Old 10-27-2017, 02:13 PM   #1
salazarspanish
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Hi all,

I started using Sforzando with my VSO2 instruments by Versilian Studios. I understand how to import an instrument, record it, and edit the MIDI, but that's about the extent of my knowledge so far

Does the REAPER website or YouTube channel (or any other resource) have videos about creating music with Sforzando and VSCO2 instruments specifically? I am a classical musician, and my goal is to produce a classical piece in REAPER.

Here are a few things I would like to learn:
What software (REAPER or otherwise) do I use to edit the sound of an instrument to make it more realistic? (If that's even possible.)
How do I change the tempo in different stages of my recording?
What shortcuts, if any, can I use to more easily transition from pizzicato to arco on my MIDI keyboard or computer keyboard.

I don't know if any such tutorials exists, but ANY resources regarding REAPER, SFZ, VSCO2, and anything else is welcome. Primarily, I just want to know how to produce realistic, classical MIDI music on a budget. Thanks!

Last edited by salazarspanish; 10-27-2017 at 03:13 PM. Reason: Wanted to make question more general.
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Old 10-28-2017, 09:39 AM   #2
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A1: Reaper's MIDI Editor (check out the Notation mode), you do not need anything-else.

A2: You can add tempo changes at any point in Reaper's Arranger

A3: I do not know how Sforzando / VSCO2 (Community Edition? - right?) implements articulations. The Kontakt edition uses Keyswitches (specific MIDI notes, outside the normal playing range). Maybe those are implemented in Sforzando, i do not know.
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Old 10-28-2017, 10:32 AM   #3
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^^^^^^^^^^^ Yeah, what DS says.

I don't remember what all Sforzando has available, if I remember correctly it has reverb, EQ, Tuning, and regular controls such as Pan and Volume. However Sforzando is one of the better freebies, because it has DFD (Direct From Disk) mode.

Like DS says, Kontakt is about as good as it gets, and since you are a classical musician, I don't think there's another sampler that offers the number of orchestra libraries that Kontakt does.

It's a little spendy, but it's worth every penny. Kontakt aslo comes with a complete orchestra library, and although the quality isn't nearly as good as the more expensive libraries, it is usable.

A while back, I helped Big Bob when he created the Velocity Keyswitch Multi-script and I used Kontakt's orchestra library to demonstrate it. I did this so that it would be compatible with all Kontact users.

It's not a real composition, I was demonstrating the the keyswitches with different instruments, but it's give you and idea of how they sound. This is the video.

https://youtu.be/zBmX2zDPfJ0
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Old 10-28-2017, 01:06 PM   #4
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OK, thank you. What do you mean by "Kontakt edition"?

Last edited by salazarspanish; 10-28-2017 at 01:06 PM. Reason: shortened the question
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Old 10-29-2017, 08:46 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
A1: Reaper's MIDI Editor (check out the Notation mode), you do not need anything-else.

A2: You can add tempo changes at any point in Reaper's Arranger

A3: I do not know how Sforzando / VSCO2 (Community Edition? - right?) implements articulations. The Kontakt edition uses Keyswitches (specific MIDI notes, outside the normal playing range). Maybe those are implemented in Sforzando, i do not know.
I guess I was mainly talking to DarkStar. You said Kontakt edition. Do you mean the Standard Edition of VSCO2?
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Old 10-30-2017, 02:43 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by salazarspanish View Post
I guess I was mainly talking to DarkStar. You said Kontakt edition. Do you mean the Standard Edition of VSCO2?
The VSCO2 Community Edition is available in multiple different formats: http://vis.versilstudios.net/vsco-community.html

As example:
- as SFZ - which you are currently using with Sforzando
- as Kontakt instrument (requires the full version of Kontakt) - this is the 'Kontakt edition' which DarkStar mentioned
- as VSTi (Windows) or AU (macOS) plugin
- etc.

