Old 01-13-2015, 08:08 PM   #41
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Its Reaper, everything is optional.

Airon where you making my point for me ?
The whole point to what i said was that we use different DAWs because they are different, not because they all work the same lol
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Old 01-13-2015, 08:09 PM   #42
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And i wasn't trying to say Kenny go away either, nip that one in the bud right now.
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Old 01-13-2015, 08:14 PM   #43
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I dont mind the slave faders moving as long as it indicates somehow its not 'true' seems better than the other way around.

Anyway, Question to vca veterans:

What tends to happen with metering?

Playing around earlier I'd set up a little vca on some tracks and envisioned in a big mix particularly as it comes to an end point hiding the slaves leaving key elements on a few faders etc etc.

What would be missing from this scenario IMO is some metering of the slaves on the vca masters. Not always wanted depending on scenario but useful.
Personally i would suggest a layout change rather than hiding the slaves, the layout would be meters only, wouldnt this do what you wanted ?
Obviously the layouts could be made any size to save space and so on.
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Old 01-13-2015, 08:16 PM   #44
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Off without the faders reflecting the VCAs is pretty useless to me.

Thanks
Looks like the initial decision was made to control the levels pre fader, not the fader. It gives the same audible result obviously but i wonder if they're even considering changing that. No idea.

That may be partly why ghost faders came up, not sure, but in Samp if the actual faders move they'd always be at the same position as the ghost faders, so I would think they don't move, but I haven't used it so dunno.
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Old 01-13-2015, 08:19 PM   #45
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Gp' I suppose slaves made to 'tiny meter tracks' could work, but think I saw on some vid the slaves 'total peak' (not sum) values on the master giving a good indicator of the (dare I say) group.

Kind of like the waveform view in folder tracks. Its not true but handy all the same.

Edit:It was cubase 8
http://youtu.be/ymi-DxCPPIE

1st thing to notice: option to 'add vca fader for selected tracks' (1:30 in)
2nd : metering of the slaves on vca tracks.
3: slave faders move.

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Old 01-13-2015, 08:44 PM   #46
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Gp' I suppose slaves made to 'tiny meter tracks' could work, but think I saw on some vid the slaves 'total peak' (not sum) values on the master giving a good indicator of the (dare I say) group.
Aaaaah got ya, can it already be done haha ?, tracks you want to slave foldered, master parents switched, use the folder fader as the master haha
The meter on the folder would be the sum i guess, not peaks, and notice here im on my phone so not checked if it even works lol
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Old 01-13-2015, 08:46 PM   #47
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Everyone seems to be focusing on faders but we can also "trim" pan and mute so ghost caps solve only one portion of the visual aid needed. How to approach these two parameters?
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Old 01-13-2015, 08:48 PM   #48
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Maybe
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Originally Posted by gpunk_w View Post
Aaaaah got ya, can it already be done haha ?, tracks you want to slave foldered, master parents switched, use the folder fader as the master haha
The meter on the folder would be the sum i guess, not peaks, and notice here im on my phone so not checked if it even works lol
Foldering not really when I tried, but sending slaves to a new track or the vca master if its empty and unticking master/parent does work.
but then then i see the cubase vid, and you get Meters out of the box.

Mercado: seems some hosts don't even try to ghost and just act as if its a direct control. Guess it depends how key it is to user to know the reality at point of use.

Dancing Shadows on the cave and all that.

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Old 01-13-2015, 08:54 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro View Post
Everyone seems to be focusing on faders but we can also "trim" pan and mute so ghost caps solve only one portion of the visual aid needed. How to approach these two parameters?
Would it be worthwhile for the real faders/buttons to simply go slightly transparent (or other well thought out visual modification) to imply their VCA status along with some simple key press or modifier that switches to the non-VCA status?
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Old 01-13-2015, 08:59 PM   #50
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Would it be worthwhile for the real faders/buttons to simply go slightly transparent (or other well thought out visual modification) to imply their VCA status along with some simple key press or modifier that switches to the non-VCA status?
They already have the grouping Ribbon
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Old 01-13-2015, 09:00 PM   #51
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BenK this is Reaper, you dont get stuff out the box, you have to think out the box haha
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Old 01-13-2015, 09:13 PM   #52
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Mercado: seems some hosts don't even try to ghost and just act as if its a direct control. Guess it depends how key it is to user to know the reality at point of use.

Dancing Shadows on the cave and all that.
I just watched that video of Cubase 8 and now I can visualize something good to work with. I think that Kenny already pointed that out: move the actual faders instead of having ghost caps. That makes sense to me now. In fact, if Cockos would've "improved" (just to call it somehow) the actual grouping parameters to include automation I think we wouldn't even been having this debate over ghost caps because it would feel just right from the start (but I'm only realizing this after watching this Cubase 8 video, thanks for posting that).

