Old 01-24-2013, 08:56 AM   #1
mabian
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Default v4.33pre2 - January 24 2013

v4.33pre2 - January 24 2013
+ OSC: fixed FX parameter feedback for some ReaPlugs
+ MIDI editor: fixed editor sometimes opening undocked when it should be docked
# MIDI editor track list: enable activating by track if the track holds only one MIDI media item
# MIDI editor track list: fixed disappearing track list
# MIDI editor track list: always show track numbers
# MIDI editor: support for mouse-deleting notes from multiple media items
# MIDI editor track list: support for mouse-sweeping some columns

v4.33pre1 - January 22 2013
+ Video: improved QuickTime audio decoding
+ OSX: Improved cursor behavior when mouseover on nonfocused windows
+ MIDI track list: shift+click expands/collapses folders or track items
+ MIDI media item lane and track list: shift+ or alt+ click controls whether switching the active media item clears the editor first (optional)
+ MIDI editor: filter window now filters only MIDI events, not media items
+ MIDI editor: media items that are visible and selected may also be edited
+ MIDI editor: track list and media item lane control which media item is active, which others are visible
+ MIDI editor: new track list and media item lane, and theme elements
+ Multiprocessing: improved anticipative FX with sends to tracks that use PDC [t=113560]

- Mario
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Old 01-24-2013, 09:52 AM   #2
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Thanks so much, devs!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mabian View Post
# MIDI editor track list: enable activating by track if the track holds only one MIDI media item
This is great, but it'd be nice if it wasn't restricted to tracks with only one MIDI media item. Possible ways to choose which item to activate:
  1. The first item

  2. The item "nearest" timewise by some measure to the currently active item

  3. The item nearest the edit cursor

  4. The track's previously active item, defaulting to one of the above methods if none has been active before


My preference would probably be 4 defaulting to 1, since it seems like a nice combination of usability and predictability.

Quote:
# MIDI editor: support for mouse-deleting notes from multiple media items
# MIDI editor track list: support for mouse-sweeping some columns
Excellent!

Last edited by medicine tactic; 01-24-2013 at 10:04 AM.
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:01 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mabian View Post
# MIDI editor: support for mouse-deleting notes from multiple media items
Tried alt+leftclick and doubleclick, works only on the focused midi item but not for multiple items.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mabian View Post
# MIDI editor track list: support for mouse-sweeping some columns
It doesn't have the same feel as in the TCP and MCP. Right now you really have to hit every icon in a row with the cursor. It would make more sense to use the vertical position of the cursor.
Bug: sweepe from the lowest to the highest icon and back to the lowest(don't release the leftclick): the lowest and the one above stay active.
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:10 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaktor:[Dave] View Post
Tried alt+leftclick and doubleclick, works only on the focused midi item but not for multiple items.
Make sure the items are selected (editable).
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:23 AM   #5
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Good progress.

annoyance: There is a MIDI editor flash everytime you select a different item. The whole editor refreshes resulting in a brief flash.
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:34 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medicine tactic View Post
Make sure the items are selected (editable).
I selected the items in the track list. It doesn't work. It only works for the focused item. How exactly did you do this?
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:38 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reaktor:[Dave] View Post
Tried alt+leftclick and doubleclick, works only on the focused midi item but not for multiple items.
Sorry, this is only working (so far) for alt+sweeping across notes. We'll fix it so alt+leftclick on a note (when that mouse modifier is set to erase notes, which is not the default) and double-clicking will work as well.

Basically there are about a million behaviors that need to be fixed up to work for multiple selected MIDI media items, we're just going to chip away one at a time.
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:39 AM   #8
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Item source looping changed, but is not quite right yet. Now the item edge extends in steps way further than the drawn note if source loop is OFF.

If I then turn the source loop ON, I can still just draw pushing the item edge forward, unless I manually drag the loop bar visible from the end of the item.

Both examples in this licecap:
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:47 AM   #9
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Thanks Schwa. Sweepe works fine. Looking forward to the mouse modifier support
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:48 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xpander View Post
Item source looping changed, but is not quite right yet. Now the item edge extends in steps way further than the drawn note if source loop is OFF.

If I then turn the source loop ON, I can still just draw pushing the item edge forward, unless I manually drag the loop bar visible from the end of the item.
The behavior with loop disabled is a bug. The behavior with loop enabled is by design. When the media item loop is enabled, auto-extend will only work if the media item boundaries are the same as the contents (that is, if the item does not actually loop in practice). If the media item contains multiple loop iterations, you can't automatically extend the item.
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:49 AM   #11
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I see you removed "untitled" from the track list when Ctrl+drawing in empty MIDI items.