If you don't have Kontakt (full version), you might also have a look at the VSTi / AU version instead to see how this one compares to the SFZ version.

Last edited by solger; 10-30-2017 at 02:55 AM.
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Old 10-30-2017, 10:20 AM   #7
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I only mentioned the Kontakt Edition (the library built as Kontakt instruments) as the sounds library uses Keyswitches there, but I do not know if SForzando supports them in the .sfz format of the library.
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Old 10-30-2017, 10:31 AM   #8
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solger, thanks for the clarification. Unfortunately, the VSTi option would lead me back to another thread that I started, "REAPER crashes when opening a project." In this thread, I explained that I was using the Community Edition of VSCO2 in VSTi format, but after saving a project, REAPER would crash when trying to open it.

There were several different responses to my issue, and I tried all of them. Bigcat responded and told me to use the SFZ version of VSCO2 CE, so I did. While this fixed the crashing problem, I was still kind of lost when using Sforzando, and it seemed there were some limitations when using it, which is the reason for this thread.

I checked out Kontakt. It's a bit out my price range for now, lol. I'm a college student without a job, but maybe I can get one or my parents can pitch in XD. At this point, I'll just ask if you guys recommend anything comparable to Kontkat and a little cheaper? It's probably too good to be true, but hey, it's worth a shot.

Thanks so far!
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Old 10-30-2017, 11:07 AM   #9
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I had a quick look at the SFZ version and it looks like there are multiple variations available for the same instrument or ensemble. Some files only include samples with a single articulation, but there are also files which include multiple articulations via Keyswitches. So in general it depends on which SFZ file you are loading ...

As example:

ViolinEnsPizz.sfz -> pizzicato
ViolinEnsSpic.sfz -> spiccato
ViolinEnsTrem.sfz -> tremolo
ViolinEnsSusVib.sfz -> sustain vibrato
ViolinEns-KS.sfz -> includes Keyswitches (KS) on lower notes for switching between different articulations
...

Quote:
... I'll just ask if you guys recommend anything comparable to Kontkat and a little cheaper?
Some things to check out in general:

- SFZ Instruments or plugins from this list: http://bigcatlists.blogspot.co.at/
- The free Komplete Players (which are entry versions with limited features + some bundled content): https://www.native-instruments.com/e...plete-players/

As a side note: certain Kontakt Libraries/instruments can also be used with the free Kontakt Player (which is part of the Komplete Players) - it's usually mentioned in the requirements if a Kontakt library/instrument is also compatible with the free Kontakt Player. Or if it requires full Kontakt.

Last edited by solger; 10-30-2017 at 11:26 AM.
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Old 10-30-2017, 11:14 AM   #10
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^^^^
Interesting - I do not have any _KS instruments here (the .sfz files are dated July 2016). Getting the updated library now.

The main outstanding issue seems to be how Sforzando (or another .sfz player) support articulation changes - but each instrument articulation is a separate .sfz instrument. Ideally, someone who has Sforzando will chime in.

Or you could look at CWITEC's TX16Wx:

>>> https://i.imgur.com/7pfadZf.png

Here, I have loaded 4 Cello articulations into separate program slots - each articulation is driven by MIDI notes on a different MIDI channel. Or, with a bit of work you can create keyswitched instruments. Maybe someone has already done that for TX16Wx?
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Old 10-30-2017, 11:32 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
^^^^
Interesting - I do not have any _KS instruments here (the .sfz files are dated July 2016). Getting the updated library now.
The Last Modified Date here is February 2017.