Having automation to reflect changes made by VCA Masters is also very good and I support that idea as well. It would help tremendously here (I'm an automation freak lol).

Anyways, I'm inclined for having actual volume faders, pan knobs and mute buttons to move/change accordingly. I think it can't get any better than that (but "better" is really subjective).

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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
Would it be worthwhile for the real faders/buttons to simply go slightly transparent (or other well thought out visual modification) to imply their VCA status along with some simple key press or modifier that switches to the non-VCA status?
But don't we have ribbons and lines on edge already? Transparency is sometimes a bad thing for people working from a distance (not my case but I've seen this in others studios I've worked with).

[EDIT] GP beat me to it lol
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Old 01-13-2015, 09:21 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro View Post

But don't we have ribbons and lines on edge already? Transparency is sometimes a bad thing for people working from a distance (not my case but I've seen this in others studios I've worked with).

[EDIT] GP beat me to it lol
I think I missed the meaning of ghost caps then.
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Old 01-13-2015, 09:25 PM   #54
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I think I missed the meaning of ghost caps then.
Yeah, that's another reason why I wasn't so sure about these ghost faders. They sure look great but in practice, after a second thought, having the actual faders/knobs/buttons to react seems more appropriate to me.
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Old 01-13-2015, 09:28 PM   #55
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Indeed cubase are hiding the truth from the cave dwellers a bit (continuing My 'alagory of the cave' 'theme' )

But point is does it matter?

Faders move, meters dance, people get on with mixing.


A 'switch' to show the truth of the situation for those that want to seems fair. seeing the feature from the finished end rather than as an almost, does give an idea of how it would get used day to day and what is or isn't convenient.
What we see in cubase8 vid isn't exactly cunning just simple implementation, devs are clever chaps so guess we'll see.. Then moan
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Old 01-13-2015, 09:35 PM   #56
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It caught me a little off guard as well when i grabbed the first pre and made a VCA group with some empty tracks and the slave faders didn't move.

I thought... "Ok, I'll have to import some audio clips and play something through those tracks to see this working I suppose."
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Old 01-13-2015, 09:35 PM   #57
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Yeah, that's another reason why I wasn't so sure about these ghost faders. They sure look great but in practice, after a second thought, having the actual faders/knobs/buttons to react seems more appropriate to me.
I looked at post 8, they are what I thought they were. I'd consider keeping the ghosts for the faders and could probably think of several ways to handle the others (mute etc) but would likely complicate or break theming which I think someone already discussed. Sorry, haven't had a chance to read it all yet.

So back to my earlier thing, I was attempting to say that instead of having both visible at once, you toggle easily between actual/ghost visibility with a modifier or button. I'm sure I could find things wrong with it. I don't think it is too hard a problem to solve though.
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Old 01-13-2015, 09:51 PM   #58
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I looked at post 8, they are what I thought they were. I'd consider keeping the ghosts for the faders and could probably think of several ways to handle the others (mute etc) but would likely complicate or break theming which I think someone already discussed. Sorry, haven't had a chance to read it all yet.

So back to my earlier thing, I was attempting to say that instead of having both visible at once, you toggle easily between actual/ghost visibility with a modifier or button. I'm sure I could find things wrong with it. I don't think it is too hard a problem to solve though.
Yeah but the question is: Why would you need a ghost and real cap at the same time when what you really need to know is where the current "level" is at?
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Old 01-13-2015, 09:55 PM   #59
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Yeah but the question is: Why would you need a ghost and real cap at the same time when what you really need to know is where the current "level" is at?
Because you also want to know why it is at that level but if the ribbon essentially says "this fader is where it is at and only where it is at because it is VCA'd" fine by me but seems like there is value in knowing what both are set to. If I suddenly disabled the VCA which was set low and the real fader was at +max I'd be upset at the result wouldn't I? Probably missing something again, sorry
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Old 01-13-2015, 10:08 PM   #60
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+1 to moving VCAs to the routing page

If I have a VCA master setup and I want to add a track to the group controlled by it it would be great to simply open the routing window and add a (VCA receive) - and also to see a quick list of all the tracks that are controlled just as we do now with routing.

This is much better and quicker than scanning through a matrix looking to see which tracks are included.

It would also remove the arbitrary limitation of the number of VCA groups - the display of multiple groups in the router is kludgy and huge - not elegant.

