Old 11-20-2013, 02:01 PM   #1
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Default ReaSamplOmatic Tests...

I hope it's okay if I start this thread here. Based on the new advances with ReaSamplOmatic (RSO), I thought it would be good to have a thread for testing and ironing out the bugs.

Also I'm really hoping that RSO will become capable of some major sample handling for the folks who don't have a decent sampler like Kontakt. The new developments for RSO are a huge step in that direction.

With that said, I'll post the first bug I've found:

When I loaded 24 samples numbered 01 to 24, it's putting the last sample first. In other words, the samples load 24, 01, 02 ,03, etc. on up to 23. It's also playing the 24th sample first with velocities 1 to 5.

For the most part the velocity spacing for each sample isn't too bad, however there are a few disparities which I will explain later.

To be continued.......

Velocity Graph.
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...&postcount=140

Round Robin Chart.
http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...&postcount=212
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Old 11-20-2013, 02:03 PM   #2
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Sounds like classic error in sorting of multiple selected files that was happening on XP, but was fixed in Vista/W7... not sure what to make of it.
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Old 11-20-2013, 03:02 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
Sounds like classic error in sorting of multiple selected files that was happening on XP, but was fixed in Vista/W7... not sure what to make of it.
I don't know ED, this is on my Win7 Reaper(64), the order is definitely messed up.

I also thought there was a disparity with the individual sample spacing but that's looking good. For the 24 samples it's basically 2 vel spacings of 5 and then one of 6.

When I get a chance, my next test will be with 36 samples.
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Old 11-20-2013, 04:23 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
I don't know ED, this is on my Win7 Reaper(64), the order is definitely messed up.

I also thought there was a disparity with the individual sample spacing but that's looking good. For the 24 samples it's basically 2 vel spacings of 5 and then one of 6.

When I get a chance, my next test will be with 36 samples.
Hmm, are there other subtle changes in the file or path names? It sorts them case-insensitively based on filename...

If you can post a minimal project or fxchain with the reasamplomatic in it, that'd be great. No need for the actual files.
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Old 11-20-2013, 05:25 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
Hmm, are there other subtle changes in the file or path names? It sorts them case-insensitively based on filename...

If you can post a minimal project or fxchain with the reasamplomatic in it, that'd be great. No need for the actual files.
They're all in one folder and are nameed 01, 02, 03, to 24.

I just posted the complete test project including samples. That way you can see how I'm conducting my tests. It's not that big.

https://db.tt/3ycb1LHA
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Old 11-20-2013, 07:13 PM   #6
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If i import multiple samples (say, 6 tiered samples of a kick drum), the plugin name in the windows title bar for reasamplomatic changes to the title of the 1st sample.

This name change is also reflected in the mcp inserts, ie the insert is named "kick_c1_36_crack" instead of "reasamplomatic".

Surely not intended?

win7x64/reaperx64
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Old 11-20-2013, 10:09 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
They're all in one folder and are nameed 01, 02, 03, to 24.

I just posted the complete test project including samples. That way you can see how I'm conducting my tests. It's not that big.

https://db.tt/3ycb1LHA
Hmm, thanks. How did you import the samples? Trying to figure out why they ended up this way... also what OS and reaper arch?

Edit: nevermind, actually, I see I forgot to put the sorting code on the drag & drop mode, oops. fixing.

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Old 11-20-2013, 10:20 PM   #8
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Quote:
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Hmm, thanks. How did you import the samples? Trying to figure out why they ended up this way... also what OS and reaper arch?
Hi Justin, I drug them in from a regular directory/folder.

My system is Win7 on an i5 with 8gig. I was using Reaper 4.58pre2a (64).

Heh heh, I'm not sure what you mean by "arch"?
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Old 11-20-2013, 10:23 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
Edit: nevermind, actually, I see I forgot to put the sorting code on the drag & drop mode, oops. fixing.
Aah, okay, thankyou, now I can proceed.
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Old 11-21-2013, 02:26 PM   #10
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After playing around with ReaSamplOmatic today, I've discovered the Release needs to be able to be set higher.