Quote:
The main outstanding issue seems to be how Sforzando (or another .sfz player) support articulation changes - but each instrument articulation is a separate .sfz instrument. Ideally, someone who has Sforzando will chime in.
When I load, for instance, the ViolinEns-KS.sfz file, I can switch between 4 articulations with the highlighted notes on the left.
In this case C2 (sustain vibrato), C#2 (tremolo), D2 (spiccato), D#2 (pizzicato):

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File Type: jpg sforzano-keyswitch.JPG (61.2 KB, 1173 views)

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Old 10-30-2017, 11:37 AM   #12
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^^^^
That looks OK. I guess that it would be one articulated instrument in each instance of Sforzando?
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Old 10-30-2017, 11:48 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
^^^^
That looks OK. I guess that it would be one articulated instrument in each instance of Sforzando?
If I understand the question correctly: you have both options
A Keyswitch version file (with multiple articulations) and files with a single articulation.

It basically depends on what SFZ file you're loading (since it looks like Sforzando can only load one SFZ file at a time).

So you can, for instance, either load each of the single articulation files into 4 separate Sforzando instances:
- ViolinEnsPizz.sfz
- ViolinEnsSpic.sfz
- ViolinEnsTrem.sfz
- ViolinEnsSusVib.sfz

Or load the ViolinEns-KS.sfz (with all four articulations) into a single Sforzando instance.

Last edited by solger; 10-30-2017 at 12:11 PM.
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Old 10-30-2017, 12:52 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solger View Post
If I understand the question correctly: you have both options
A Keyswitch version file (with multiple articulations) and files with a single articulation.

It basically depends on what SFZ file you're loading (since it looks like Sforzando can only load one SFZ file at a time).

So you can, for instance, either load each of the single articulation files into 4 separate Sforzando instances:
- ViolinEnsPizz.sfz
- ViolinEnsSpic.sfz
- ViolinEnsTrem.sfz
- ViolinEnsSusVib.sfz

Or load the ViolinEns-KS.sfz (with all four articulations) into a single Sforzando instance.
I wonder what the Controls page would look like with ViolinEns-KS.sfz. This is how the Controls page looks in Sforzando with the full SMDrum kit.



To me the thing that sets Sforzando above other freebies is the DFD in Settings.


My Garritan JABB3 shows up in Sforzando but it can't load the samples. When I load a combination with keyswitches it looks interesting, but of course there are no samples. The Controls page has all the CC controls available for each instrument along with an EQ. There are 11 CC controllers.
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Old 10-30-2017, 12:58 PM   #15
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I wonder what the Controls page would look like with ViolinEns-KS.sfz.
Hey Tod, there's not much going on there

Vol (CC7) and Pan (CC10) in % which can also be set with the Vol/Pan knobs at the top.

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Old 10-30-2017, 03:39 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by solger View Post
Some things to check out in general:

- SFZ Instruments or plugins from this list: http://bigcatlists.blogspot.co.at/
- The free Komplete Players (which are entry versions with limited features + some bundled content): https://www.native-instruments.com/e...plete-players/
Thanks solger, I'll look into these. Looks like there are plenty of free or low-cost options to choose from. Time to experiment
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Old 11-01-2017, 07:21 PM   #17
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Don't know if this should be in a new thread or not, but...

I was taking a look at free/cheap options to use with the free Kontakt 5 Player and was experimenting with them. I was picky when it came to free options, so I went ahead and checked out the paid ones.

What to you guys think about the Komplete Elements bundle? It looks like it has everything I would want for now. From what I saw, it is compatible with Kontakt 5 Player (I think). Should I get it, and where is the best place to purchase?
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Old 11-02-2017, 02:09 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by salazarspanish View Post
I was taking a look at free/cheap options to use with the free Kontakt 5 Player and was experimenting with them. I was picky when it came to free options, so I went ahead and checked out the paid ones.
Did you also download the Kontakt Factory Selection for the free Kontakt Player? https://www.native-instruments.com/e...free-download/

Quote:
What to you guys think about the Komplete Elements bundle? It looks like it has everything I would want for now. From what I saw, it is compatible with Kontakt 5 Player (I think). Should I get it, and where is the best place to purchase?
I'll try to give some general hints

The things included in Komplete ELements are compatible with the free Players of Kontakt, Reaktor and Guitar Rig: https://www.native-instruments.com/e...uded-products/
And it doesn't look like that NI is selling Komplete Elements anymore on its own, since the current entry bundle for Komplete is now Komplete 11 Select: https://www.native-instruments.com/e...elect/compare/

But you might have some look finding a fresh or second-hand copy of either Komplete Elements or any of the older Komplete Bundles (version 8 to 10), on some other marketplaces, like Amazon or:
- the Sell & Buy section on the NI Forum: https://www.native-instruments.com/f....23030/page-52
- the KVR Marketplace: https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=43
- etc.

