Cool new plug in format on the way -- CLAP

[alextone]

Originally Posted by BethHarmon

No apology necessary!



The major issue is that these sample library developers rarely update their libraries so you spend the money and are stuck with faulty behavior. Good luck getting a refund after you've downloaded the absolutely massive product onto your hard drive without so much as an opportunity to demo. Berlin and Spitfire are possibly the biggest offenders...Buying a library should also allow the user to easily tweak and re-use samples (even outside of Kontakt) without breaking user agreements. After all, a user can re-save any Kontakt library using an unbundled wav format. Messy, but with massive potential...

As a side note, buying Kontakt with its included library means paying for tired wholetone VSL samples from yesteryear. It reminds me of the criticism I read about Reason and MAGIX in that regard. Often criticism of closed source software stems from both a love of open source models but also dissatisfaction with the upgrade costs that are often disproportionate with the number of new features. Even without a subscription model, users often feel they are in such a system when failing to upgrade on the company's schedule means they lose the special upgrade price down the line. Again, even though closed-source, I applaud ValhallaDSP that sticks to its comparatively low prices with no sales gimmicks.

This is why I kept all my gig libraries, and worked hard learning how to use linuxsampler, and linux in general.

I haven't had to spend money on overpriced sample libs that by default exclude me from using them on my chosen OS. The one that just works every day, doesn't update in the middle of a session, and doesn't report me to those who would attempt to fill my days with their crap, and harvest my info.

The exclusion of linux is deliberate, and self-serving for shareholders. That's ok, as long as those folk realize we're under no obligation to spend money on their products.
I've yet to hear a kontakt format sample lib that sounds any better than those I currently own, in gig format. Look past the clever marketing and flashy demos. Importantly, HEAR past the clever marketing and flashy demos.

I think sample lib developers will come to regret giving NI a monopoly, with their hostility toward linux, and alienating the growing number of linux users who want an alternative.


If NI crash and burn tomorrow, and take the current crop of kontakt loving sample lib developers with them, I certainly won't lose any sleep. They all made their choice.

I look forward to experimenting with a native linux version of CLAP, as I do with HISE, and the exciting JUCE LV2 addition just added to github.

Alex.

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by BethHarmon

Buying a library should also allow the user to easily tweak and re-use samples (even outside of Kontakt) without breaking user agreements.

Unfortunately, no. And this goes as far as contracts with (for example) the actual orchestra and venue/facility where the recording is taking place, which are often very specific about what sort of permissions they grant to the sample library developer. In short, resulting samples are not allowed to be repurposed/appropriated by the user - only the sample library developer gets the permission to physically edit the samples (i.e. denoising, trimming, whatnot).

Originally Posted by BethHarmon

After all, a user can re-save any Kontakt library using an unbundled wav format. Messy, but with massive potential...

Not if it's a Player library (and for good reason, too).

Originally Posted by BethHarmon

As a side note, buying Kontakt with its included library means paying for tired wholetone VSL samples from yesteryear.

Nope. The price of Kontakt doesn't really contain the factory library content in itself. NI could remove the factory library entirely and still keep Kontakt at the same price. Any royalty deals with VSL were long since absorbed costs.

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by alextone

and alienating the growing number of linux users who want an alternative

Growing? How much, what are the actual numbers?

This is still an extremely small niche in the audio industry. NI's userbase is counted in millions of users. Users which use Linux (usually next to Win/macOS) are like 1% of that or less. So, why would anyone spend millions to support this super tiny part of the market? ROI on that would be a net loss.


(BTW NI is not hostile towards Linux. Maschine+ runs on it...)

[BethHarmon]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Nope. The price of Kontakt doesn't really contain the factory library content in itself. NI could remove the factory library entirely and still keep Kontakt at the same price. Any royalty deals with VSL were long since absorbed costs.

When the Kontakt page lists its factory library as the second "feature" headline, I disagree. Come on now...



Anyway, it's all a moot point. I won't ever buy it (again) while it only resides on Windows and MacOS. Sure, I might miss out on a few nice libraries but I'd rather not be further sucked into the dark side more than I already am (still trying to free myself from Amazon...almost there).

