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Old 12-01-2010, 11:31 AM   #1
schwa
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Default >> v4: Track stereo width, improved panning modes

As per Alpha61b:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin View Post
Specifically, there will be four pan modes:
  • 3.x classic balance (deprecated -- only for project compatibility, really)
  • Stereo balance / mono pan -- this is similar to classic balance, except it is equal power on a mono signal, and on stereo it uses equal power gain on each channel, but does not intermix channels at all. If the width control is used it is applied prior to pan.
  • Stereo pan -- this should be similar to astrobuf's mixpan. If the width control is used it is applied prior to pan.
  • Dual pan -- this converts the width UI into a "pan-right" control, and the normal pan control becomes "pan-left". Each side is panned from a mono signal to the stereo field, using a similar algorithm to the previous two modes, except two independent instances. The important thing here is that when switching to/from this mode, you will likely get vast vast vast differences in how things sound.

Last edited by Mercado_Negro; 04-08-2011 at 08:26 PM.
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Old 12-01-2010, 12:24 PM   #2
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So is stereo panning for the left and right channels equal or can each side be individually panned? For example, the left channel at 45% left and the right channel at 75% right. I see the single pan control and single width control but no individual L/R pan controls with stereo pan selected. I know this can be done by exploding the stereo file into two separate files and panning as needed (with separate pan envelopes or on separate tracks) but dual panners on one track is what I think of when talking about dual panning. Curious???

Also, selecting/deselecting "show pan controls at top" doesn't move the pan controls from the top to the bottom for me. Anyone else???

Last edited by Airspeed; 12-01-2010 at 01:05 PM.
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Old 12-01-2010, 12:51 PM   #3
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I can't seem to change the balance to a stereo width control (stereo track), i get no change at all, whatever i'm trying to set... XPx86

...And it would be comforting to close the dialog with an enter instead of the big X
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Old 12-01-2010, 12:52 PM   #4
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Same questions here. Love the idea. Can't figure out if I understood it wrong though. Is it nestled in a menu somewhere?
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Old 12-01-2010, 01:05 PM   #5
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Changing pan in the TCP makes the corresponding changes in the mixer. The opposite is not true. Moving the pan handles in the mixer does not move the corresponding pan handles in the TCP.

Actually, it appears (from the text values) that pan is changing, but graphically, the pan handle is not moving in the TCP.

Same applies for double-clicking to centre it.

Happening for anyone else?
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Old 12-01-2010, 01:11 PM   #6
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Hmm ok, there IS a width control - in the i/o window - but it seem to be there independent of how the pan/bal-prefs are set?
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Old 12-01-2010, 01:19 PM   #7
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Pan controls are always shown at top.
Doesn't matter if 'Show pan controls at top' is ticked or not.

Expected: Pan controls shown at bottom if 'Show pan controls at top' is unticked.

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Old 12-01-2010, 02:13 PM   #8
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The pan faders always being at the top of the MCP is specific to the v4 theme, and will be corrected (by adding some WALTER logic) at some point (it does still work in other themes).

Regarding the pan modes, if you enable the width controls, and set a track to "stereo pan" mode, then you effectively have dual mono pan, where:

The left is panned by Pan - Width.

The right is panned by Pan + Width.

If you wish to do arbitrary stereo pans, you'd set the pan to the midpoint of the two, and the width to (half) the distance between them.

In alpha2 there will be slightly more descriptive names for the pan modes.
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Old 12-01-2010, 02:29 PM   #9
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Justin, thanks for the reply... it makes a little more sense now but why not just two separate controls for left and right stereo pan? Visually it would be easier to see something like L=35% R=95% (on separate pan sliders or knobs) for example. Even an option to either have it like you mentioned or separated (pan and width) controls would be nice. Thanks!
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Old 12-01-2010, 03:16 PM   #10
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^^^ ditto
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Old 12-01-2010, 03:39 PM   #11
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ditto!!! too!!!
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Old 12-01-2010, 03:46 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airspeed View Post
Visually it would be easier to see something like L=35% R=95% (on separate pan sliders or knobs) for example. Even an option to either have it like you mentioned or separated (pan and width) controls would be nice. Thanks!
Here's what i've been hoping for V4 since the old days of FR requests regarding different Stereo Pan modes:

[IMG]http://img713.**************/img713/8529/pandream.png[/IMG]
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Old 12-01-2010, 03:54 PM   #13
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Lots of dittos!!!