In general, for the price all Komplete bundles are a great value in comparison to buying some of the included products separately. So I'd say it basically comes down to your budget and if the products included in a certain Komplete bundle are worth getting one for you.

Also keep in mind that you can use certain products (like Komplete Select) as base product for getting a cheaper update/upgrade license to a bigger Komplete Version (Komplete 11 or Komplete 11 Ultimate - which both include the full version of Kontakt) at any time later: https://support.native-instruments.c...nd-Crossgrades

Some NI hardware products also include a copy of Komplete Elements or Select, which might be something to check out, as well, if you're planning on getting a MIDI keyboard or audio interface anyway.

And NI usually has sales in the summer and at the end of a year. So it might be worth waiting until the end of this year to see what NI products are on sale then.

Last edited by solger; 11-02-2017 at 04:04 AM.
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Old 11-02-2017, 10:01 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by salazarspanish View Post
Don't know if this should be in a new thread or not, but...

I was taking a look at free/cheap options to use with the free Kontakt 5 Player and was experimenting with them. I was picky when it came to free options, so I went ahead and checked out the paid ones.

What to you guys think about the Komplete Elements bundle? It looks like it has everything I would want for now. From what I saw, it is compatible with Kontakt 5 Player (I think). Should I get it, and where is the best place to purchase?
It's on sale today for $19 dollars and if you have a way of using it, you can't go wrong.

However, I don't think you'll find a lot for creating classical music. It has the "Vienna Symphonic Library Orchestra" which I'm sure is a scaled down version of the "Legacy Vienna Orchestra" in Kontakt. They're okay, If you listened to that video I posted, the strings I used there were from the Vienna Orchestra. But I don't think you'll get the other orchestra instuments like the horn, brass, woodwinds and percussion.

I've got both Komplete 9 and Komplete 11, which I got as an update from Kontakt, for $200 and it was well worth it. However there wasn't much there for serious classical composition. It's got Session String Pro, which I use in conjunction with some other libraries I have, for my string arrangments, but on their own there pretty thin sounding. I'm mainly a producer and I consider the other stuff I got in Komplete 11 to be kind of a gold mine.

But really, for $19 there's still a lot there.
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Old 11-02-2017, 11:43 AM   #20
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Did you also download the Kontakt Factory Selection for the free Kontakt Player? https://www.native-instruments.com/e...free-download/
I did, but the number of orchestral instruments looks limited.

Quote:
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However, I don't think you'll find a lot for creating classical music. It has the "Vienna Symphonic Library Orchestra" which I'm sure is a scaled down version of the "Legacy Vienna Orchestra" in Kontakt.
Yeah, I found this out shortly after my last reply I know it’s a good bargain, but not exactly what I’m looking for. I did some more research on paid orchestra libraries for Kontakt 5 Player that won’t break the bank…

Even though it costs more than I would like, I looked at the VSCO2 Professional Edition, which is $229 and works with Kontakt Player. However, does this mean it will work only as a demo? I’ve heard some stories of people trying out third-party software in Kontakt 5 Player, only to find that it times out after 30 minutes or so.

I compared the sound quality of Vienna Orchestra (from Tod’s demonstration video) to VSCO2, and to me VSCO2 was more believable. Only thing is: will using VSCO2 PE with Kontakt Player give me similar options compared to using it with the full version of Kontakt?