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

(BTW NI is not hostile towards Linux. Maschine+ runs on it...)

Let's see Kontakt on Linux then and without yabridge's help!

[alextone]

Originally Posted by BethHarmon

......



Let's see Kontakt on Linux then (without yabridge's help)!

It would be easy to build, cost almost nothing, and voila, more customers.

Like I said, NI, particularly with Kontakt, are anti-linux.

[BethHarmon]

Originally Posted by alextone

It would be easy to build, cost almost nothing, and voila, more customers.

Like I said, NI, particularly with Kontakt, are anti-linux.

I completely agree with you. Unfortunately 'tis the world we live in. In better news, I took another pass at those relatively new OrchesTools GPLv3 libraries and I'm managing to make some good sounds with them: https://musictop69.wixsite.com/orche...rchestools-two

[alextone]

Originally Posted by BethHarmon

I completely agree with you. Unfortunately 'tis the world we live in. In better news, I took another pass at those relatively new OrchesTools GPLv3 libraries and I'm managing to make some good sounds with them: https://musictop69.wixsite.com/orche...rchestools-two

Thanks for the link, Beth. I'll have a download and tinker.

EDIT. Finally got the libs d/l but when i open the plugin, it stalls and crashes reaper. Are you doing anything in particular to run the plugins, find the sample locations, etc?

EDIT2. Never mind. Some nice person has built linux VST2 versions and left them in the forum.

[robbert-vdh]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

This is still an extremely small niche in the audio industry. NI's userbase is counted in millions of users. Users which use Linux (usually next to Win/macOS) are like 1% of that or less. So, why would anyone spend millions to support this super tiny part of the market? ROI on that would be a net loss.

For NI it's probably different since they have very wide spread appeal across the entire audio production industry. But targeting Linux as a more 'boutique' plugin developer can in some cases make a lot of sense, especially if there's not much competition on Linux for your area of expertise. I've heard some of the sales numbers from a couple well known commercial plugin developers and while certainly not a majority, I was very surprised to see the relative Linux market share among their user base being as high as it was.

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by alextone

It would be easy to build, cost almost nothing, and voila, more customers.

You're wrong on the first two accounts.

First off, what runs on Maschine+ is only a headless build, no GUI at all. Kontakt would first need to be its whole GUI redone in a UI framework that is fully cross-platform (this is currently not the case at all). This doesn't "cost almost nothing".

Second, supporting Linux is difficult unless you really limit yourself to one single distro. This also doesn't "cost almost nothing".

And, after these two expensive points are dealt with, how many more customers could be expected? 1000? 10000? That's not enough to cover the investments.

Originally Posted by BethHarmon

When the Kontakt page lists its factory library as the second "feature" headline, I disagree. Come on now...

Marketing headline is one thing, facts behind the scenes are something else. Again, this is something I learned in the past two years. Kontakt with no factory library would still be selling for 400.



At any rate... this all has nothing to do with CLAP, heh.

[Largos]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

So, why do you think Alexandre and Urs and othres didn't already attempt to contact LV2 team with suggestions for improvements? They did, back in 2019. Their ideas were not received very well. So much about that.

Maybe they were bad suggestions. :-))

[EvilDragon]

I doubt it, considering how much interest CLAP has garnered in the first week since the 1.0 announcement. LV2 never had such an uptake, nor VST3 even.

And again, there's: http://drobilla.net/2019/11/11/lv2-t...-and-ugly.html

And this comes from one of three people that are maintainers on the LV2 repo.

[alextone]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

You're wrong on the first two accounts.

First off, what runs on Maschine+ is only a headless build, no GUI at all. Kontakt would first need to be its whole GUI redone in a UI framework that is fully cross-platform (this is currently not the case at all). This doesn't "cost almost nothing".

Second, supporting Linux is difficult unless you really limit yourself to one single distro. This also doesn't "cost almost nothing".

And, after these two expensive points are dealt with, how many more customers could be expected? 1000? 10000? That's not enough to cover the investments.



