Old 01-27-2015, 03:10 PM   #81
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That's good to hear Michael.

In a sense, it is obvious - for many people, making music in an environment that is focussed on the manipulation of sound rather than symbols representing sound leads to far better music. The sound drives the symbols, rather than the symbols driving the sound, as in a notation editor.

From my perspective, having a full blown notation editor in Reaper would be nice, but not necessary, especially it takes resources away from audio development. But
music XML export from the visually quantized data that is already in the notation view would provide amazing bang for the buck in terms of programming investment. By providing a clean interface between the two we could "have the best of both worlds" - write music in an audio environment, then tidy up the notation in a symbolic environment.

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Old 01-27-2015, 03:15 PM   #82
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You are right that MusicXML really is the key. From reading this thread you'll notice too that Lazarus virtually promised us a converter from the Score Editor native format to MusicXML.
Awesome, I missed that :-)

Subtlety is not my strong point at the moment - I've spent the last 20 days writing arrangements night and day using the process described here, so wanted to add my advocacy to the discussion while the feelings were still strong.

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Old 01-27-2015, 03:55 PM   #83
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Awesome, I missed that :-)

Subtlety is not my strong point at the moment - I've spent the last 20 days writing arrangements night and day using the process described here, so wanted to add my advocacy to the discussion while the feelings were still strong.

Jennifer
Lazarus maybe promised, but as far as I know he does not have the knowledge to do this. So does Schwa unfortunately. Please do not expect this from Reaper notation. In the current system it is not doable and I do not have time to explain why again and again.
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Old 01-27-2015, 06:22 PM   #84
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Err, I didn't promise anything people... I said I was almost passed the point of no return. I haven't passed that point yet but the code does have a nice home in a private repo at Bitbucket. It's very comfortable and sends its love.
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Old 01-27-2015, 09:14 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by michael diemer View Post
... It does seem that a synthesis is coming. someone will successfully integrate notation and sequencers. ...
Jim Miller's Personal Composer had that around 1985. I used it on an IBM PC with two floppy drives (no hard drive), a Hercules monochrome graphics card, and the Roland MPU-401 interface. Brilliant program. It allowed me to work entirely in music notation, which could be submitted for copyright purposes.

My opinion is that nothing has equaled it in the past thirty years.
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Old 01-27-2015, 10:25 PM   #86
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Err, I didn't promise anything people... I said I was almost passed the point of no return. I haven't passed that point yet but the code does have a nice home in a private repo at Bitbucket. It's very comfortable and sends its love.
Ahh, but I did say you 'virtually' promised OK, so I was just trying to get a rise out of you.

I'm glad to know your little creation is safely incubating in Bitbucket.

I also wanted to amplify what endorka was saying, because it is just so right, and I remember her identifying a bug in schwas JS midi humanizer which was subsequently fixed. Ane I never got around to saying thanks.
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Old 01-27-2015, 11:47 PM   #87
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Please people stop misleading newcomers or reconvalestents to Reaper with promises that are not doable at the moment.
NOTATION EDITOR +XML will not be supported by Reaper any-time soon (as stated by the developers). Notation editor without XML is not a sure thing, but may happen in a very simple, not bugfree version in the first release.

If people start believing otherwise, then we will have many unsatisfied forumers here soon. No one wishes to deal with them.
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Old 01-28-2015, 01:07 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by endorka View Post
This is a very interesting thread.

It's a great workflow except for the part where I am importing the generated MIDI into Musescore. No matter how careful I am with quantization etc, it is always a mess. Loads of overlapping notes creating extra voices in monophonic instruments, not-quite-right triplet, and so on. This requires substantial cleaning/tidying. For recent arrangements I've done for an 11-piece swing band it takes approximately a whole day of work per song just to accomplish this import/export step.

If I could export the visually quantized notes from the Reaper notation editor in music XML format, that would be ideal. This way I know exactly what is going to be imported by the notation editor, and could tweak things in Reaper if they weren't quite correct.
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Interesting, this nearly the way I work. When writing arrangements for my band, I tried this way too first.
When I realized that it won´t work, I started working with 2 displays.
One is my midi-editor, the other one is musescore.
Then I create the notes by hand, way faster than anything else.

A simple example is the border of the right and left hand of the keyboard, always a total mess when importing midi.
This is more of a musescore issue, though.

BTW a floating left/right-hand-border could be a FR.