Right now I think it's 2000-ms, we really need at least 10K-ms. Kontakt's is 25K-ms I believe.

2000-ms is not long enough for Ride and Crash cymbals.

So please justin, can we get more Release?
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Old 11-21-2013, 05:19 PM   #11
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I tried working with some Hi-Hats to day and having trouble with the midi_choke.

Can anyone explain how this works?



I've got Open Hats on Bb1(46).

I've got Closed Hats Left/Right Hand on F#1(42) & G#1(44). My Foot Hat is on C2(48).

I want the Open Hat to choke when I play any of the other keys 42, 44, and 48.

Can that be done with this JS: midi_choke?
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Old 11-21-2013, 06:26 PM   #12
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Good question, Tod.

My answer: We need choke groups. In RSO.
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Old 11-21-2013, 06:35 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
After playing around with ReaSamplOmatic today, I've discovered the Release needs to be able to be set higher.

Right now I think it's 2000-ms, we really need at least 10K-ms. Kontakt's is 25K-ms I believe.

2000-ms is not long enough for Ride and Crash cymbals.

So please justin, can we get more Release?
Tod,

If you set the release to "0", attack to "0"
and set the mode to "Sample", it should
play the entire length of the sample.

If the ride cymbal is 10 seconds long, it should play the
entire length of the cymbal sample from start to finish.

Of course, be sure to set the MAX voices to 16.
(Edit: The MAX voice count can now be set manually to 128 voices).

I always disable the "obey notes off" feature for drums and cymbals.

About choke groups:
I have not tried to do that yet with a hi-hat in ReaSamplomatic.

Last edited by SMM; 11-27-2014 at 06:53 PM.
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Old 11-21-2013, 07:26 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by witti View Post
Good question, Tod.

My answer: We need choke groups. In RSO.
Yeah, thanks witti. I think choke groups would be good. In Kontakt we have whats called Voice Groups where all this happens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SMM View Post
If you set the release to "0", attack to "0"
and set the mode to "Sample", it should
play the entire length of the sample.

Of course, be sure to set the MAX voices to 16.
Aah thanks SMM, I didn't know that, that should take care of my problem with the Ride.

Quote:
I always disable the "obey notes off" feature, but, I do
not remember why I disable that feature.
I think Justin said it had to be on in order for the midi_choke to work.

Quote:
About choke groups:
I have not tried to do that yet with a hi-hat in ReaSamplomatic.
I was not aware that there are no choke groups in the plugin.
.... This will need addressed.
There aren't any yet, at least I don't think so, I think witti is suggesting them.
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Old 11-21-2013, 08:38 PM   #15
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Yeah, obey note-off should be on for something that will go through a midi_choke, but off for an unchoked drum part.
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Old 11-21-2013, 09:47 PM   #16
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Yep ... i can see that auto-renaming the instance is a good idea
Imagine manually renaming all these ...



I'm having a blast with this.
Thanks SMM for the tip on zeroing the ADSR ... this was killing me.


I keep expecting the "velocity minimum/maximum" values to dynamically change as i select different layers from the drop-down.
This would be ideal IMHO.

Related to this, it wouldn't be a further stretch to have "note start/end" to dynamically change with each drop down sample
It may then be feasible to map multi-sample/layer instruments such as pianos, basses, strings et al, within a single RS5K instance, without resorting to tabs.

All in all though, this is just off the charts
Great stuff.
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Old 11-21-2013, 10:43 PM   #17
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Tod,
The "obey note-off" feature can be used currently in ReaSamplomatic for a hi-hat like this:

You can manually edit the midi note "length" in the midi editor for an open hi-hat sample.
(programming the choke of the note manually).

You could use a keyboard to trigger the sample (while holding down the key for the
desired length of time when the MIDI track is recording), then, release the key
at the moment you want it to stop playing.

Last edited by SMM; 11-27-2014 at 07:04 PM.
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Old 11-22-2013, 11:01 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMM View Post
The question is, how many choke groups would we need ?
(maybe a maximum of nine groups, or, maybe just one group ?)

... And, using a selectable audio fade out length at the end
of a sample being choked would be great for extra flexibility.

