Dolby Atmos - reaper vs. logic and Nuendo - seamless loops

[audiotect]

HI
I´ve been (almost) hi jacking a few threads about Reaper - atmos pros/cons/requests etc. So now I start my own thread about what I´m looking for and testing.

I do a lot of music and sounddesign for cultural museums - Many sounddesign playing in sync and in loop. that is the base for my "grib" - composing an overall sounddesign for the whole experience, based on 8 - 13 different design. Every sound is seen as an instrument i a symphoni. I don´t get any clashed of sound and the (moving) audience walks around "inside" the symphoni. I works fine :-)

I do a lot of odd set ups and some standard ones, use every format, often see the actual room as my "immersiveness"
Also use Spat Revolution and a bunch of immersive formats and plug ins.
Except Dolby Atmos..!

But the exhibitions are now scaled for sale and we need to work in more standard formats, easy to convert, easy to install - and Dolby Atmos seems to the "immersive standard" of today.
meaning people know about it, the big companies use it, many down/upmixing plugs ins can handle it. I know there many other immersive formats and some are becoming contenders to Dolby Atmos.
But still.

I´ve worked in many DAW´s but have stayed in Reaper for some years now. No expert, but I can do what i want. Even if I can make my more standard set up in Logic (have done a lot of work in logic) and Nuendo, even Ableton Live, Reaper just so good for so many things.

One thing I need to make is seamless loops of my design.
I would be very timecomsuming working in more than one DAW, because I move things around a lot - from one design to another etc. "Things" can be very complex parts of sounddesign, need to be up/downmixed, spatialized for different rooms etc.
And reaper is the right tool for this.

But Dolby Atmos is not integrated natively in Reaper and it might never happen...
So I checked the known solutions for now:
Fiddler audio released a solution and you can use the dolby atmos renderer incl. the Dolby atmos panner (if you´re on a Mac, I´m)

But none of these give me seamless loops when used with Reaper. and even Logic seems not to be capable of doing a seamless loop in binaural render mode from an atmos session.


I did a lot of test and the result was that Nuendo can do what I want.

I´m not that familiar with working in Nuendo, but I will not be able to do what I need to do in Reaper alone. So if needed I might make my session in Reaper - export the tracks and do a dolby atmos mix in Nuendo.

I´m open for any suggestions good ideas, corrections etc.

Best
Søren/Audiotect

[sguyader]

I read the other thread but will continue here. What do you mean by "humps" when you try to loop in Reaper?

[audiotect]

I bit difficult to explain
The hump is the sound of a small change in the flow, could be a very very short break in sound, but in this case with out a click.
Almost like a drift in frames in video. a cut of a frame or adding af frame.
I don´t know how it happens - but I guess Dolby Atmos Composer introduces a small delay

I used a file from "Quiet Planet" series - Wind of Nature library by Gordon Hempton I prepared it for looping - and it loops fine in reaper without DAC and after render in my check app - Twisted Wave.

DAC seems to act a bit like an external app - like Spat Revolution, where it can be really difficult to make seamless loops in the combi of Reaper and Spat R. ( I have a few worksaround for this)

I might take a closer look on the file to see what it looks like.

Best
Søren

[sguyader]

So for this one, you didn't use the Dorlby Atmos Renderer?

[audiotect]

Hi
I will try an collect my test result here
The Reaper/Dolby Atmos composer - There is a little "jump" when looping.

Logic Pro
when rendering using Dolby Renderer it adds a "jump" in the file around 10 - 20 ms in. Could be a bug or me doing something wrong. Don´t know - it happens with every render.I plays back in logic seamless.
When rendering using Apple Renderer it adds a click when looping.sounds like it is in the end of the file. Not sure. I´ve tried both Bed and object setting. same.