Please be consistent and remove "untitled" in general from such items. It's just unnecessary!


It's also kinda weird that when as soon as you draw in a second item in the track, the names automatically change to just numbers denoting the bar.beat of the item start. Either name all items by bar.beat start position EVERYWHERE in Reaper, or nowhere. Don't mix and match...
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:52 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
The behavior with loop enabled is by design. When the media item loop is enabled, auto-extend will only work if the media item boundaries are the same as the contents (that is, if the item does not actually loop in practice). If the media item contains multiple loop iterations, you can't automatically extend the item.
Thanks Schwa, that explains the second part.
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:53 AM   #13
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Suggestion - Ctrl+click the color box to set a random color for the track (all items following this color). Shift+click on this box randomly color track and random colors for all items on that track.
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:07 AM   #14
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Very nice additions for the Midi editor.


Regard J
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:07 AM   #15
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Schwa, could you please comment on these issues?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
There seems to be some inconsistency with the visible/editable(=selected?)/active items/tracks.

You can have an active item that is not selected. Is this by design? Why?

You can have a selected item that is invisible (thus uneditable even though it is selected). Is this by design? Why?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
I'm not quite convinced that using track/item selection as the editability control is a good solution in MIDI editor's track list.

I think a separate editability icon and column in track list, similar to visibility "eyes", would be better.

Here are some problems in current solution:
1. You can't manage multiple selections with mouse only, without mouse modifier keys. This is a bit awkward.

2. It would be difficult to add swipe support to the current selection based design. Marquee selection support could be added, but it would not be the same as proper swipe implementation (like the TCP column in Track Manager). And again, modifier keys would be probably needed.

3. Renaming tracks or items in track list (double click) will mess up the editability selections.

4. It is not very intuitive. User must know what is the "meaning" of selection in the track list. There is nothing in the GUI hinting the user that editing multiple tracks at the same time is even possible.

5. Currently it is difficult to identify the selected items in media item lane. Especially when there are multiple items with different colors the darker selected items don't stand out clearly. This issue is kind of different than the others above because this could be easily solved with better graphical emphasizing of selected items (for example red borders or something)

Another thing I'm wondering is the "active" item/track column. Do we really need a complete column for something that can be enabled in only one item/track at a time? The icon graphics kind of suggest that it means "target". If there will be a possibility to enable multiple targets at the same time, then are all those targets "active" at the same time? I think there will be always need to have one single (never multiple) "active" item/track even when multiple targets are supported.

It would be nice to hear from devs what was the thinking behind those decisions.
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:07 PM   #16
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hey guys ...more midi work in progress... that's a GOOD thing... cheer on the Dev's
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Old 01-24-2013, 12:27 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Suggestion - Ctrl+click the color box to set a random color for the track (all items following this color). Shift+click on this box randomly color track and random colors for all items on that track.
Would like this too since I often end up using random colouring to differentiate between items.
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:14 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mabian View Post
+ MIDI editor: fixed editor sometimes opening undocked when it should be docked
Yesyesyesyesyes

It seems to work properly now on my work machine. Would love to test it out on my main setup but I'm too scurred to install a Pre. Eagerly look forward to the 4.33 release.
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:25 PM   #19
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jnif, almost all of your questions come back to the basic decision to make media item selection equivalent to editability. This decision isn't set in stone yet, but we're going to try it for a while to see how it works.
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:35 PM   #20
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BUG:
Track List mouse cursor offset bug

Introduced in v4.33pre1
Still present in v4.33pre2

EDIT: Everything is OK if I have 52 TCPs with 1 MIDI Media Item on each TCP.

If I have 53 or more TCPs, each with 1 MIDI Media Item, this offset bug occurs.

To repro:
1.) Click on a button in the Track List
2.) The button to the RIGHT of the mouse cursor
position registers the click

(examples:
- click the [color] box, it selects the [active item arrow thing]
- click the [active item arrow thing], it selects the [eye] button
- click the [eye] button , it selects the [record arm] button
- click the [record arm] button, it selects the [m] button
- click the [m] button , it selects the [s] button
- click the [s] button, nothing gets selected
(because there are no buttons to the right of the [s] button)
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Old 01-24-2013, 01:38 PM   #21
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I think it would be valid to connect selecting items to editability. It's a fast workflow, but it needs to excercise caution.
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:19 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeroephonics View Post
BUG:
Track List mouse cursor offset bug

Introduced in v4.33pre1
Still present in v4.33pre2
I thought this was fixed in pre2.