Example:
You could select the duration of a fade (audio decay) from
the first note (sample) when the next sample is choking it.
This gives the flexibility of fading (or not fading) the first note
into the next one for a more realistic natural sound.

I feel that choke groups is an important feature that we need for hi-hats.
(There are other uses for this feature also).
All good points SMM, however I'm not sure how any of this can be done with Justin's preferred way of handling Midi Choke, which is with JS plugins.

I made a small manual for my up-coming sample give-a-way of Hi-Hat and Ride for Kontakt. Here's a short little bit about how the Voice Groups work in Kontakt.



This one is for the Ride cymbal. Notice the Voices is set to 3, and the Fade Time 1000. This is to diminish excessive ringing in the Ride.



Quote:
To Tod,
There is a "work around" (speaking of hi-hats):

The "obey note-off" feature can be used currently in ReaSamplomatic for a hi-hat like this:
(This method can be tedious and time consuming depending on the Hi-hat track being edited)
You can manually edit the midi note "length" in the midi editor for an open hi-hat sample.
(This would be like programming the choke of the note manually).

Example:
Edit the length of the open hi-hat sample so that it will end at the very moment the closed
hi-hat sample is starting.... (You could even fade it slightly into the start of the closed hi-hat if desired).

Until choke groups become an option in ReaSamplomatic,
this is a "work around" that I can think of for now.
That's a great idea SMM, and I think will work well. You can even adjust the fade-out on them. I'll check this out today.
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Old 11-22-2013, 11:24 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
All good points SMM, however I'm not sure how any of this can be done with Justin's preferred way of handling Midi Choke, which is with JS plugins.
I did not see a JS plugin listed as "MIDI CHOKE" that comes stock with REAPER 64 bit.

Last edited by SMM; 11-22-2013 at 11:38 AM.
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Old 11-22-2013, 11:28 AM   #20
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It's not in the official installer yet.
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Old 11-22-2013, 11:44 AM   #21
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Quote:
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It's not in the official installer yet.
Thank you for clarifying that.
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Old 11-22-2013, 12:23 PM   #22
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Gotta couple more questions.

First of all, is there any dedicated information regarding ReaSamplOmatic and how it works?

Can anyone explain how the Round Robin works? I've been playing around with it but can't get it to work. I notice if you set the Probability to 50 it will play the first RSO every other time but I can't get it to play the 2nd RSO at all.

Also, what does the "Remove played notes from FX chain MIDI stream" do?



Quote:
Originally Posted by SMM View Post
I did not see a JS plugin listed as "MIDI CHOKE" that comes stock with REAPER 64 bit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
It's not in the official installer yet.
Here's the post with the link to the Text file. You have to copy the text, remove the "txt" extension and then put it in the Effect/MIDI folder in your main Reaper folder. That's on a Portable install, otherwise I think in might be in your AppData.

http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...4&postcount=27
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Old 11-22-2013, 01:32 PM   #23
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Okay, I just setup my HiHats in RSO and it's working great.

I did find you can only load a Maximum of 32 samples. My HiHat Foot has 36 samples and only 32 of them loaded.

SMM's idea on the open hat works great, I think it's better than using a choke. Using the length of the note not only works good but you can also automate the Release which makes it even better.

I'll check out the Ride a little later if I have time.
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Old 11-22-2013, 02:44 PM   #24
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IX's MIDI_ChokingHazard works better than justin's MIDI_Choke.

Give it a try.


Manually editing each and every hihat midi note is not really feasible IMHO.
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Old 11-22-2013, 02:51 PM   #25
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Here's an mp3 of my VmHiHats programmed in ReaSamplOmatic.

I thought they turned out pretty good.

https://db.tt/RVc998JN
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Old 11-22-2013, 02:59 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeolian View Post
IX's MIDI_ChokingHazard works better than justin's MIDI_Choke.

Give it a try.
Thank Aeolian, I'll have to do that.


Quote:
Manually editing each and every hihat midi note is not really feasible IMHO.
Not sure what you mean here?

I'm just dragging in all the samples I've already got edited for Kontakt.

I'm just doing this with RSO for those folks that don't have Kontakt.