Nuendo
works seamless and the panner is very good more info further down

Reaper with Dolby Atmos Renderer
I used your “how to render” from here https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=279048
And “immersive audio mixer” MatNoir did a video on the set up
Beware about frame rate
I was testing different frame rates - but changing the frame rate in reaper, has to be done both in the project settings and in the time code generator file.
I used your “how to render” from here https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=279048

I then exported the master as an ADM BWF file - then imported in reaper via EAR - and it is not looping seamless. a small "hump" when looping.hmmm

I then imported it in Nuendo 12 - a small "hump"

I then exported the file from Reaper/DAR in binarual, 5.1. and ambix - all with a small "hump" in the loop (checked in reaper)


Then I imported the actual loop in Nuendo (nice seamless looping from the file itself) and did a dolby set up - exported it as ADM - imported it again just to check - nice seamless looping.

I exported the Atmos mix as binaural - seamless

[sguyader]

Is it possible something is wrong with your setup/system?
I just tried rendering a simple stereo loop of about 1min with the DAR in Reaper (the loop is set as a stereo object, and it is sent to a 7.1.2 aux track with Ircam Verb outputing the wet signal to the dobly atmos bed.

I then imported a 5.1 re-render and played it as loop in Reaper: I don't get a "hump" or anything stange to my ears.

The only change I hear when the loop returns at the beginning, is a change in tonality due to my sloppy object automation that is not seemlessly blending at both end of the loop.

Here's a video capture of the 5.1 loop playing in reaper (using the DearVR monitor for 5.1 to binaural downmixing): https://drive.google.com/file/d/19fu...usp=share_link

[sguyader]

Here's a new version, as I realized that the original loop isn't strating as it should (that was the source of the weird change in tone we could hear in my example).
In this new video I show 3 types of looped 5.1 re-renders, the first is the bed only (100% wet signal from the reverb), the second is the object only, and the last track is both combined.
I have removed the object panning automation.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Gc1...usp=share_link

It sounds normal to me.

[audiotect]

Hi
Thank for doing this
I don´t think there is anything wrong with my system, but since I´m a newbee regarding Dolby atmos I could have done something wrong in the set up - but i followed your "how to"

But I will try my loop with your set up.

Please note that I loop probably the most difficult thing to loop - wind ambience (nature ambience stuff are in general hard to loop)
And yes we´re talking a very small "hump" that can be hidden or covered by a "action loop", like a drum loop.
But I will test!

Stay tuned.

[audiotect]

I Will check the your new version asap

thanks

[audiotect]

well...I hear a small "hump". Sorry

[sguyader]

Originally Posted by audiotect

well...I hear a small "hump". Sorry

Indeed you're right. I tried with a generated pink noise track, and there are 2 issues:

1) the recorded item itself (rendered from DAR) has a small hump (about 20 ms of lowered volume); just as if there was a fade in and fade out from the DAR (see the image attached with the "hump" zone highlighted).

2) Reaper doesn't loop seemlessly and adds a significant silence when jumping back at the top of the loop.

For the second issue, there could be an option in reaper to prevent this to happen, but I don't know.

[sguyader]

the solution I found is to define the selection in and out points in Reaper slightly inside the item, that way Reaper loops seemlessly:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Duu...usp=share_link

[audiotect]

interesting
Is that reaper looping without Dolby atmos renderer etc set up? just reaper itself?

I can make reaper loop seamless just by making my loops fine and the select time selection and loop.
But I have check out this for sure.
I wonder how it will work in "real life", in a session, say many tracks, an a movie

[sguyader]

It was using the 5.1 re-render, so it was not with the DAR active.

But below is a video of the actual atmos "mix" project, running from with DAR. Excuse me because OBS captured also the LTC audio channel, so you'll hear a nasty sound on the left channel, but interestingly looping the project within Reaper seems to play seemlessly even with the region in/out points right at the beginning/end of the item:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1YmJ...usp=share_link

[audiotect]

Yes - my loop point and time selection is linked - I actually didn´t know you could unlink them :-)

here is my loop running through DAR - seamless
(there is a click in the beginning - I had the recording start right away - the loop appears around 29 sek in the video.)
https://cloud.onlime.dk/s/316fff5c2c...52dc5be7e0779f


This is what has been possible all the way - now i will..again try to make a masterfile and then export it.
Maybe the way I record the master file is not ideal.?
I record as you suggested setting in/out point in DAR and the file has the correct length but up till now the loops rendered fron DAR has the "hump"
I use the set up of the time code and the routing suggested by "Immersive audio mixer"
https://youtu.be/X8hB_8BfYeE

[sguyader]

I followed the LeMatNoir videos initially as well, but I think that since then the timecode following in DAR has been improved. In the example I showed you, I'm using the dolby LTC generator. But I had also setup the LTC generator from Reaper, although you may have noticed that the LTC itm from Reaper is natively at 44/1 kHz, and it is resampled automatically to 48 kHz when you add it to your Atmos project. I don't know if resampling an LTC file, that's why I prefered to use the Dolby LTC generator.

