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Old 08-22-2019, 10:04 PM   #81
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Thanks for trying to help anyway
I have been fooled by the thread title seeming to claim the the PDC itself should be modified in some way.

But the PDC "Delay Compensation" is not what is requested to be improved, but the Total Audio Latency imposed to the project in order to implement the (correct) amount of PDC should be improved.

This of course is a perfectly rightful feature request.
-Michael
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Old 08-24-2019, 01:46 AM   #82
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no Idea what the number behind the "/" exactly is supposed to mean.
Now we know:

It states the minimum audio delay (in samples) imposed to (hypothetical) non PDC tracks by Reaper in order to be handle the PDC requested by the plugins in this track. This adds to the total input / output latency introduced by the Audio hardware in certain situations (e.g. "Arm" and "Monitor" activated).

Complicated but understandable.

And we do know that - in case there are multiple PDC requesting plugins in a row in this track - potentially this amount could be reduced by improving Reaper's design. (Confirmed by Justin.)

I doubt that there is a way to do the inter-track delay compensation without imposing a total latency other than a number of full blocks.

Hence in the end there might be two Feature requests:
1) using (the sum of a tack's plugin latencies) rounded up to a block size instead of the sum of the (each plugin's latency rounded up to a block size).
2) a project setting "disable all PDC" for recording, previewing, and live usage.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 08-24-2019 at 02:59 AM.
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Old 08-29-2019, 06:37 AM   #83
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Now we know:

It states the minimum audio delay (in samples) imposed to (hypothetical) non PDC tracks by Reaper in order to be handle the PDC requested by the plugins in this track. This adds to the total input / output latency introduced by the Audio hardware in certain situations (e.g. "Arm" and "Monitor" activated).

Complicated but understandable.

And we do know that - in case there are multiple PDC requesting plugins in a row in this track - potentially this amount could be reduced by improving Reaper's design. (Confirmed by Justin.)

I doubt that there is a way to do the inter-track delay compensation without imposing a total latency other than a number of full blocks.

Hence in the end there might be two Feature requests:
1) using (the sum of a tack's plugin latencies) rounded up to a block size instead of the sum of the (each plugin's latency rounded up to a block size).
2) a project setting "disable all PDC" for recording, previewing, and live usage.

-Michael
Thanks for all the help!

What do you personally think the chances are of this being implemented in the near future?
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Old 08-29-2019, 02:12 PM   #84
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I have no idea.

In fact this is annoying but the cases where it's mission critical seem rather seldom.

For my "Live" project I in fact switched off PDC for every single plugin: annoying but doable-.

For my mixing projects the additional total latency does not harm much.

-Michael
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Old 09-02-2019, 12:43 PM   #85
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I have no idea.

In fact this is annoying but the cases where it's mission critical seem rather seldom.

For my "Live" project I in fact switched off PDC for every single plugin: annoying but doable-.

For my mixing projects the additional total latency does not harm much.

-Michael
Well you say mission critical cases are seldom which is true but its also pretty critical to be able to write/produce music in low latency with some VSTi's while using a few popular fx and EQ/comps etc.

which just isn't possible with reaper right now. There's a good reason every other daw in existence with PDC does not do this

I think writing/producing your own music in a DAW is an important feature!
I don't see why should reaper not be good at this? it can do almost everything else amazingly


if more people knew this was going on there would be alot of upset reaper users.

I doubt people have got time to read though or even believe these few threads about this which is a shame....

maybe one day who knows.........
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Old 09-02-2019, 02:20 PM   #86
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but its also pretty critical to be able to write/produce music in low latency with some VSTi's while using a few popular fx and EQ/comps etc.....
I meant: I understand that the problem is not peceptible when rendering the project from beginning to end, but only when placing the play cursor somewhere in the middle and start playback from there.

-Michael
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Old 09-03-2019, 07:49 AM   #87
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I meant: I understand that the problem is not peceptible when rendering the project from beginning to end, but only when placing the play cursor somewhere in the middle and start playback from there.