Marketing headline is one thing, facts behind the scenes are something else. Again, this is something I learned in the past two years. Kontakt with no factory library would still be selling for 400.



At any rate... this all has nothing to do with CLAP, heh.

The Mac version is built on the UNIX framework, yes?

[Largos]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

I doubt it, considering how much interest CLAP has garnered in the first week since the 1.0 announcement. LV2 never had such an uptake, nor VST3 even.

And again, there's: http://drobilla.net/2019/11/11/lv2-t...-and-ugly.html

And this comes from one of three people that are maintainers on the LV2 repo.

You're still not saying what those suggestions were or why and how they were rejected. Though I don't get why people who admit in public that they either don't know about LV2 or couldn't understand it would be making development suggestions.

https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewt...96464#p8296464

https://youtu.be/H_03JJ7Ca5g?t=3231

[BethHarmon]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Marketing headline is one thing, facts behind the scenes are something else. Again, this is something I learned in the past two years. Kontakt with no factory library would still be selling for 400.

At any rate... this all has nothing to do with CLAP, heh.

No, but it's helping prove my point

[BethHarmon]

Originally Posted by Largos

You're still not saying what those suggestions were or why and how they were rejected. Though I don't get why people who admit in public that they either don't know about LV2 or couldn't understand it would be making development suggestions.

https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewt...96464#p8296464

https://youtu.be/H_03JJ7Ca5g?t=3231

What's interesting is that I think I quoted EvilDragon inadvertently a few days ago about the synth developers who essentially couldn't be bothered to double-back and check out the improvements that LV2 had indeed implemented.

Agreed: I'd love to know what those suggestions were from the CLAP devs and details of the subsequent exchange. And I agree with you: a developer can't say they don't understand some LV2 specs and then expect to make reasonable suggestions. It comes across as quite lazy actually given the obvious expertise needed to create a framework from scratch. But, I'm hopeful that this was just something lost in translation.

Anyway, I think we are fighting a losing battle here. Companies who are anti-Linux are highly unlikely to ever change their spots. At least its bringing to light some of the attitudes prevalent in the industry.

[audiojunkie]

One thing that I don't think has been mentioned in this discussion is that many (multiple dozens) of third party mapped sample creators allow in multiple formats, including WAV (Those and SFZ are the only ones I buy). Mapping them isn't too hard for Linux users, and if it's done in SFZ format, we can even share the mappings. Other users may indeed need to go buy the sample licenses, but the mappings are the time consuming part. Personally, if there was a single plugin that I could wish for on Linux, it would be kontakt. But Kontakt isn't perfect either--the company can choose (and has chosen) at any time not to continue authorizing older versions, and then you're stuck. For fans of open source, this is clearly not the solution. IMHO, LinuxSampler despite its licensing flaws, is probably the closest thing we Linux users will get to a Kontakt-like tool. GigEdit gives us an excellent way to map and edit samples samples in Gig format. Sfizz be an alternative with SFZ. What the open source world needs, is an easy to use SFZ sample mapping package. And even with that, we can almost get there using the available SFZ mapping tools that exist, including mapping and exporting through Bliss sampler. Is it a lot of work? Yes. Does it get easier when we share sample mappings? Yes, much easier! Can we customize and tweak to our hearts content? Yes. Can anyone take away LinuxSampler or Sfizz? No. Can anyone take away our multisampled library of Wav files? Very unlikely--even the licensed ones we've purchased. In my opinion, I've always felt that the best way to go for Linux users is to have a thread that lists available sample libraries in WAV, SFZ, SF2, and Gig formats, along with ratings and shared mappings. A Linux user could then purchase the sample library and never worry about it again. And, as a backup, there are plenty of Windows-based plugin options that are available too.

