over those points the volume value is actually still negative.
This issue should be fixed quickly. When an issue can changes the sound in an unexpected way, I think it's very problematic.
Far more than an UI classic issue.
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