Are you aware Aeolian, of the latest ReaSamplOmatic in Reaper 4.58pre2?
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Old 11-22-2013, 04:43 PM   #27
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Now that we have 64 bit technology (lots of RAM to use),
There would be a benefit to raising the "max voices" limit to
a number higher than 16.

This would be good when triggering a long (15 second) ride cymbal repeatedly.

I have had to use several instances of ReaSamplomatic on the same track channel to achieve this.

Last edited by SMM; 07-12-2015 at 08:06 AM.
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Old 11-22-2013, 04:51 PM   #28
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The newest build supports up to 64 samples.

The probability/round-robin control can be used to control whether that instance will produce sound from any given note. If you set 50% probability and round-robin, it will ignore every other note. If you check the "filter played notes from stream", then you can have a following RS5k (or other sampler) which will play whenever that RS5k doesn't.

midi_choke is included in the latest pre3 installer. To use it, set the choked sample (say, open hihat) to obey note-off, and set the release time as you like. Then, put a midi_choke JS in front of it in the chain, specifying the correct notes involved (choke start/number of notes to include your other hihat hits and a dedicated choke note, affected note start/number of notes to only affect the open hihat note). Once this is done, you can send normal drum notes to trigger the open hihat, and the choke-actuator-note to silence the open hihat (which will send a note-off to the RS5k, causing the release time to be used, etc).

For example, here is my midi_choke setup:


52 is dedicated choke, 53-54 are hihat close/pedal hits, and 55 is hihat open hit.

Last edited by Justin; 11-22-2013 at 04:57 PM.
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Old 11-22-2013, 08:22 PM   #29
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Thank you Justin for the detailed explanation and example.
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Old 11-22-2013, 11:06 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
The newest build supports up to 64 samples.
Thanks Justin, heh heh, that's more than I think I'll ever need.

Quote:
The probability/round-robin control can be used to control whether that instance will produce sound from any given note. If you set 50% probability and round-robin, it will ignore every other note. If you check the "filter played notes from stream", then you can have a following RS5k (or other sampler) which will play whenever that RS5k doesn't.
I'm assuming when you say RS5k, you're referring to an instance of ReaSamplOmatic500.

Okay but if you have more than two RS5k on a track then RRs are not going to work, right?

For instance, lets say I have a track of ReaSamplOmatic with 4 instances of RS5k on it. Lets say I have 2 RS5ks, each with a Closed group of Hats that I want to play RR. However I also have one RS5k with Open Hat and another RS5k with Foot Hat.

Is it possible to get the 2 instances of Closed Hats play RR?
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Old 11-22-2013, 11:30 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
The newest build supports up to 64 samples.
This is GREAT !!! ..... Thank you.


On another topic:

Question about the new ReaSamplomatic:
I see the little window (to the right) that flashes the
current velocity layer as it's being played (very nice).

Is it possible to put a little window to the right of
the "max voices" to show how many voices are currently
in use at any given time ?

This would come in handy for ride cymbals that are
very long (Example: a ride cymbal that is 15 seconds or longer).

If I see that I'm getting close to hitting the maximum amount of voices in one
instance of RS5k, then, I will create a second instance of ReaSamplomatic (on the same track channel) and
move some of these long samples to the new instance to help balance the load.

I'm trying to keep it as "pure" as possible.
(no lowest level samples being cut off).

This would be an excellent tool to have.
I'm very interested in seeing how many voices
that I'm currently using in each instance.

Last edited by SMM; 07-12-2015 at 08:18 AM.
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Old 11-22-2013, 11:52 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
I'm assuming when you say RS5k, you're referring to an instance of ReaSamplOmatic500.

ReaSamplOmatic5000, k=kilo or 1000 (km, kg, kV, kohm).


This is looking like it will replace my use of ShortCircuit for multi-velocity sample triggering. Just need to get my head round how the round-robin thing works...


>
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Old 11-23-2013, 06:42 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
52 is dedicated choke, 53-54 are hihat close/pedal hits, and 55 is hihat open hit.
There is one thing with your chocking plugin, justin.