I never worked with xml, but I hope I don´t have to deal with it because REAPER will have a sufficient score-editor soon.
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Old 01-28-2015, 01:19 AM   #89
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From my perspective, having a full blown notation editor in Reaper would be nice, but not necessary, especially it takes resources away from audio development. Jennifer
And so does the integration of video. Different users, different needs. I would absolutely love the integration of a score editor, at least a basic one.
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But music XML export from the visually quantized data that is already in the notation view would provide amazing bang for the buck in terms of programming investment. By providing a clean interface between the two we could "have the best of both worlds" - write music in an audio environment, then tidy up the notation in a symbolic environment.

Jennifer
I´d like to have the score editor to have a tidy-up-tool just in a visual way.
Visual quantize if you will. Just tell the edtior to display staccato 16ths every 8th just as plain 8ths and so on....
And I like to hear the score being played while reading it, this is much better from within REAPER than musescore

I guess this is way better then dealing with another export format, then reimport it in some other software.
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Old 01-28-2015, 02:02 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by TheWhistler View Post

Interesting, this nearly the way I work. When writing arrangements for my band, I tried this way too first.
When I realized that it won´t work, I started working with 2 displays.
One is my midi-editor, the other one is musescore.
Then I create the notes by hand, way faster than anything else.
I ended up doing this for sections that were a total mess. For simpler parts the import was sometimes workable.

Quote:
A simple example is the border of the right and left hand of the keyboard, always a total mess when importing midi.
Indeed. I resolved this one by having two MIDI channels in Reaper, one for the left hand, one for the right. Both routed to the same piano VSTi. This is ok because I can only play one hand at a time anyway.

Quote:
This is more of a musescore issue, though.
The MIDI import could be better, that is for sure. But you go to war with the army you have :-)

Quote:
Different users, different needs. I would absolutely love the integration of a score editor, at least a basic one.
.....
I guess this is way better then dealing with another export format, then reimport it in some other software.
I think a basic editor is reasonable proposition, but getting into the more advanced yet really useful features of Musescore or Sibelius such as linked part preparation, magnetic notes, repeat bars, D.S, coda etc. and goodness knows what else could be a distraction from the core purpose of a DAW.

Frankly, if there was even a "read only" score view that could export the visually quantised data it would be a huge improvement. I could shift notes about in the piano roll until they lined up properly in the score view. Even if MIDI export from the visually quantised data (as opposed to "source" data) was possible, it would be a big improvement.

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Old 01-28-2015, 02:17 AM   #91
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I also wanted to amplify what endorka was saying, because it is just so right, and I remember her identifying a bug in schwas JS midi humanizer which was subsequently fixed. Ane I never got around to saying thanks.
Thank you. I remember that well, great job from the developers for fixing it so quickly too.

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Old 01-28-2015, 03:49 AM   #92
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Indeed. I resolved this one by having two MIDI channels in Reaper, one for the left hand, one for the right. Both routed to the same piano VSTi. This is ok because I can only play one hand at a time anyway.
Jennifer
I never thought of that - dumb me - will try it next time.
Have to see if this works. Lot´s of funky stuff, so more of percussion playing for the keyboarder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by endorka View Post
I think a basic editor is reasonable proposition, but getting into the more advanced yet really useful features of Musescore or Sibelius such as linked part preparation, magnetic notes, repeat bars, D.S, coda etc. and goodness knows what else could be a distraction from the core purpose of a DAW.

Frankly, if there was even a "read only" score view that could export the visually quantised data it would be a huge improvement. I could shift notes about in the piano roll until they lined up properly in the score view. Even if MIDI export from the visually quantised data (as opposed to "source" data) was possible, it would be a big improvement.
Let´s see with what the devs come along in 2015 - anything might be better than now.

Greetz
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Old 01-28-2015, 03:59 AM   #93
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Yes, Notation software and DAWs are different beasts.

Basic score view/edit with key and musicXML export/import is a reasonable vision for Reaper.

Problem areas are example:
- Tuplets (e.g defining if triplet 1/8 or 1/16 note)
- Played notes interpretation
- When editing needing of-grid notes for midi, on grid for score.
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Old 01-28-2015, 04:20 AM   #94
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Basic score view/edit with key and musicXML export/import is a reasonable vision for Reaper.

Fixed that for you . IMO export only is required. REAPER seriously will not be developed as any kind of Music Copyist solution ever that I can see... If you are going the other way, you just export the MIDI from MuseScore, it imports fine into REAPER the way things are now.