A single matrix could show all groups by dropping colored circles in the cells - the circles could be divided to show tracks belonging to multiple via groups - also almost impossible to see in the group matrix.
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Old 01-13-2015, 10:16 PM   #61
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They already have the grouping Ribbon
See I think first implementation of VCA relationships might best be done using existing Group indicators like ribbons.

We already know what they mean, and to me, VCA is another way of 'grouping'.

I also like the idea someone posted earlier about removing most of the visual buttons and whatnot once a track is designated as a VCA since that stuff won't be applicable (record, etc, etc)
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Old 01-13-2015, 10:39 PM   #62
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Because you also want to know why it is at that level but if the ribbon essentially says "this fader is where it is at and only where it is at because it is VCA'd" fine by me but seems like there is value in knowing what both are set to. If I suddenly disabled the VCA which was set low and the real fader was at +max I'd be upset at the result wouldn't I? Probably missing something again, sorry
That's the point. If you disable or remove a track from a VCA group faders/knobs/buttons will stay there where they are. They won't (shouldn't) go back to where they started.
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Old 01-14-2015, 03:40 AM   #63
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Old 01-14-2015, 04:25 AM   #64
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Sashaserkov. You don't route audio through VCAs.

VCAs control level, it's a control signal.



>
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Old 01-14-2015, 04:51 AM   #65
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Sashaserkov. You don't route audio through VCAs.

VCAs control level, it's a control signal.



>
Actually, the whole point of a VCA is to route audio through it and then control the level of that audio with a control voltage, hence: Voltage Controlled Amplifier. Basically, the amplifier gain (usually 0 through to unity) is controlled by a voltage.

But I agree that Sashaserkov's idea wouldn't be the correct place to patch the VCA.
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Old 01-14-2015, 05:18 AM   #66
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That's the point. If you disable or remove a track from a VCA group faders/knobs/buttons will stay there where they are. They won't (shouldn't) go back to where they started.
Ok, got it, thanks.
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Old 01-14-2015, 05:40 AM   #67
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That's the point. If you disable or remove a track from a VCA group faders/knobs/buttons will stay there where they are. They won't (shouldn't) go back to where they started.
Hmmm. I'm not sure that's actually the case.

If a VCA master is automated (or maybe just not at unity and not automated) and you remove the child, the master automation or offset (optionally, you should get an option alert in that case) no longer applies to the VCA child so (like Kenny and I said eariler) that fader either has to move back to where it was (where it would be without the VCA master's offset) or coalecse that offset into it's own automation lane and/or into it's own existing automation and stay where it currently is.

So what you're looking at on the slave fader level is not it's own level, you're actually looking at it's level +/- the VCA master offset.

In this case the fader currently doesn't physically move to reflect those offsets... but you'd still need to account for that at whatever gain stage those offsets are happening at whether the fader is physically moving or not.

In that regard (and I'm not supporting or making a case for ghost faders by saying this) with GF's you can literally see both things at once, where the offset level is and where the fader would be if you remove the VCA Master's influence.
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Old 01-14-2015, 06:57 AM   #68
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I like this, but I'm a TCP-centric user and would also like a simple indication of VCAs. A little color coded dot/square somewhere on the TCP would suffice...
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Old 01-14-2015, 08:39 AM   #69
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Hmmm. I'm not sure that's actually the case.

If a VCA master is automated (or maybe just not at unity and not automated) and you remove the child, the master automation or offset (optionally, you should get an option alert in that case) no longer applies to the VCA child so (like Kenny and I said eariler) that fader either has to move back to where it was (where it would be without the VCA master's offset) or coalecse that offset into it's own automation lane and/or into it's own existing automation and stay where it currently is.

So what you're looking at on the slave fader level is not it's own level, you're actually looking at it's level +/- the VCA master offset.

In this case the fader currently doesn't physically move to reflect those offsets... but you'd still need to account for that at whatever gain stage those offsets are happening at whether the fader is physically moving or not.

In that regard (and I'm not supporting or making a case for ghost faders by saying this) with GF's you can literally see both things at once, where the offset level is and where the fader would be if you remove the VCA Master's influence.
I'd vote for coalescing (and a warnning, of course). Removing a slave is probably going to happen latter in the mix so any changes you've made should stay.
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Old 01-14-2015, 08:53 AM   #70
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I'd vote for coalescing (and a warnning, of course). Removing a slave is probably going to happen latter in the mix so any changes you've made should stay.
Yep, I would think that would be the case way more often than not and even if it defaults to coalescing with no warning or no Yes/No question dialog it can't do any real harm doing that like it might do if it doesn't coalese.

