Old 12-09-2010, 03:56 PM   #81
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The project bin itself can be nuked for all I care. Other bins would simply be available to be shown/opened or not. Those are the persistent ones. The project bin is about informing the user about what's being used, has been used and may still be used, if the user has tossed material from elsewhere in to the bin. Other bins don't change unless the user specifically adds files to them or removes references from them. The project bin might be configured to reflect only the project state, though the default will probably need to be that the user has to clean it up.

But persistence from project to project ? No. I would say that users who wish to take the material to another project could simply IMPORT that bin from another project if they like, but then those references are copied. The original bin is not referenced.

As for items in the bin, that's a very good thing to have, as are sequences of items(midi or audio). A preview area is incredibly useful for editing the start/end of an item before using it in the project. This is how video editing works at its most basic level. The same used to go for AudioVision, a legendary DAW that had bins, a clip editor(preview with selection capability) and sequences. But Digidesign canned it. We never got those features back. And now here we are.
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Old 12-09-2010, 04:02 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
I imagine you would want the media items to optionally persist in the bay even after being removed from the project? Because that is significantly more state to manage, compared to references to media on disk.
Yes, the media items in the bay should stay there even if deleted from the project. (Snippets of material ready to be used later etc...) I understand the issue about more state to handle, but is that problematic from a pure programming point of view? Or simply about that potentially using more memory? I could probably live with the latter situation.
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Old 12-09-2010, 04:08 PM   #83
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This is why "virtual folders" (perhaps at the side) would be good for this to collections in and then hide them away at the top till your ready to use them. I know the media explorer has this with it's shortcuts but virtual collections are useful too (see the SWS media bay thingy
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Old 12-09-2010, 04:15 PM   #84
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There seems to be an issue with certain JS plugins.....

S&M Unquantizer plugin doesn't show up at all.

Presets aren't shown for others eg the JS: Delay/delay stock plugin.

v4.0alpha8 x86, XP x64
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Old 12-10-2010, 04:42 AM   #85
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Personally I'd prefer this to behave at least by default like the new Track Manager - switch from one project tab to another, Media Bay contents change to display items and FX only for that project.
Exactly. And the same should go for the FX tab.

Currently (alpha 9a), changing project tab changes the contents of the Media tab, but the FX tab contents remain. The same happens with Close All Projects; this clears the Project Bay Media tab, but not the FX tab.
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Old 12-10-2010, 03:30 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post
This is why "virtual folders" (perhaps at the side) would be good for this to collections in and then hide them away at the top till your ready to use them. I know the media explorer has this with it's shortcuts but virtual collections are useful too (see the SWS media bay thingy
You just described Bins.
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Old 12-10-2010, 03:57 PM   #87
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You just described Bins.
Do I win a prize?

Would love bins as the prize!
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Old 12-11-2010, 11:45 AM   #88
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The media bay looks like a system error message on a windows 95 pc. Look at digital performer and protools to see how this should have been implemented. Reaper is now the only major daw that uses huge amounts of floating windows!!! Bad move.
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Old 12-11-2010, 12:48 PM   #89
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The media bay looks like a system error message on a windows 95 pc. Look at digital performer and protools to see how this should have been implemented. Reaper is now the only major daw that uses huge amounts of floating windows!!! Bad move.
NOT when you have 7 monitors

I have lots of windows spread out all over the place (see my avatar) that's why I love reaper because it's adaptable, Protools doesn't adapt to me (bad move I say)

but I agree it could look better without the windows look and whiteness but we are close to being able to change this too.
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Old 12-13-2010, 11:27 AM   #90
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Bloody hell mate, you've got touch screens !

I wouldn't mind one. It would be neat if the toolbars were configurable with a snapping grid eh.

Anyhow, the Project bay/bin will get plenty of attention, I'm sure.

Me, I simply need a bunch of list windows to dump my material in to organize things in a project, ahead of a project, from another project, from collections of stuff independently cobbled together from various sources across my disks.