I did see that schwa is not putting it into REAPER currently, but that an interested 3rd party might be able to cobble together a simple MusicXML export standalone.
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Old 01-28-2015, 06:51 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by endorka View Post
The sound drives the symbols, rather than the symbols driving the sound, as in a notation editor.
This is why we should get rid of the piano roll. just export the midi to musescore when you wanna peek at whats going on.
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Old 01-28-2015, 07:09 AM   #96
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Please people stop misleading newcomers or reconvalestents to Reaper with promises that are not doable at the moment.
NOTATION EDITOR +XML will not be supported by Reaper any-time soon (as stated by the developers). Notation editor without XML is not a sure thing, but may happen in a very simple, not bugfree version in the first release.

If people start believing otherwise, then we will have many unsatisfied forumers here soon. No one wishes to deal with them.
Look, you've made your point... summed up in this post...
"The point is that such notation in a DAW is impossible at the moment, due to its mathematical algo systems.
So Sibelius yes, integrated notation in a DAW no!"

http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...&postcount=138
You are entitled to your beliefs but you should have a look at Cubase because the mass hypnotists at Steinberg HQ have been packaging a score editor with it for years and the original development team of Sibelius are even now working for Steinberg!
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Old 01-28-2015, 08:06 AM   #97
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This is why we should get rid of the piano roll. just export the midi to musescore when you wanna peek at whats going on.
The problem is that midi import in Musescore is not very good.
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Old 01-28-2015, 08:08 AM   #98
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Fixed that for you
Yeah, could agree here
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Old 01-28-2015, 09:29 AM   #99
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Notation editor without XML is not a sure thing, but may happen in a very simple, not bugfree version in the first release.
Technically speaking, there is already a Lua script for a score editor from previous pre-releases. Worst case scenario: Reaper 5 doesn't come with native score editor. However, given Lua support is pretty much a given at this point, users will still be able to use the Lua script for basic notation needs.
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Old 01-28-2015, 09:53 AM   #100
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Old 01-28-2015, 10:07 AM   #101
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Impressions from someone who neither reads or writes the language of music.

It seems to me that any notation function in Reaper would be intended to be somewhat useful while also not literally being the same as the best notation applications out there. In proper context, I think some are looking for way too much from it and those who need truly high level professional scoring will likely never be happy with most any scoring function built into most daws. Cubase might be an exception there because they've had a decade or two to flesh it out.

Schwa kinda said what it's meant for, which is not to replace Sibelius. If you need Sibelius and all it offers, I doubt if Reaper's scoring will ever really do it for you.
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Old 01-28-2015, 10:16 AM   #102
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It's hard to tell with urednik sometimes
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Old 01-28-2015, 10:52 AM   #103
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It's hard to tell with urednik sometimes
Was for G-Sun
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Old 01-28-2015, 11:59 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
Impressions from someone who neither reads or writes the language of music.

It seems to me that any notation function in Reaper would be intended to be somewhat useful while also not literally being the same as the best notation applications out there. In proper context, I think some are looking for way too much from it and those who need truly high level professional scoring will likely never be happy with most any scoring function built into most daws. Cubase might be an exception there because they've had a decade or two to flesh it out.

Schwa kinda said what it's meant for, which is not to replace Sibelius. If you need Sibelius and all it offers, I doubt if Reaper's scoring will ever really do it for you.
Like said before, lot´s of users compose for bands or smaller orchestras.
Getting some leadsheet done would be perfect for those people.
Challanging enough to realize in REAPER i guess....and perhaps printing it in a good, readable way...
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Old 01-28-2015, 12:15 PM   #105
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I resolved this one by having two MIDI channels in Reaper, one for the left hand, one for the right. Both routed to the same piano VSTi.
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I never thought of that - dumb me - will try it next time.
Posted in a hurry this morning - what I meant to say was two MIDI tracks in Reaper, not channels. Both tracks are sending to the same MIDI channel in the piano VSTi.

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Old 01-28-2015, 01:09 PM   #106
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Was for G-Sun
Ok, I'm not the smartest guy. didn't understand..
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Old 01-28-2015, 01:17 PM   #107
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Posted in a hurry this morning - what I meant to say was two MIDI tracks in Reaper, not channels. Both tracks are sending to the same MIDI channel in the piano VSTi.