Is there any connection between the bug manifesting itself, and the track list vertical scrollbar appearing or not appearing?
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:30 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
I think it would be valid to connect selecting items to editability. It's a fast workflow, but it needs to excercise caution.
Could you explain in more detail why you think it's fast workflow?

I tried to explain in detail how it is NOT fast. It is unintuitive and complicated in track list (compared to swipeable editability icon column).

In media item lane it might work better, but not in the track list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
This decision isn't set in stone yet, but we're going to try it for a while to see how it works.
Could you explain why you decided to try it? What is so good about this solution?
Is there some reason not to try solutions used in other DAWs and proposed by users? I'm not totally serious about these questions. Obviously you don't need to explain everything you do to us users. But sometimes it could help.

jnif

Last edited by jnif; 01-24-2013 at 02:37 PM.
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:34 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Is there any connection between the bug manifesting itself, and the track list vertical scrollbar appearing or not appearing?
That's it! If the scrollbar is present, it somehow messes with the hitpoints.

I checked with 20 TCPs.

If I can see all of the Tracks & Items in the Track List, with no scrollbar, everything works OK.

If I reduce the MIDI Editor height so that the Track List scrollbar appears, the bug occurs.


Increase MIDI Editor height so the scrollbar goes away, everything is OK again (all with the same Track count.)

Thanks, Schwa!
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:42 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
In media item lane it might work better, but not in the track list.
True, in the media lane it would work better, that was my thinking.


I do agree with your proposal on how track list selection should work when multiple items are found on a track. I find that very logical.
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:51 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mabian View Post
# MIDI editor track list: always show track numbers
I'd like a checkbox for this somewhere. I don't need track numbers in the track list here - names of tracks according to how I name them is perfectly enough. :S


Track list doesn't remember its width completely. Try this: new project, new track, new MIDI item, doubleclick to edit in ME, set track list width. Exit ME, delete the item, create a new one, open ME. Not the same width.

Also - new project, new track, new item, enter ME, set TL width, close ME, add new item, open that new item in ME, different TL width.


Please, I want to set ONE width globally for whole Reaper here. I kindly ask for this possibility!
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:57 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
Could you explain why you decided to try it? What is so good about this solution?
The main advantages are to be able to control editability from the arrange view, persistence (media items are either selected or not, it doesn't depend on whether the item appears in a midi editor or multiple editors), minimizing state, and simplicity.

Your usability concerns seem to be focused not on the fact that media item selection and editability are equivalent, but rather on how media items are selected in the track list. Items could instead be selected via a swipable column.
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Old 01-24-2013, 03:01 PM   #28
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Right. So if you select just the track, ALL the items on that track should be immediately selected/editable. That's basically what's needed here to make something akin to "track-based" workflow.
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Old 01-24-2013, 03:20 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
True, in the media lane it would work better, that was my thinking.
Yes, selection based editability control is fast in media item lane because you can use marquee selection there.
But the actual result of this operation has nothing to do with actually selecting those items. It is only a way to control editability state and a way to display this state to user.

Or this is how it should be, I think. It should have nothing to do with actually selecting items. Currently it does not work like that. Currently selection defines also the set of items that will be moved in media item lane if you alt+drag items. This is quite confusing. For example if you have multiple items on single track and you like to edit them all at the same time. You make them all editable by selecting them all. Then you would like to move one item in the middle. It is not possible. You have to first unselect all the other items, then move the item, and then again select all the items.

And where will this all end if development continues on the current path and more features will be added? I think it will become even more complex. Users would like to do all kinds of operations (for example mute, change color, etc.) to selected items in media item lane because it is so fast. But then there would be always the problem that selection means also editable.

And this lead also to another question.
Why this fast marquee based control is limited only to editability control?
Why not allow also visibility control by drawing marquees over items in the media item lane?

Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
Your usability concerns seem to be focused not on the fact that media item selection and editability are equivalent, but rather on how media items are selected in the track list. Items could instead be selected via a swipable column.
As you can see in this post, it is not only about how items are selected in the track list.

jnif

Last edited by jnif; 01-24-2013 at 03:28 PM.
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Old 01-24-2013, 04:07 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
Yes, selection based editability control is fast in media item lane because you can use marquee selection there.
But the actual result of this operation has nothing to do with actually selecting those items. It is only a way to control editability state and a way to display this state to user.

Or this is how it should be, I think. It should have nothing to do with actually selecting items. Currently it does not work like that. Currently selection defines also the set of items that will be moved in media item lane if you alt+drag items. This is quite confusing. For example if you have multiple items on single track and you like to edit them all at the same time. You make them all editable by selecting them all. Then you would like to move one item in the middle. It is not possible. You have to first unselect all the other items, then move the item, and then again select all the items.

And where will this all end if development continues on the current path and more features will be added? I think it will become even more complex. Users would like to do all kinds of operations (for example mute, change color, etc.) to selected items in media item lane because it is so fast. But then there would be always the problem that selection means also editable.

And this lead also to another question.
Why this fast marquee based control is limited only to editability control?
Why not allow also visibility control by drawing marquees over items in the media item lane?


As you can see in this post, it is not only about how items are selected in the track list.

jnif
I can see both sides. But I do think it makes a lot of sense that item selection is equivalent to editability. The types of operations that can be performed on the events of editable items fall almost perfectly into the category of "operations on groups of items". Moving or quantizing or otherwise batch-operating on events within the item selection is very similar to moving or stretching or changing the color of the item selection.

You mention that moving a selection of items would screw up your editability selection. But the same could be said if you wanted change the color of one selection of items, but lengthen another set. That is, the selection for the current operation has always destroyed the selection for the previous operation, and we've never seen a problem with it.

The question is whether operating on an event selection within the item selection is different enough from operating on selections of whole items that it warrants the extra complexity and state of a separate set, and I think schwa's right to feel that out for a while.

Last edited by medicine tactic; 01-24-2013 at 04:12 PM.
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Old 01-24-2013, 04:17 PM   #31
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Default Bug/iffy behaviour :)

Whilst trying to hit the edit button on the item selector I managed to move the start of multiple items and when I tried to undo it there wasn't an undo yet.

Perhaps this should also need us to hold down alt to move it as the edge is close to the item's buttons.
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Old 01-24-2013, 04:31 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by medicine tactic View Post
I can see both sides. But I do think it makes a lot of sense that item selection is equivalent to editability. The types of operations that can be performed on the events of editable items fall almost perfectly into the category of "operations on groups of items". Moving or quantizing or otherwise batch-operating on events within the item selection is very similar to moving or stretching or changing the color of the item selection.

You mention that moving a selection of items would screw up your editability selection. But the same could be said if you wanted change the color of one selection of items, but lengthen another set. That is, the selection for current operation has always destroyed the selection for the previous operation, and we've never seen a problem with it.

The question is whether operating on an event selection within the item selection is different enough from operating on selections of whole items that it warrants the extra complexity and state of a separate set.
Yes I understand, and I can also see both sides.
I agree, there is certain simplicity in the current solution.

But still I think there are so many possible problems that separate editability state should be considered seriously.

Here is one more example.
I think in the track-based workflow users will expect to kind of "lock" the editability always to complete track. This locking should happen automatically. In track-based workflow users don't want to select/unselect any individual items to make them editable/uneditable. They want to control editability of complete tracks only. And they might still like to do some edits, like move, to singe item within the editable track. This would be impossible in the current soultion. The user is forced to go out of the track-based workflow.

Sometimes adding a new state does not add complexity. Instead, it could make things more clear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
The main advantages are to be able to control editability from the arrange view, persistence (media items are either selected or not, it doesn't depend on whether the item appears in a midi editor or multiple editors), minimizing state, and simplicity.
Regarding being able to control editability from the arrange view.
It could be possible also with separate item editability state in MIDI editor.
Editability state could be changed automatically based on item selection in arrange view. And again, there is a question why only editability should be controlled from arrange view? Why visibility is not controlled from arrange view?
One solution could be that selection in the arrange view is linked to both visibility and editability in MIDI editor. That would be pretty simple to use.