I can't think of any absolutely essential tools that exist in the Windows world that we can't find substitutes for in the Linux world. If CLAP doesn't make it big, there's still no loss for us Linux users--we've got LV2 and VST3 as well. But, if CLAP does make it big, then developers will have a plugin format that is easier to use and port--even to Linux. I don't see CLAP detracting from LV2 at all anymore (I used to worry about it). The more I think about it, the more I realize that we Linux users can benefit from it with little negative consequence. CLAP won't stop developers from using their preferred SDK of choice. Developers who are fans of LV2 will still use LV2. The same with the other formats. The thing that I'm grateful for, is that the CLAP developers designed CLAP with Linux in mind (as well as Apple and Windows). We are not second class citizens with the CLAP format. I'm optimistic.

[BethHarmon]

Originally Posted by audiojunkie

One thing that I don't think has been mentioned in this discussion is that many (multiple dozens) of third party mapped sample creators allow in multiple formats, including WAV (Those and SFZ are the only ones I buy). Mapping them isn't too hard for Linux users, and if it's done in SFZ format, we can even share the mappings.

Having mapped several Kontakt instruments to SFZ, I can say that when the instruments come with their own GUI with special mappings, functions etc behind the scenes, it's just not worth the hassle (and might run counter to the license?). You get something that sort of works but will never work exactly the same because the functions are hidden from the user. Also, with these big symphony libraries with multi-microphones, forget it. At that point you'd be doing more work than coding a new GUI for Kontakt

[audiojunkie]

Originally Posted by BethHarmon

Having mapped several Kontakt instruments to SFZ, I can say that when the instruments come with their own GUI with special mappings, functions etc behind the scenes, it's just not worth the hassle (and might run counter to the license?). You get something that sort of works but will never work exactly the same because the functions are hidden from the user. Also, with these big symphony libraries with multi-microphones, forget it. At that point you'd be doing more work than coding a new GUI for Kontakt (or pressing the "public" option on your git repository)

Maybe true. But then, WINE keeps getting better. Those who choose to do so, can use Kontakt.....but users don't have to if they don't want to. Either way, I don't see how CLAP would affect us negatively.

[Lynx_TWO]

Originally Posted by BethHarmon

Buying a library should also allow the user to easily tweak and re-use samples (even outside of Kontakt) without breaking user agreements. After all, a user can re-save any Kontakt library using an unbundled wav format. Messy, but with massive potential...

Apparently SampleRobot can convert Kontakt libraries to other formats such as Soundfont2 through an automated process. Might be worth looking into if a user is trying to do so:

https://samplerobot.com/products/samplerobot-pro

[BethHarmon]

Originally Posted by audiojunkie

Maybe true. But then, WINE keeps getting better. Those who choose to do so, can use Kontakt.....but users don't have to if they don't want to. Either way, I don't see how CLAP would affect us negatively.

I honestly believe that you can't rely on WINE for production over the long term. One update from NI and/or one update from WINE could break Kontakt and then you are playing the downgrade and pin game. Robbert can chime in if he disagrees but I've always seen yabridge as a stop-gap...a brilliant one, but the endgame should always be native Linux versions whether that's anti-Linux companies changing their spots (hell hath frozen over!) or users finding their own reasonable native alternatives.

As you point out, we are not really lacking anything in the Linux realm for regular effects. It's only sample library stuff that is a pain.

[moss]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Growing? How much, what are the actual numbers?

This is still an extremely small niche in the audio industry. NI's userbase is counted in millions of users. Users which use Linux (usually next to Win/macOS) are like 1% of that or less. So, why would anyone spend millions to support this super tiny part of the market? ROI on that would be a net loss.

I doubt that. I know about the percentage of Bitwig sales to Linux users and it is much higher than that (and growing).

... and even 1% of millions of users is quite a number no company would want to loose lightly ;-)

[BethHarmon]

Originally Posted by Lynx_TWO

Apparently SampleRobot can convert Kontakt libraries to other formats such as Soundfont2 through an automated process. Might be worth looking into if a user is trying to do so:

https://samplerobot.com/products/samplerobot-pro

Hehe. I'm sure something like BBC Symphony Orchestra will not work as an SF2 unless you don't care about lots of things such as, oh, release samples And, of course £214 is a little steep and no Linux binary available

[audiojunkie]

Originally Posted by Lynx_TWO

Apparently SampleRobot can convert Kontakt libraries to other formats such as Soundfont2 through an automated process. Might be worth looking into if a user is trying to do so:

https://samplerobot.com/products/samplerobot-pro

I've already been down that road. None of the sample converters can translate the encrypted monolithic formats, including Native Instruments. I've got arguably the best converter available (by ChickenSys), and it's still a "nope". Very early versions of Native Instruments samples that weren't encrypted could be translated.