-Michael
We starting to talk about diffrent things again.

Its quite simply extra pointless latency that makes playing/recording with vsti a nightmare.

Why would every other daw handle this correctly and all in thr exact same way if it was not critical?

Sorry but im a bit fed up that i can still only use reaper for audio recording and mixing.

Its such a shame as it could also be amazing for writing/producing
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Old 09-03-2019, 01:47 PM   #88
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Its quite simply extra pointless latency that makes playing/recording with vsti a nightmare.
Justin did confirm that this "extra pointless latency" (i.e.each plugin in a row that claims PDC will make Reaper delay the audio by at least a full sample block).

But this is not directly related to Midi and seen also in a pure audio project. AFAIU, usually VSTis don't request a PDC from the DAW,

-Michael
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Old 09-03-2019, 05:56 PM   #89
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Justin did confirm that this "extra pointless latency" (i.e.each plugin in a row that claims PDC will make Reaper delay the audio by at least a full sample block).

But this is not directly related to Midi and seen also in a pure audio project. AFAIU, usually VSTis don't request a PDC from the DAW,

-Michael

This is directly related to live midi input and directly related to live audio input. These are the two areas you can experience this unnecessary project wide latency, It will not negatively effect you doing anything else.
Of course we now know (thanks to justin) they are not the direct problem itself but you cannot say they not "directly related" as without them there would be no problem to begin with!


My problem is when playing VSTi's using a midi keyboard the "total latency" from my finger pressing on a key to the sound reaching my ears is in many cases doubled just because I choose to use a few near zero latency FX in a row and reaper will not process these fx the same way as every other major daw the exists on the market today.

this doubling of latency is nothing to do with any of my equipment or hardware or plugins it is simply poor implementation of the PDC in reaper itself.


It may surprise you there are many popular VSTi that require small amounts of PDC.

NI massive x 64samples
U-he diva 16samples
bx-Oberhausen 37samples
softube modular 2samples
U-he repro-1 16samples
U-he repro-5 22samples
U-he zebra 2 16samples

and these are not unknown random synths just ones I found in my own collection. I dont understand why you brought this up because any of this VSTi will be first in the chain and fit nicely within a full buffer as they should. Its only when u start adding FX to these that reapers latency goes badly wrong
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Old 09-03-2019, 10:28 PM   #90
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My problem is when playing VSTi's using a midi keyboard the "total latency" from my finger pressing on a key to the sound reaching my ears is in many cases doubled just because I choose to use a few near zero latency FX in a row
See the sticky thread in the "Live" subforum -> https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=213568#4 .
The obvious things to achieve low latency for Live playing are:
1) set a small block size. This of course needs decently powerful hardware. Trying to do "Live" with inappropriate hardware is a very bad idea.
2) Set the PDC to be disabled for all plugisn ( " [2 in 2 out] -> [I/O] on the plug-in interface, and choosing PDC -> Disable." )
If you want to play live and record at the same time there might be more issues, which I did not explore yet.

-Michael
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Old 09-04-2019, 05:36 AM   #91
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See the sticky thread in the "Live" subforum -> https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=213568#4 .
The obvious things to achieve low latency for Live playing are:
1) set a small block size. This of course needs decently powerful hardware. Trying to do "Live" with inappropriate hardware is a very bad idea.
2) Set the PDC to be disabled for all plugisn ( " [2 in 2 out] -> [I/O] on the plug-in interface, and choosing PDC -> Disable." )
If you want to play live and record at the same time there might be more issues, which I did not explore yet.

-Michael
my computer is about 5 years old now but was high end i7 so it can still run an "Acceptable" number of plugins for me at 64 sample buffer but again this has nothing to do with the issue. Although a new high end 16+ core cpu would be lovely!

With this issue it doesn't matter how powerful your pc is or whatever buffer you choose to run project! Reaper will for no good reason double/triple what the latency actually should be!. And just because you use a few to many low latency plugins on one track?!