Jennifer
That´s right, of course. Two channels doesn´t make any sense.
But I understood what you mean right away...
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Old 01-28-2015, 01:38 PM   #108
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Ok, I'm not the smartest guy. didn't understand..
no offence intended sometimes it's hard to read humor on the internet. especially when it's so dry like mine.
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Old 01-28-2015, 02:15 PM   #109
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xml import as well as export is the only reasonable way. Do not get it why you want it to be limited???

Huh - I guess it is a lounge thread after all. G.Sun, you also do not seem to understand the complexity of notation in a full use. Others as I see even do not understand basics here.

I made my points and I am going to repeat it again: MIDI is like a "NOTEPAD" for notation, whether XML is like a full "Word editor". Even more - MIDI has not the ability to contain "THE WHOLE UTF CHARSET" - hence it is useless for anything above Mary had a little lamb.

Now you can dream on - surely, but please do not mislead people with disinformation.
There will be no XML support in Reaper, as Schwa said and this means it will not be able to work properly.
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Old 01-28-2015, 02:35 PM   #110
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There will be no XML support in Reaper, as Schwa said and this means it will not be able to work properly.
Will not be able to work properly as a full Notation Editor, of course.
As he said, this tool in REAPER will be more one way of to compose, not a way to print sophisticated scores.
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Old 01-28-2015, 03:19 PM   #111
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Will not be able to work properly as a full Notation Editor, of course.
As he said, this tool in REAPER will be more one way of to compose, not a way to print sophisticated scores.
Wrong. This means it will not be working properly as well. Except of easy single voice tunes. Schwa said he will be able to repair those bugs, but this is not doable. Notation editor is not a clearly mathematically clean algo.
This means: if Schwa can get rid of all those bugs, then we will already have a fully working notation editor. But this is unlikely to happen, since a lot of MIDI behaviour would be needed to be rewritten.
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Old 01-28-2015, 03:35 PM   #112
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But my friend, it is a new implementation, in a beta stage of the first beta version. I believe the Notation Editor can achieve a reasonable level of sophistication and functionality, not being a true editor of scores but having all the tools to be considered a useful tool.
I personally not need a Notation Editor in REAPER as an input device nor as a Score Editor. I mainly do arrangements for new songs using MIDI tracks and I record other tracks as audio. If I need a score for one or more parts of the arrangement, I export the tracks as MIDI and open an advanced music editor, no problem.
But I know there are others who would like to trigger virtual instruments using a simple sheet music editor, either because they do not play keyboard or because they dislike the other data entry tools.
Justin, Schwa and others involved in the development of REAPER certainly they will find a middle ground between the sophistication and usefulness and give us a decent Notation Editor.
Greetings.
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Old 01-28-2015, 03:43 PM   #113
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I made my points and I am going to repeat it again: MIDI is like a "NOTEPAD" for notation, whether XML is like a full "Word editor". Even more - MIDI has not the ability to contain "THE WHOLE UTF CHARSET" - hence it is useless for anything above Mary had a little lamb.
Thank you for the clarification. I may have been too vague in my communication of feature requests, so will try to explain my logic.

- MIDI does not contain the data such as note length (quaver, crotchet, etc) and placement in the bar in terms of musical notation.

- So when imported into a notation editor such as Musescore, the editor has to interpret this and place notes on the stave, and some of them do this incorrectly.

- However, this notation information will have already been established in the notation view of Reaper by means of "visual quantisation".

- So at this point, is it possible to take the note information not from MIDI, but from the notation editor "visual quantisation", and export this in XML format?

- I realise that this would limit the exported XML to notation only supported by the Reaper notation editor. That is fine, as it would provide a clean and already verified notation import into something like Musescore, far better than doing a MIDI import.

My key point is that the input to the XML generator is not from MIDI, but from the visually quantised data in the Reaper notation editor.

Even if all we got was "Mary Had A Little Lamb", but in the correct time with correct note lengths, it would be better than the current situation :-)

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Old 01-28-2015, 03:47 PM   #114
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xml import as well as export is the only reasonable way. Do not get it why you want it to be limited???

Huh - I guess it is a lounge thread after all. G.Sun, you also do not seem to understand the complexity of notation in a full use. Others as I see even do not understand basics here.

I made my points and I am going to repeat it again: MIDI is like a "NOTEPAD" for notation, whether XML is like a full "Word editor". Even more - MIDI has not the ability to contain "THE WHOLE UTF CHARSET" - hence it is useless for anything above Mary had a little lamb.