It feels like I’m being too cautious, but I usually am when money is involved XD.
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Old 11-02-2017, 12:17 PM   #21
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I did, but the number of orchestral instruments looks limited.
Yeah, it's usually the case that entry or free versions have certain limitations in features and content in order to tempt you into getting the bigger versions

Quote:
Even though it costs more than I would like, I looked at the VSCO2 Professional Edition, which is $229 and works with Kontakt Player. However, does this mean it will work only as a demo? I’ve heard some stories of people trying out third-party software in Kontakt 5 Player, only to find that it times out after 30 minutes or so.
According to the product page, the Professional Edition is also compatible with the free Kontakt Player ('430 NKI for Kontakt Player or full Kontakt 5.6+'): http://vis.versilstudios.net/vsco-pro.html
So you should be good to go: https://vi-control.net/community/thr...-player.64683/

In comparison the requirements for the Standard Edition state only 'for Full Kontakt', so the Standard Edition would only be usable in Demo Mode (usually 30 minutes per session) with the free Kontakt Player.
So basically Kontakt Libraries which are only compatible with full Kontakt, will only be usable in Demo Mode in the free Kontakt Player.

Last edited by solger; 11-02-2017 at 12:42 PM.
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Old 11-02-2017, 03:04 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by salazarspanish View Post
Even though it costs more than I would like, I looked at the VSCO2 Professional Edition, which is $229 and works with Kontakt Player. However, does this mean it will work only as a demo? I’ve heard some stories of people trying out third-party software in Kontakt 5 Player, only to find that it times out after 30 minutes or so.
One thing to think about is that Kontakt goes on sale at various times of the year. You can pickup the free version of a drum library that works in the free Kontakt player and then get more off as an update. Off hand I don't remember the name of the drum library but maybe solger does.

Quote:
I compared the sound quality of Vienna Orchestra (from Tod’s demonstration video) to VSCO2, and to me VSCO2 was more believable. Only thing is: will using VSCO2 PE with Kontakt Player give me similar options compared to using it with the full version of Kontakt?

It feels like I’m being too cautious, but I usually am when money is involved XD.
Just so you know, I didn't go to any great length to make those strings sound as good as they could. EQ and especially good reverb works pretty well.

Regarding the player vrs the full Kontakt, the player is actually pretty limited. I actually haven't used the player for a long time but if I remember correctly, it was quite limited.

Something else to consider, All of Kontakts libraries are completely open for editing anything, including the samples. I can't begin to tell how much I've learned, by experimenting with most of the features that Kontakt has. Not only about Kontakt, but about samples and how sample libraries work to get the most out of them.

I'm sorry to be pushing Kontakt, I just think for my self that it's the best piece of software I've ever gotten. Heh heh, well I couldn't live without a DAW like Reaper either.
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Old 11-02-2017, 03:43 PM   #23
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Tod, I looked up the drum thing. Is it Sennheiser's Drummic'a ?
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Old 11-02-2017, 04:36 PM   #24
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Tod, I looked up the drum thing. Is it Sennheiser's Drummic'a ?
Yes, that's it.
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Old 11-03-2017, 07:38 AM   #25
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Thanks everyone! I registered DrumMic'a. I'll probably wait around Black Friday or Christmas to see if the cross grade will be any cheaper. Until then, I'll play around and record with what I have available
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Old 11-03-2017, 08:10 AM   #26
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Thanks everyone! I registered DrumMic'a. I'll probably wait around Black Friday or Christmas to see if the cross grade will be any cheaper. Until then, I'll play around and record with what I have available
I don't think you'll regret it salazarspanish, heh heh, I hope not, because I'd feel bad.
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Old 11-03-2017, 09:01 AM   #27
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Thanks everyone! I registered DrumMic'a. I'll probably wait around Black Friday or Christmas to see if the cross grade will be any cheaper. Until then, I'll play around and record with what I have available
Great
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