Disabling every plugins PDC to get lower latency and then adjusting each track with JS +/- delay manually to get a true low latency PDC system does indeed work but what a pain in the ass for something that every other DAW PDC does automatically without any thought from the user whatsoever!

theres playing live at 32/64 samples and then theres writing/creating music at 128/256samples where your computer has a much easier workload and the latency is still acceptable for playing in live midi parts to create a song start to finish

im only talking about writing/creating your own music at 128/256 so u have all the processing power you need to add fx be creative, do a rough mix as you go Etc. Its a very common use of a DAW to play you own midi parts for VSTi in live.

Heres an example of how many people write/produce there own music with plugins live (he made the right choice of not to using reaper with any softube/waves/PA/soundtoys plugins)......

https://youtu.be/0jx6QWnNfM4?t=10

I get that you may record all your tracks as a band live without plugins or you may only use absolute zero latency plugs or even you just pencil your melodies using mouse etc but many people writing the own music follow the above example ^^^

again only a problem with reaper no other DAW!
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Old 09-04-2019, 12:18 PM   #92
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An i7 should be perfectly reasonable for most live playing applications. It should allow for a buffer size of 64 samples, provided you have a decently sound D/A specified for Live usage..

I did not suggest to add +/- delay, but just not to allow PDC at all. For live plying it should be more beneficial to hear a sound event as soon as possible than to align the sound events from multiple tracks.

For live playing I use a PC with a great lot of VSTs and VSTis. I disabled PDC wherever it appeared. (unfortunately Reaper does not provide a global disable for PDC ).

For recording we use a second PC, independent of my live setup which is dedicated to be an "instrument". (Happily we do have multiple Reaper licenses in the band )

I did say that when recording at the same time, additional issues (unknown to me) might appear. Maybe Reaper is not done/specified for that.

-Michael (not intending to do any loop based recording, ever)

Last edited by mschnell; 09-08-2019 at 10:25 PM.
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Old 09-08-2019, 05:11 PM   #93
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Dissent - I'm in the same boat as you, struggling with this issue too, perhaps this could help you -

I've actually created a Cubase style 'PDC' toggle button on the main toolbar that is linked to the action 'bypass all fx with pdc latency higher than 64 samples'. I click this when I need to lay something down via midi, then click it back off when I'm done.

Not a perfect solution as the sound of the mix obviously changes when you click it, but it's better than nothing.

Whilst I'd love for this to be fixed, I haven't found the additional plugin latency problems to be much of an issue outside of vsti recording - have you?
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Old 09-08-2019, 05:25 PM   #94
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While we're on the subject of buffering live inputs/vsti's - what I'd really love to see is a dual buffer system a la Studio one 4 - wherein you have the option to let anything that is being monitored live be processed through a lower buffer, and everything else on playback is processed through the main higher buffer (I believe this is what Cubendo's 'Asio Guard' is doing too, although not nearly as smoothly in my experience). You can get a little bit of this effect by disabling media buffering and anticipative fx for selected tracks, but it's no where near as effective/elegant as S1's system.

I'm guessing it's not trivial to implement though.
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Old 09-09-2019, 02:08 AM   #95
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Dissent - I'm in the same boat as you, struggling with this issue too, perhaps this could help you -

I've actually created a Cubase style 'PDC' toggle button on the main toolbar that is linked to the action 'bypass all fx with pdc latency higher than 64 samples'. I click this when I need to lay something down via midi, then click it back off when I'm done.

Not a perfect solution as the sound of the mix obviously changes when you click it, but it's better than nothing.

Whilst I'd love for this to be fixed, I haven't found the additional plugin latency problems to be much of an issue outside of vsti recording - have you?
Hi Joe that sounds like a really good solution for now! how are you making the action only bypass fx with 64+ samples pdc? Rescript?

If so is there anyway you could send me or upload the action/script?

thanks!

Edit "yes a dual buffer would be awesome in the long run but for now just having a normal PDC system that behaves like every other DAW would be a great start!"