Like you suggest, the worst case there, even if you didn't necessarily even want that for some other reason, would be everything in the mix remaining exactly the same mix balance wise. The worst case in the other case is the relative mix balances getting screwed up.
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Old 01-14-2015, 09:12 AM   #71
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Now that I've had more time to play with VCAs I'm even more convinced by Gpunk's suggestion that VCA sends and receives are treated as another form of Aux bus.

And for mixer users there could be a ghost cap (which would be configurable to show any of the VCA channels driving it or the sum of all of them.
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Old 01-14-2015, 10:31 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by BenK-msx View Post
I dont mind the slave faders moving as long as it indicates somehow its not 'true' seems better than the other way around.
Not sure what you mean here.

Quote:
Anyway, Question to vca veterans:

What tends to happen with metering?
I use pre-fader metering so it's not a factor for me.

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And i wasn't trying to say Kenny go away either, nip that one in the bud right now.
Don't worry. That's not where I thought you were going.
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Old 01-14-2015, 10:35 AM   #73
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I just tried VCAs out, really cool, solves the problem of reverb sends not following bus track volume changes. w00t! Hopefully there will be an easy minimal-click way of creating a new VCA track for selected tracks.
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Old 01-14-2015, 10:36 AM   #74
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Metering is usually dependent upon pre/post fader. In post-fader mode, the meter shows the output of the channel, which is the result of the actual fader position plus whatever VCA control is applied.

Having the faders themselves move, not a ghost, would be fine too. But what I like about a separate VCA indicator...a ghost, bar, etc...is that it's easy to keep a reference of the original gain/fader position.
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Old 01-14-2015, 10:39 AM   #75
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What tends to happen with metering?
A potentially interesting thing happened that some might have missed. I kinda made a suggestion that, with hindsight, was maybe asking too much, asking for the VCA Master in Reaper which is literally otherwise just another universal track, to reflect metering from the slaves.

After I thought about it a little more I erased it because it seemed... maybe a bit of a reach... in the context of all the other stuff that needs doing.

But ... Justin commented later about liking some of the ideas in general (all the stuff we all were talking about at the time) and directly mentioned metering. I kinda took that to mean that he might be pushing child metering to the VCA Master... since that meter isn't doing anything else anyway. That might be kinda cool, to be able to hide the VCA slaves but still see activity from them on the VCA Master's meter... especially since Reaper's meters can go multi-channel.
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Old 01-14-2015, 10:59 AM   #76
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That's the point. If you disable or remove a track from a VCA group faders/knobs/buttons will stay there where they are. They won't (shouldn't) go back to where they started.
This should definitely be an option. Not a preference.

IOW - When you delete a VCA track, Reaper should say "This track was controlling the level etc of other tracks still in the project. Do you want to coalesce this data to the individual track(s)"

And this is the reason why you want the fader to move at times. Ghost or not. So that you can always see what's happening on the individual track.
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Old 01-14-2015, 11:09 AM   #77
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Having the faders themselves move, not a ghost, would be fine too. But what I like about a separate VCA indicator...a ghost, bar, etc...is that it's easy to keep a reference of the original gain/fader position.
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with this option but what confuses me (and it's my biggest problem with Reaper's automation structure) is that you guys seem hell bent on seeing everything that's going on. And that's fine. But why is it OK to NOT see what's going on with Trim automation while in Read mode or what's going on with Read automation (your volume envelope) while you're in Trim mode?

How is that acceptable to leave out such an important part of mixing but suddenly it's a problem in VCAs?

Where are the cries for Ghost Caps in those instances?
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Old 01-14-2015, 11:30 AM   #78
BlackBart
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Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post

Where are the cries for Ghost Caps in those instances?
Funny! I agree. Reaper's trim mode drives me nuts, always has.
Brings up a good point. Reaper's VCA implementation could add another level of user-unfriendliness. Hope not.
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Old 01-14-2015, 11:40 AM   #79
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It's probably at least partly true that some (not all of course ) of the ask for Ghost Caps is because it just looks really, really cool in Samp.

If we're being completely honest we probably should acknowledge a wee bit of that.

Having said that and now learning that they are in Samp and not just Sequoia, I should probably download it and at least try them before I support them. My DSL is so (relatively) slow I very often don't bother with 600mb things I didn't actually buy but I might as well give it an up close look.

I just hate waiting an hour to download anything that big in the daytime. I usually do that before I go to bed so I don't think about it so much.

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Last edited by Lawrence; 01-14-2015 at 11:47 AM.
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Old 01-14-2015, 11:45 AM   #80
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Having the faders themselves move, not a ghost, would be fine too. But what I like about a separate VCA indicator...a ghost, bar, etc...is that it's easy to keep a reference of the original gain/fader position.
I think that's a very good point.
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