[audiojunkie]

Originally Posted by BethHarmon

I honestly believe that you can't rely on WINE for production over the long term. One update from NI and/or one update from WINE could break Kontakt and then you are playing the downgrade and pin game. Robbert can chime in if he disagrees but I've always seen yabridge as a stop-gap...a brilliant one, but the endgame should always be native Linux versions whether that's anti-Linux companies changing their spots (hell hath frozen over!) or users finding their own reasonable native alternatives.

As you point out, we are not really lacking anything in the Linux realm for regular effects. It's only sample library stuff that is a pain.

I'll agree with that. Native versions are always going to be preferable. However, with over 600+ Linux OS versions, using various APIs/ABIs, various library versions, etc., Developers still won't be developing for your specific distro, unless you are lucky. Yes, we can usually get them to work, but just like Windows Plugins and WINE, they can be problematic. That's why I've been so fascinated with the developments that have been going on with Flatpak. They now how ways to use plugin flatpaks with DAW host flatpaks. The commercial developer only has to develop one flatpak that is then usable across all 600+ distros supporting Flatpak. Flatpaks could, in the future, be a solution to the developer conundrum. I'm optimistic about Linux. Everything just keeps getting better and better.

[audiojunkie]

Originally Posted by moss

I doubt that. I know about the percentage of Bitwig sales to Linux users and it is much higher than that (and growing).

... and even 1% of millions of users is quite a number no company would want to loose lightly ;-)

And speaking of open source and file formats, we've got Moss here! Thank you for your awesome sample converter program!! I don't think there is a better open source converter available.

[BethHarmon]

Originally Posted by audiojunkie

And speaking of open source and file formats, we've got Moss here! Thank you for your awesome sample converter program!! I don't think there is a better open source converter available.

Wow, I didn't realize. Awesome job! And look at that...binaries for all the platforms I wonder if the SFZ conversion is the full opcodes of just version 1 or does it include all of SFZ v2 opcodes (whatever that looks like in 2022)?

[moss]

Originally Posted by BethHarmon

Wow, I didn't realize. Awesome job! And look at that...binaries for all the platforms

Thanks :-)

Originally Posted by BethHarmon

I wonder if the SFZ conversion is the full opcodes of just version 1 or does it include all of SFZ v2 opcodes (whatever that looks like in 2022)?

No way, these are much too much and none of the other source/destination formats has such a huge parameter set. But you get told when an opcode is not converted during conversion.

[alextone]

Originally Posted by BethHarmon

I honestly believe that you can't rely on WINE for production over the long term. One update from NI and/or one update from WINE could break Kontakt and then you are playing the downgrade and pin game. Robbert can chime in if he disagrees but I've always seen yabridge as a stop-gap...a brilliant one, but the endgame should always be native Linux versions whether that's anti-Linux companies changing their spots (hell hath frozen over!) or users finding their own reasonable native alternatives.

As you point out, we are not really lacking anything in the Linux realm for regular effects. It's only sample library stuff that is a pain.

This. Over the years when I used Wine and instrument plugins, there was more than one occasion where wine would crash after an update, and a plugin no longer worked.

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by moss

I doubt that. I know about the percentage of Bitwig sales to Linux users and it is much higher than that (and growing).

Different market, and different size of market. Bitwig is still kinda niche I'd say. And I said less than 1%. Not worth the investment (think venture capital level).

[Xasman]

Originally Posted by 4duhwinnn

Kontakt is on sale at half-price twice a year, with further discounts available via partnership agreements if you search them out. Save money for next years sales?...