Compared to your setup, my drums are often (always ?) GM mapped.
42=hh close, 44=hh pedal, 46=hh open.

So setting your plugin to

choke note start:42
number of choke notes:3 (to include the pedal hh on 44)
affected note start:46
number of affected notes:1

leads to the problem that the note 43 (tom) also chokes the open hihat, because it's in the range.

Is there a way to solve that ? Can your JS be changed so that only note 42 and 44 choke the 46 note ?
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Old 11-23-2013, 09:28 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by witti View Post
There is one thing with your chocking plugin, justin.

Compared to your setup, my drums are often (always ?) GM mapped.
42=hh close, 44=hh pedal, 46=hh open.

So setting your plugin to

choke note start:42
number of choke notes:3 (to include the pedal hh on 44)
affected note start:46
number of affected notes:1

leads to the problem that the note 43 (tom) also chokes the open hihat, because it's in the range.

Is there a way to solve that ? Can your JS be changed so that only note 42 and 44 choke the 46 note ?

Ah, yes, it seems I should update the JS to allow for non-contiguous choke note values.
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Old 11-23-2013, 09:31 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Okay but if you have more than two RS5k on a track then RRs are not going to work, right?

For instance, lets say I have a track of ReaSamplOmatic with 4 instances of RS5k on it. Lets say I have 2 RS5ks, each with a Closed group of Hats that I want to play RR. However I also have one RS5k with Open Hat and another RS5k with Foot Hat.

Is it possible to get the 2 instances of Closed Hats play RR?
Yeah, it is possible completely -- if you have two instances of RS5k (yes, Reasamplomatic 5000) listening on the same note, and the first one is set to "50% probability" and "round-robin", and "filter played midi notes", then it will play every other note, and when it plays the note it will remove the MIDI from the stream that is sent to the next plug-in. So you can do any number of these pairs in a chain (each one will not affect a later pair on a different note value).

Here is an image, I just did to test, where it will round-robin between hihat pedal and hihat closed hits:


Last edited by Justin; 11-23-2013 at 09:45 AM.
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Old 11-23-2013, 09:40 AM   #36
Justin
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OK, here is an updated midi_choke:

http://www.1014.org/shiz/code/midi_choke

(replace the version in your AppData\Roaming\REAPER\Effects\MIDI directory with that)

Here is how I would suggest configuring it for your setup:

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Old 11-23-2013, 11:06 AM   #37
witti
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Muchas gracias !
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Old 11-23-2013, 11:07 AM   #38
SMM
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I have a development idea about choke groups
for ReaSamplomatic, but, I do not know if this
would be a good idea.

Would it be much simpler to add groupings
for each individual notes only ?

This could be done using a "value box" in each instance of
RS5k. The box contains a number that the user can
assign to that instance. The number would represent
a choke group.

The number values would be as follows:

0 = no choke group (default value).
1 = choke group ONE.
2 = choke group TWO.
3 = choke group THREE.
4 = choke group FOUR.

Any SINGLE note in a group, would choke any other note (or notes) contained
in that same group, BUT, ONLY if the "obey notes off" is selected in an
instance that contains a sample that you want choked (ex: open hi-hat).

I'm thinking about drums here only, so, this might not work
for other types of instruments (not sure).

Maybe this is a bad idea (not sure), so, I thought
that I would mention it here as an idea.

I'm trying to be helpful.... I think this would be a nice
simple way to set up choke groupings and keep it flexible,
BUT, I could be completely wrong.

I'm only thinking of drums and cymbal samples (or sampled bass guitar notes), so,
maybe there is something major that I'm overlooking when it comes to other types of uses.

Last edited by SMM; 12-08-2013 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 11-23-2013, 11:09 AM   #39
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^^^^


Yes, that would be MUCH better than using a separate JS, IMHO. It's the same way Kontakt's handling things when choking is concerned - you group groups into voice groups, as showcased by Tod above. This would be exactly it.

Last edited by EvilDragon; 11-23-2013 at 11:20 AM.
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Old 11-23-2013, 01:36 PM   #40
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I think the separate choke processing is more flexible, easier to understand, and preferable. If you want Kontakt, use Kontakt.
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