But what the hell, I've explained this so many times, I'll gladly do it again if I'm asked to.
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Old 12-14-2010, 12:56 PM   #91
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Are there plans to make the Project bay support the Reaper Media Items, not just references to whole disk files? (By media item I mean the whole deal that is the media item on the Reaper tracks : the source media trimmed in media offset/length, volume/pan/takefx properties etc)
You can currently control+alt drag media items from REAPER into the project bay, which will render the item (with offset, fades, take fx, etc) to disk and add the item to the bay, to be retained. This handles the case of wanting to preserve edited snippets to be reused in other projects. Saving track templates with media handles the case of reusing media items with undoable processing in new projects. Would you mind giving an example of the in-between use case that isn't met by either the project bay or track templates, or explaining a bit more about the proposal?
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Old 12-14-2010, 01:54 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
You can currently control+alt drag media items from REAPER into the project bay, which will render the item (with offset, fades, take fx, etc) to disk and add the item to the bay, to be retained. This handles the case of wanting to preserve edited snippets to be reused in other projects. Saving track templates with media handles the case of reusing media items with undoable processing in new projects. Would you mind giving an example of the in-between use case that isn't met by either the project bay or track templates, or explaining a bit more about the proposal?
Neither existing way allows to have media items in a later adjustable form in a storage that does not involve having them always on the project tracks.

If the item is rendered to a new file, the original properties like length (beyond the newly rendered file length) nor the media offset (beyond the start of the newly rendered file) can no longer be adjusted. So that is not so useful and is of course a workaround I have known to exist for years now. (You could of course have some pre and post rendered material in the rendered files, but that's not really an ideal approach to this.)

Having items in track templates does not help keeping items around for use in a current project. They'd be on some tracks in the project anyway. And the problem about having items only on tracks is that they are difficult to find later. A list-like presentation like what the media bay has, would be ideal. One clunky workaround I have occasionally used for this is to cut/adjust items in another project open in a tab. Again, that has the downside of not finding the desired item quickly and involves copying and pasting, instead of being able to find them in a list and drag and drop them in.

If you need a concrete example why I'd like to be able to do this : I might have a sample that I have adjusted in pitch according to some scale that isn't equally tempered. (Resulting perhaps in dozens of different media items with pitch adjustment settings that can't easily be separately set from human memory directly on the item properties.) Then I'd like to construct patterns on tracks from these pitch adjusted snippets with a nice workflow that does not involve scrolling around the project to find the tracks where those pre-cut and pitch adjusted items are. Granted, this could be achieved by rendering beforehand the items at their desired pitches and dragging them in from the media explorer or media bay, but later there would be no leeway to adjust things like the media offset and length freely. Also double processing with time/pitch processing might occur because the rendered file already has been processed once with the pitch processor. This simply isn't a very effective and flexible workflow.

By the way, please don't suggest to me using MIDI and sampler plugins for this. If that was the way I wanted to do this, I would not be asking for workflow improvements in Reaper to achieve these things more easily with media items. MIDI becomes rather impossible to manage for things like precise adjustment of time offset into the samples and using free non-equal temperament tunings. With the media items I can clearly see directly what part of a sound will be played, each sound can have it's own fade in/out/volume envelope characteristics and so on.
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Old 12-14-2010, 02:10 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenakios View Post
..

By the way, please don't suggest to me using MIDI and sampler plugins for this. If that was the way I wanted to do this, I would not be asking for workflow improvements in Reaper to achieve these things more easily with media items. MIDI becomes rather impossible to manage for things like precise adjustment of time offset into the samples..
one (if not THE) best posts of this year, imo.


thx Xen.
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Old 12-14-2010, 04:37 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenakios View Post
Neither existing way allows to have media items in a later adjustable form in a storage that does not involve having them always on the project tracks.

Having items in track templates does not help keeping items around for use in a current project.
A list-like presentation like what the media bay has, would be ideal.

One clunky workaround I have occasionally used for this is to cut/adjust items in another project open in a tab.
Absolutely right Xenakios.

I was assuming that this is what a bay would be for too. I need to:

- keep clip items around for future projects in their edited state
- keep items around in un-edited states
- sort those items into some logical order (folders,bins,etc)
- play those items from one window without it jumping between windows
- easily delete items from the bin(s)
-easily import different lists of items into existing bins (or new ones).

In a project with loads of clips, you absolutely don't want to render them all to new files for reasons Xen has highlighted.
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Old 12-16-2010, 08:41 PM   #95
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Default Would love a "select all items in arrange" for media items

I'm sure we had this at one point?
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Old 12-16-2010, 08:43 PM   #96
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Default Does the fx bay deal properly with "offline fx" as well as bypassed?