In deed your video shows that playing the project looped in DAR is seemless. But if you need to import it as an ADM file, then maybe if you place the looping region in/out points within your items, it will play seemlessly as I showed in my 5.1 re-render example?

Also, heve you a way to try importing the ADM file to Davinci Resolve? If you don't, I have a Resolve Studio License and if you can share an ADM file with me I could try.

[audiotect]

the rendered versions from DAR - here is the binaural playing
we got a hump!
https://cloud.onlime.dk/s/31659912eb...243406d3f9e952

I also rendered an ADM Atmos file - and imported it in reaper via EAR: Same hump
I imported the ADM Atmos file into Nuendo - same hump

So either it cannot do it or something in the way I make the renderer from Reaper with DAR is not working.

Although i really don´t like to edit files start/end afterwards it could be the solution after making a longer master file than the actual session.

[audiotect]

Okay - didn´t know that the timecode was 44.1
I guess it´s not an issue - must be reaper that does the resampling and reaper is normally good at that.

here is link to the ADM atmos file - I hope! this file is rendered as an ADM from DAR and opens as one in Nuendo. I actully thought is was called something else than Wav. but then again it is a Wav...
(back in the day we worked with files called wav. extension files - I guess it is the same)

well - try it.
My luck in Nuendo was no good.

https://cloud.onlime.dk/s/3162c3ecf1...f73cab23e05541

[sguyader]

Unfortunately, I also get the hump in Davinci Resolve with your ADM file...

[sguyader]

Oh and by the way, I don't know if you also followed LeMAtNoir's steps and created an aggregate device (what he called "Atmos output" device), but with the current version of DAR it is not necessary. I don't have any issues with using directly the Dolby Audio Bridge device in Reaper.

[audiotect]

I did - but cool to know it is not necessary anymore.

I might later the coming week try without and with the dolby timecode generator.
But my guess is that it won´t make any difference.

I had the same issue with Reaper and Spat Revolution, but very low buffersize solved it, although you cannot have a monster session going then.

For the heck of it I rendered an ADM file from and EAR Reaper session
I know It´s not an ADM atmos file but anyway
Nuendo crashed when trying to import as ADM...

I think we so far did a good job testing - and for now is looks and sounds like It is not possible to do seamless renders.
The exact same happens with Dolby Atmos Composer.

I I need to do an atmos mix I can use Nuendo for now.
it´s ok.

[sguyader]

I saw in the DAR Preferences that there is "Speaker and headphone delay" that is at the minimum 22 ms. Can this be the cause? Unfortunately we can increase the delay, but not decrease it.

Inspecting the start and stop regions of the ADM file, the waveforms clearly show that DAR creates a short fade in / fade out. I don't know if it has to do with the delay I talked about above. But if the DAR creates this, I definitely can't create seemlessly loopable ADM's.

[audiotect]

hmm..well no idea. I depends on what they actually mean by that.
If there is a delay in the playback it shouldn´t interfer with the rendering.
When we check the files it is out of DAR.
The interesting thing is that the dolby renderer in Nuendo does not add any delay. Although i need to a bit more testing outside Nuendo.
But that leds me to think that the issue can be solved but then we need a build in Atmos solution for Reaper and it sounds like Justin won´t do that.
OR some conversion tool or the EAR will output Dolby ADM files.

I might try and go the binaural way with EAR - people in here salute the binarual plug in/playback and for now it could be the solution for me, if the customer is not direct asking for Atmos.

[sguyader]

The "hump" seems in fact to be fade in/out that is baked in the rendred ADM wav file, form what I've seen. Since Nuendo used its own native atmos renderer, it could behave differently compared to dolby's renderer and not create these in/out fades.