The linking from arrange view selection to MIDI editor visibility and editability should be one-directional. Changing visibility and/or editability in MIDI editor would not change item selection in arrange view.
And arrange view selection could optionally be additive-only. I.e. you could only add more visible/editable items to MIDI editor by selecting items in arrange view. You could not disable visibility/editability of items by selecting a smaller subset of already selected items in the arrange view.

jnif

Last edited by jnif; 01-24-2013 at 04:53 PM.
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Old 01-24-2013, 04:47 PM   #33
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Ah, that's an excellent point re: track-based workflow. It would require separate item and editability selections.
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Old 01-24-2013, 05:04 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
In track-based workflow users don't want to select/unselect
any individual items to make them editable/uneditable.
They want to control editability of complete tracks only.
jnif
This is exactly how'd I like it to work, yes.

I'd rather have the Track List collapsed to display only Tracks.
I wish to hide Items on all Tracks because...


For me,
1 TCP =
1 MIDI Media Item =
1 musical instrument
(playing technique/articulation)

This allows me to draw new MIDI Events anywhere, on any Track,
because I already have the blank Media Item drawn into my
orchestral template.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
And they might still like to do some edits, like move,
to single item within the editable track. This would be impossible
in the current solution. The user is forced to go out of the
track-based workflow.
jnif
The best solution I can currently think of is this:

To enable Track-based Editing Mode:

- Select a Track from the Track List. That's it.

All Items inside the selected Track become Active &
edit-enabled/draw-enabled.
All Items inside the selected Track are treated as one whole.

Note:
In this mode, selecting an Item in the Track List is redundant,
since Track selection implies Item selection.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To enable Item-based Editing Mode:
- Select an Item from the Track List, but NOT the parent Track
for that Item. That's it.

Only selected Items for a Track in the Track List can be edited.
Unselected Items under a Track in the Track List can NOT be edited.


Note:
Only works as Item-based Editing Mode if the parent Track is NOT
selected in the Track List.

Note:
Selecting the parent Track for the Item(s)in the Track List will
over-ride Item-based Editing Mode & become Track-based Editing Mode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnif View Post
...One solution could be that selection in the arrange view is
linked to both visibility and editability in MIDI editor.
That would be pretty simple to use.
jnif
I really do not want to use the Arrange View at all when working with MIDI.
I just want to work from within the MIDI Editor,
using the Track List to select/edit/draw Tracks & Items.
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Please check out these MIDI requests: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=103192
Thanks.

Last edited by mikeroephonics; 01-24-2013 at 05:50 PM.
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Old 01-24-2013, 05:45 PM   #35
drakeblood
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Small display bug, you see the ending of midi notes, that touch the midi clip ending, at the begin of the unselected midi clip.

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Old 01-24-2013, 06:31 PM   #36
gpunk_w
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So what setting is it again that lets you open up multiple MIDI items at the same time ?
I had it set up but installing this has reset whatever it was that needs setting.

EDIT
NVM it had reset the projects beat thing again
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Last edited by gpunk_w; 01-24-2013 at 06:46 PM.
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Old 01-24-2013, 06:54 PM   #37
gpunk_w
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Cant stand the item selector but love the track selector
Can we get an option to select items via the track selector that doesnt show all other previous items
Example
If i have an item selected then select another item via the track selector it currently keeps the first in view too, but fainter (Secondary item) if i select another item via the track selector, the previous two then become fainter.

Would be much better if it where multi select consistent
Example
If i click to select an item in the arrange timeline, i then ctrl click to select multiple items in the arrange
So
If i click to select in the ME track selector it should select the last click and last click only, and make only that item visible/editable, it is way more intuitive to ctrl+click to select multiple items (Last clicked is editable, others are faint)

currently ctrl clicking seems to multi select but actually do nothing in terms of which is editable
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Old 01-24-2013, 07:09 PM   #38
medicine tactic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan View Post
annoyance: There is a MIDI editor flash everytime you select a different item. The whole editor refreshes resulting in a brief flash.
Yeah, I've been whining about this too. It seems low priority, but I think fixing it would disproportionately improve all of our experience testing and giving feedback on the new MIDI stuff.
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:52 PM   #39
gpunk_w
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Please dont change this track selector in the ME too much, i am actually finding it super useful, just give us a few options to change the font and colors please
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Old 01-25-2013, 01:23 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpunk_w View Post
Can we get an option to select items via the track selector that doesnt show all other previous items
Example
If i have an item selected then select another item via the track selector it currently keeps the first in view too, but fainter (Secondary item) if i select another item via the track selector, the previous two then become fainter.
Contents->Clear editor when changing active media item


Or just use Shift-click on the item in the track list.
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