Last edited by dissentuk; 09-09-2019 at 02:17 AM.
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Old 09-10-2019, 10:17 PM   #96
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Hi Joe that sounds like a really good solution for now! how are you making the action only bypass fx with 64+ samples pdc? Rescript?
ReaPack/mpl_Toggle bypass all project FX with latency (PDC) higher than X samples

Make into a toggling cycle action, then attach it to a toggling toolbar button.
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Old 09-24-2020, 04:40 AM   #97
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The way Reaper compensates for plugin delay is really not great. Moreover if all others DAW compensate for that with exact sample delay.
What worried me the most is that it means my mix won't sound the same depending the buffer I set in reaper while mixing.
Is this PDC handling the same when bouncing the full mix? Does it use the buffer settings value in that case?
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Old 09-24-2020, 05:51 AM   #98
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Hi spinal this was all fixed a little while back.

The buffer settings will have no influence on the sound or phase coherence of your mix, everything will be perfectly synced.

So dont not worry!. Reaper actually has one of the best mutlicore utilisation and low latency performence out of all the major daws now
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Old 09-24-2020, 07:14 AM   #99
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Hi spinal this was all fixed a little while back.

The buffer settings will have no influence on the sound or phase coherence of your mix, everything will be perfectly synced.

So dont not worry!. Reaper actually has one of the best mutlicore utilisation and low latency performence out of all the major daws now
Hi dissentuk,

I'm running reaper 6.14 and I still see in the FX window that the compensation is done based on buffer size chunk, not exact samples number compensation.
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Old 09-24-2020, 10:48 AM   #100
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Hi dissentuk,

I'm running reaper 6.14 and I still see in the FX window that the compensation is done based on buffer size chunk, not exact samples number compensation.
sorry your right just checked its still not implemented! have no idea why I thought it was?!

well I guess industry standard low latency PDC performance just isn't a priority for the development team right now

A side note, when it is implemented it will probably still come up in whole buffers as any latency compensation needs to fit inside at least one whole buffer. It just wont double the buffer everytime you add a plugin!
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Old 09-24-2020, 11:35 AM   #101
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sorry your right just checked its still not implemented! have no idea why I thought it was?!

well I guess industry standard low latency PDC performance just isn't a priority for the development team right now

A side note, when it is implemented it will probably still come up in whole buffers as any latency compensation needs to fit inside at least one whole buffer. It just wont double the buffer everytime you add a plugin!
It is still in beta / pre-relase stage.
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Old 09-24-2020, 11:42 AM   #102
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It is still in beta / pre-relase stage.
great awesome to hear its still on the way! I will now go back to lurking on the forums....
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Old 09-24-2020, 10:11 PM   #103
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the compensation is done based on buffer size chunk, not exact samples number compensation.
This is just a (complicated, partly improvable) technical requirement influencing the total delay of the signal flow. It is compensated by delaying the other tracks appropriately and hence will not modify the sound of the rendered result.
-Michael
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Old 09-25-2020, 05:05 AM   #104
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This is just a (complicated, partly improvable) technical requirement influencing the total delay of the signal flow. It is compensated by delaying the other tracks appropriately and hence will not modify the sound of the rendered result.
-Michael
Hummm, it looks like right now delay compensation is a roundup value of the real plugin delay to the next multiple buffer size. It means different buffer size lead to phase change between tracks, hence changing the sound of the rendered result.
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Old 09-25-2020, 05:05 AM   #105
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It is still in beta / pre-relase stage.
Good to know!
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Old 09-25-2020, 01:52 PM   #106
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Good to know!
This will only affect (in certain cases improve) the total delay of project, not the relative delay between tracks (as AFAIK, this already is flawless)
-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 09-30-2020 at 10:28 PM.
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Old 09-29-2020, 11:38 PM   #107
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What do I have to search for in the dev release notes about this being worked on? Had a look into it on the pre-release server but no luck finding it.
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