But I don't want Kontakt. Quite the contrary. I said I would welcome an open source alternative.

Anyway, it turns out there IS an open source alternative already in development (albeit still at an early stage), and this is the kind of thing I was talking about. Since it's being developed by the Surge team I assume it's also very likely to appear in CLAP format at some point.

https://github.com/surge-synthesizer/shortcircuit-xt

[moss]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

(think venture capital level).

Yes, we all see what good came out of that...

[Largos]

Shortcircuit was created as a reaction against the ongoing trend where software samplers are being designed with the primary intent of library playback. It is intended for people who consider a sampler to be a musical instrument in its own right, and not just a way to emulate other instruments.

This doesn't sound like something designed to be an alternative to Kontakt.

[alextone]

Originally Posted by moss

Yes, we all see what good came out of that...

Exactly.

We should cheer and encourage projects like CLAP and HISE, as, with enough support, they'll create a challenge for the assumption of monopolistic privilege and exclusively profit driven software corporate shareholders.

[BethHarmon]

Originally Posted by moss

Yes, we all see what good came out of that...

Originally Posted by alextone

Exactly.

We should cheer and encourage projects like CLAP and HISE, as, with enough support, they'll create a challenge for the assumption of monopolistic privilege and exclusively profit driven software corporate shareholders.

Well said.

[Xasman]

Originally Posted by Largos

This doesn't sound like something designed to be an alternative to Kontakt.

It would be for me. Depends on individual needs/wants though, sure.

[audiojunkie]

Originally Posted by alextone

The Mac version is built on the UNIX framework, yes?

IIRC, OSX is built on Open BSD (project Darwin). It functions similarly to most Linux distros, but is fundamentally different.

[audiojunkie]

Originally Posted by Xasman

But I don't want Kontakt. Quite the contrary. I said I would welcome an open source alternative.

Anyway, it turns out there IS an open source alternative already in development (albeit still at an early stage), and this is the kind of thing I was talking about. Since it's being developed by the Surge team I assume it's also very likely to appear in CLAP format at some point.

https://github.com/surge-synthesizer/shortcircuit-xt

It's been a long time since I've used Shortcircuit, but IIRC, it doesn't currently support Direct from Disk (DFD). Without that, the huge multi-gig, multisampled, multi-round-robin libraries would take forever to load, if it can even load at all. You'd then be out of RAM. This is why I like LinuxSampler. It supports DFD.

[Xasman]

Originally Posted by audiojunkie

It's been a long time since I've used Shortcircuit, but IIRC, it doesn't currently support Direct from Disk (DFD). Without that, the huge multi-gig, multisampled, multi-round-robin libraries would take forever to load, if it can even load at all. You'd then be out of RAM. This is why I like LinuxSampler. It supports DFD.

Good point. It looks from the Shortcircuit XT GitHub page that development is still in the very early stages so I guess it's probably too early to to know whether or not the Surge team are planning to add dfd functionality to a release version of Shortcircuit XT.

[EvilDragon]

Originally Posted by Largos

This doesn't sound like something designed to be an alternative to Kontakt.

Correct. SC is a complete antithesis to Kontakt. There's even no disk streaming and no timestretching!

Originally Posted by Xasman

Good point. It looks from the Shortcircuit XT GitHub page that development is still in the very early stages so I guess it's probably too early to to know whether or not the Surge team are planning to add dfd functionality to a release version of Shortcircuit XT.

DFD is not a planned feature for SC, for the time being. The main goal of initial SCXT release is to attempt and provide feature parity with SC1 and SC2 (and try to reconcile any differences they have), and maybe extend certain aspects a bit (4 instead of 2 effect slots per zone, more matrix slots, etc.).

[BethHarmon]

Originally Posted by EvilDragon

Correct. SC is a complete antithesis to Kontakt

That's a positive in my book

We need less pro-kontakt/anti-linux/venture capital talk. Riffing on Held's championing of open source stuff, I think the only people who should be offering advice about Linux are those that actually use it day in, day out ¹

-----
¹ means I'm joking (but only partially).