Now you can dream on - surely, but please do not mislead people with disinformation.
There will be no XML support in Reaper, as Schwa said and this means it will not be able to work properly.
Okay, you've been enough of a condescending twat to everyone else so let's get a couple of things straight. You have made a unique categorical statement, so let's prove it categorically wrong...

- You CAN store any and all UTF characters in MIDI data. The whole caboodle. If you wanted to... a 7 vs 8 bit (*x) difference is a simple hurdle so the key that you seem to be entirely missing is encoding. Which is strange since UTF itself is a form of encoding.

- If encoding data is possible (which it is,) it is also possible to ENCODE every single aspect of XML compatible notation data as MIDI meta-data.

- Bear in mind that encoding can also mean indirect encoding using pointers to data stored elsewhere.

I've been reading music since I was around 7 years old so maybe you are an adult learner who finds these things complicated?
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Old 01-28-2015, 04:34 PM   #115
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... is it possible to take the note information not from MIDI, but from the notation editor "visual quantisation", and export this in XML format?

- I realise that this would limit the exported XML to notation only supported by the Reaper notation editor. That is fine, as it would provide a clean and already verified notation import into something like Musescore, far better than doing a MIDI import.

My key point is that the input to the XML generator is not from MIDI, but from the visually quantised data in the Reaper notation editor.
Yes, this is indeed possible. It doesn't actually matter whether any display quantization is stored or not since the code is viewable and so the relevant bits could be duplicated to get exactly the same results. Assuming there will be display quantization...

But I'd say that display quantization and something close to a voicing system would be essential for the editor.
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Old 01-28-2015, 07:00 PM   #116
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I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I thought that MusicXML would be part of REAPER.

Obviously no-one has said that, but what seems possible, and would be nice would be a utility to convert the Lua script (presumably a data chunk in your .RPP) to MusicXML. Because MuseScore does import MusicXML very well, then you will at least get notes on the correct staves with the correct clefs and possibly beaming, tuplets etc as they appeared in your REAPER notation editor, without the hours of editing that needs to be done when importing MIDI. (And editing an imported file in MuseScore is just hideous in my experience with versions 1.1-1.2)

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Old 01-28-2015, 08:52 PM   #117
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xml import as well as export is the only reasonable way. Do not get it why you want it to be limited???
But because the REAPER devs aren't doing MusicXML, then that is up to the individual or group developing the Lua data => MusicXML converter, right?

If that person agres with me, then until REAPER overtakes some possible future version of Cubase that has all the functions of both DAW and music copyist software there is not much point of importing the page layout into REAPER.

If you have a sequence started in MuseScore, you put it into REAPER to create properly rendered instruments. Layout is not important. HTH.
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Old 01-28-2015, 09:09 PM   #118
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But because the REAPER devs aren't doing MusicXML, then that is up to the individual or group developing the Lua data => MusicXML converter, right?

If that person agres with me, then until REAPER overtakes some possible future version of Cubase that has all the functions of both DAW and music copyist software there is not much point of importing the page layout into REAPER.

If you have a sequence started in MuseScore, you put it into REAPER to create properly rendered instruments. Layout is not important. HTH.
Lua is not a kind of data it's a programming language, and also I don't think that the notation view will be coded in Lua (it might).

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Old 01-29-2015, 12:24 AM   #119
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Lua is not a kind data it's a programming language, and also I don't think that the notation view will be coded in Lua (it might).
OK, thanks. I'll stay tuned.
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Old 01-29-2015, 01:48 AM   #120
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Just my view on the notation subject...

As a long time Cubase user, I remember having used (and still do...) the score feature only for piano training purpose and never tried to print the results in any way. Actually, I was putting notes in the staves according to scores made by others : a quite basic way of using the score feature, I admit. Then I was practicing the piece on another track until I got more or less the same result and the same visual score as the original.

The nice and essential thing in the Cubase notation solution is its bidirectional way of working : change a note position in the notation and the notes move accordingly in the arrange/MIDI editor and reversely. This with a very useful parameter called 'Display quantize' that allows you to tell to which extent the score displayed is accurate, regarding the MIDI data processed. Add to this a rather complete set of options.

All this without the need to use a clumsy setup, using a second application which requires constant imports/exports or eventually Rewire, if there is such a working solution as this one. This is indeed lacking in Reaper. So, if the LUA based notation project allow the bidirectional work and a basic 'Display quantize' function, I would already be very glad, no matter if there is MusicXML involved or not, and even if the set of options offered is not as complete as Cubase one at first.
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