Couldn't get it to work here yet.
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Old 12-16-2010, 08:43 PM   #97
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Default what's the "search" button do in media bay?

it's always greyed out here at the mo.
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Old 12-23-2010, 04:49 AM   #98
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Re: deleting items

I am always in favor of the Trash/Recycle Bin concept... deleted items are moved/flagged as Trashed, and a second user intervention is required for complete removal. Or by reopening the project depending on the preferences.

Suggestions (4.0alpha17):

1) Separate filter for the FX and the Media (filter box is included in the tab and retains a separate string for each)

2) Two filter toggles for the FX: Show 'effects' and 'instruments'. Show effects only, instruments only, or both (default). (please use these generic names, not VST or VSTi)

3) A 'close' button bottom right is a good idea.

Last edited by Evan; 12-23-2010 at 04:58 AM.
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Old 12-28-2010, 07:07 AM   #99
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Default another vote for edited clips -> media bay

Good people - I'm really missing the ability to:

Drag edits or bits of clips from the media explorer into the media bay, and the associated listing of editied clips from a session if required.

It's often the edited work you need, not just the main file. I find myself dragging things to the bay (great), but performing exactly the same edits i've already done elsewhere.

Thanks for your consideration!
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Old 12-30-2010, 05:30 PM   #100
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Default Alpha 20

You could knock me down with a feather. Here we have it - media items in the bay in Alpha 20. That's really impressive guys.

When you're next able to work on this feature, can we possibly have:

playback/preview of those media item clips without switching to media explorer if at all possible.

Thank you as ever for your work, and listening to us users! It's really quite amazing.
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Old 12-30-2010, 06:10 PM   #101
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FR #1: Audio, MIDI, Audio+MIDI view filters for the items listing

FR #2: Activity indicator during playback (shows a mark on which items are active at any given moment)
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Old 12-30-2010, 06:39 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griz lee View Post
You could knock me down with a feather. Here we have it - media items in the bay in Alpha 20. That's really impressive guys.

When you're next able to work on this feature, can we possibly have:

playback/preview of those media item clips without switching to media explorer if at all possible.

Thank you as ever for your work, and listening to us users! It's really quite amazing.
I would love this too and folders BUT so far loving where the bay is going!
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Old 12-31-2010, 05:17 PM   #103
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does it allow to delete unused items ?

I hate when I delete unused items from the project directory, then get nagged about missing items whenever I open the project. then i have to search for it in the arrange view , which can be very tiresome when the item is small.
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Old 01-03-2011, 04:43 AM   #104
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Default Dead Donkeys etc...

Hi,

Not wishing to flog any...but I was wondering if there was any chance of news concerning potential OMF or AAF support. I had a look at the v4 changes (very nice indeed) and I realise that it is still in alpha stage...

But a glimpse of your thoughts would be welcome!

Thanks in advance.
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Old 01-03-2011, 06:10 AM   #105
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I'm inclined to think that you won't see it implemented for a while if ever but one of the reasons may be that others have already done it AATranslator is a cheap and excellent program that works well and events works directly into reaper format amongst many others. If cockos did add it the time they would have to put in would raise the price of reaper solely for a feature not everyone would use hence the 3rd party solution

Not that I would complain if it was put in and also I'm not the devs so I could be wrong!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eden-X View Post
Hi,

Not wishing to flog any...but I was wondering if there was any chance of news concerning potential OMF or AAF support. I had a look at the v4 changes (very nice indeed) and I realise that it is still in alpha stage...

But a glimpse of your thoughts would be welcome!

Thanks in advance.
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Old 01-04-2011, 02:44 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by musicbynumbers View Post
I'm inclined to think that you won't see it implemented for a while if ever but one of the reasons may be that others have already done it AATranslator is a cheap and excellent program that works well and events works directly into reaper format amongst many others. If cockos did add it the time they would have to put in would raise the price of reaper solely for a feature not everyone would use hence the 3rd party solution

Not that I would complain if it was put in and also I'm not the devs so I could be wrong!
It's a fair point...
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Old 01-04-2011, 05:14 PM   #107
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Default Just noticed these two things in alpha 23

1_ item fx: might be worth having these be able to show the item/items they are on when clicking the usage button

2_ solo: still able to mess things up when soloing say two items and then un-soling one then going and soling an additional item, solo then becomes defunct, perhaps any item's solo button for an item that isn't soloed should change to an "un-solo all" button that takes solo of for all items.

(that's it for now.. will post in project bay area two for reference)
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Old 01-04-2011, 05:58 PM   #108
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Default Project bay: should be able to select all items that the file relates to..

..instead of just one at a time and when you do select all items we should have an option in the bay to make the arrange not only select them but "zoom to fit", this would make navigation very easy.
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Old 01-05-2011, 05:42 PM   #109
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I am excited that the media bay can now list in-project midi items. And with pooled items it's getting awesome.

Some stuff I'd like to see added:

1) 'Select in arrangement' option to select items in the arrangement view (from the media bay). It exists now, but it's in the 'Usage' sub-menu and won't select multiple items.

So, a simple 'select item(s)' in the right click menu (media bay) would do the trick. When used on a pooled item, selects all pooled items. When used on multiple items, selects all items.

2) The reverse: find (select) in the media bay the item(s) selected in the arrangement view. Real-time if possible (like with track manager)
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Old 01-06-2011, 05:02 PM   #110
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It would be great if it was possible (optionally) to have the project media items in the bay be retained (after being removed from the tracks). Now it requires going to the project bay list context menu for each new item that appears there to change the retainment setting.

I would also like to request that the sizing of the project bay window would be allowed to go much narrower in width than currently is possible. It is nice to have the possibility to have all the additional details available for viewing when needed, but often one would only require the take names visible.
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Old 01-06-2011, 06:04 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
You can currently control+alt drag media items from REAPER into the project bay
If I do that with a midi (vsti) clip I only get a new midi file. Is there a way to "drag and drop" render a midi clip into an audio file(including full effect decay with no cut off seound)?
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Old 01-08-2011, 03:52 AM   #112
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Default Playback/preview of media clips - necessary and important for editors

Schwa -

The bay is really shaping up. Saving and loading of media items works great.

Please can we have playback/previewof any kind from the 'media clips' page?

I'm editing segments for a radio show right now. I did all the edits in one session, and saved the bay. Great! All the clips come back. But, with a hundred or so clips all referencing a limited number of files, I need to be able to auditon the clips themselves (not the source file) so i can decide which ones to use in the new session as that's where the 'work' is/has been done.

Thanks for all your work on this!
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Old 01-09-2011, 04:13 PM   #113
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Default Bugs and stuff I've found (using alpha 27a) so far

Project bay stuff

1-can't play muted items (could be useful to know what's lurking underneath that mute!)

2-option to disable loop (or loop toggle button)

3-Option to auto zoom to arrange page item when using the "usage" function in the project bay

4-Option to "unsolo all" (that replaces "solo") when selecting an item that has not been soloed, that and an indicator of which track is soloed. The right click solo menu option does not change to "un-solo" either when other tracks are soloed.

5-Middle mouse button for vertical scrolling would be lovely

6-Adding item fx to an item (that you have multiple copies of in the arrange) should probably add an item to the project bay as a different version of it (as of 27a you can "cooly" hear the item fx on the project bay preview)

7-Option to audition items at respective track fader level or have a audition level "knob" in left corner (or slip in the media explorer preview area!)

8-Usage button: at top of it it could have a "select all in arrange".

9-Fx window: Usage doesn't work for item fx.

10-If you have the option "automatically retain.." on in the bay and then split a midi item you get a copy of the item that is no longer in the project plus one that is BUT both now have the retain tag active even though they are still in the project (well one of them is)

11-Pressing browse (in source media) opens up the media explorer but doesn't automatically highlight the correct file.

12-Another great reason for allowing the graphical part of the media explorer to be optionally shown in the project bay is at the moment if we audition a long item there's no way to skip through it.

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Old 01-11-2011, 07:03 PM   #114
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I really like the recent item auditioning improvements.

Is it possible to expose each and all media items to 3rd party developers through an API? I haven't programmed for Reaper but I suspect this may work out great. We're now getting non-linear item playback.

Down the road, this can be further refined to allow triggering multiple items, through various play modes and synchronization strategies. Once the audio engine is in place, 3rd party plugins could have a go at it.
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Old 01-14-2011, 05:24 AM   #115
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Default Alpha 28 bay

Spectacular bay improvements. Well done guys!

One logical problem remains:

- You can drag and drop quickly edited clips from the media explorer preview waveform display (using that nice new functionality) into the bay.

- However,

in the 'files' bay view, you only get one file represented.
in the 'media items' bay view, nothing gets added.

I'd have expected the 'files' view to show one file, and the media items view to show the clip i'd just dragged.
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Old 01-14-2011, 06:52 AM   #116
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For a "bay" I don't see any water. I feel kind of cheated...
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Old 01-14-2011, 07:30 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griz lee View Post
- You can drag and drop quickly edited clips from the media explorer preview waveform display (using that nice new functionality) into the bay.

- However,

in the 'files' bay view, you only get one file represented.
in the 'media items' bay view, nothing gets added.

I'd have expected the 'files' view to show one file, and the media items view to show the clip i'd just dragged.
Really good idea!
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Old 01-14-2011, 07:39 AM   #118
airon
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A much requested, revered feature of a bin(bay) system is the ability to select a bit of the source material to drag in to the project.

The media explorer preview is predestined for this duty.

One may even be so bold as to display it for the media items of a project, in which the user can then mess about with the item boundaries, perhaps limited to the same length by default. Useful for shifting bits of a music loop. Let's make the most of it if and when this preview makes it in to the media bay/bin.
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Old 01-14-2011, 07:39 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kundalinguist View Post
For a "bay" I don't see any water. I feel kind of cheated...
Think of it as more of a dry dock. With appropriate loading and unloading gear.
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Old 01-15-2011, 06:53 AM   #120
Evan
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[AUDITIONING]

Ideally, the media bay (and the media explorer for that matter) need to have a dedicated output with a volume control and a VU meter. The Media Explorer already has a volume control, but no VU activity that I can see.

Reasoning:

1) When an audio signal is playing back, I want to know where it's coming from, the routing, is it coming out of any bus? the master? dry? wet? and so on... And I am trying to find some sort of activity meters to check the above.

2) Calibrating the volume of the monitoring chain is important. And often we will want a high-headroom environment where the mix may be several dB lower than the full volume of the outputs. Therefore, auditioning loud samples (like normalized/limited commercial music) through the media explorer or bay, may deliver an unexpected loud blast.

It is therefore very important to have a controlled and reliable path for the raw playback from these two components. At the very least, a volume control and activity meter.

I take it slightly further... Why not create separate, perhaps hidden, busses in the mixer? Similar to the MASTER bus, how about an AUDITION bus? The Media Explorer and Bay, could route through the AUDITION bus for their raw output. And the volume control+VU meter on both components, are linked to (and control) the AUDITION bus indirectly.


[Instruments & FX]

On a separate note, I am very much in favor of separating my FX from my instruments (VSTi), conceptually, as much as possible. 90% of my studio is pretty much the computer, and even though the technical implementation of instruments and fx may be similar (VST and whatever), the functional side of it is very different! I still don't like instruments being bundled in a generic 'fx' label and would love a little separation between the two.

On the above note, the Media Bay uses an 'FX' tab and lists both instruments and effects. Would it make sense to have a separate tab labeled 'Instruments' and just list the VSTi/DXi? That would also allow some more relevant columns in the future like e.g. transpose, octave etc...


[Folders and Grouping]
The capability for folders was recently added to the Media Bay. Still needs some work obviously, and it is going to be hugely useful, but let me make a few points here...

The very first thing I'd want to have as folder-like expandable lists, are the shared items and FX. A pooled MIDI item or an FX used in multiple tracks... they both appear as a single entry in the list. Which is good for saving space. But ultimately, the need will come, to expand the list and have access to that specific plugin on track 6, or a specific item on track 7. All inside the Media Bay.

And that's where Folders are better for, in my opinion.

Going into more detail in this concept...

1) Allow user folders in the Source Media only. The source material is not organized by default, and appears exactly once in the list. So user organization with folders makes sense.

2) In the Media Items panel... Pooled MIDI items appear as a folder, with all separate items inside that folder. Expanding the folder, you get to see each of the pooled items, each row spanning a single track only. Duplicated media items, the same.

3) In the FX panel... again, the same. Duplicated FX are a folder, expanding the folder lists all the FX instances.

4) Abandon the concept of user created folders for the media items and fx lists. The content there already has some form of user organization (i.e. tracks). But do allow tagging instead. If you allow one user tag per-entry initially, you get the benefit of organization, tag based filtering, and you also get to keep the simple list layout as it is now.

So now you end up with folders representing structure, and tags representing user organization.

Last edited by Evan; 01-15-2011 at 07:13 AM.
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