Renan, awesome mockup! Fingers crossed! : )
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Old 12-01-2010, 04:01 PM   #14
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Certainly more intuitive; just grab the knob and turn as opposed to: come to the forum, search for Justin post, read it, let it sink in for a minute or two, then go back to the project and...where was I?
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Old 12-01-2010, 04:50 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renan L.B View Post
[IMG]http://img695.**************/img695/8358/capture2yi.png[/IMG] <-- resized it
Yes, a lot easier to use/understand.
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Old 12-01-2010, 06:19 PM   #16
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^^^(see pic in post above)
Does not immediately communicate the left/right width and placement within the available field.
Split horizontal faders with a linking capability to enable placement of desired width within field... I believe there is a nice mockup of many feature "wants" that had this... Brice maybe? Evil Dragon?

Always found it amusing that an app without single channel width would default to, and be limited to, a panning system that is best used with such; with multi-channel this "panning" becomes "balance."
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Old 12-01-2010, 06:43 PM   #17
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I have to admit I can't wrap my dyslexia around how the new pan is set up!
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Old 12-01-2010, 06:43 PM   #18
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I like this:

http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...8&postcount=63
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Old 12-01-2010, 07:13 PM   #19
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[QUOTE=JasonSpatola;628066]I like this:

http://forum.cockos.com/showpost.php...8&postcount=63[/QUOTE ]

me too...
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Old 12-01-2010, 07:25 PM   #20
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This is an old FR, but I guess it's relevant here. Could we have the option of typing-in the pan value by right clicking on the pan slider, just as we do it for volume on the volume fader?
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Old 12-01-2010, 07:29 PM   #21
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Also, regarding the Width feature; I believe Cubase/Nuendo's Dual-Panner is the most intuitive way of doing this.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/dec0.../cubase3.l.jpg
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Old 12-01-2010, 07:37 PM   #22
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Yeah, I've missed the way cubase handles this....and no I'm NOT going back to cubase lol
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Old 12-01-2010, 08:02 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gembez View Post
Could we have the option of typing-in the pan value by right clicking on the pan slider, just as we do it for volume on the volume fader?
Yeah, since the panning features are getting an overhaul, this would seem to be an obvious addition. Gets my vote, for sure.
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Old 12-02-2010, 02:27 AM   #24
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just insert a ReaSurround!!!
and you have everything what you need!
with excellent visual, easy to understand - great for replace a stereo tool

Superb new features !!!
Thx Cockos!
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Old 12-02-2010, 02:31 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Janoosh View Post
just insert a ReaSurround!!!
and you have everything what you need!
with excellent visual, easy to understand - great for replace a stereo tool
That's like killing a fly with an AK-47... there's already chanmix for this sort of things, but as I understand, most who want stereo panning want it native, not as a plug.
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Old 12-02-2010, 02:58 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bernstraw View Post
Yes, a lot easier to use/understand.
Logical it is I would say.
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Old 12-02-2010, 03:12 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonSpatola View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by strunkdts View Post
me too...

Red line indicates the panning (always in the middle of the two blue lines), blue the width, moving the blue width indicators will only move the panning if you widen so much that you hit left or right boundaries (Or use a modifier key to keep the other channel where it is). moving the red line will only affect the width if the blue lines hit left or right boundaries, in which case the width will diminish accordingly....


Thanks Jason & Strunkdts

Last edited by vocalid; 12-02-2010 at 09:15 AM. Reason: Edit, put in the panning app in question
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Old 12-02-2010, 04:44 AM   #28
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I personally like the Pan + Width control and the option to choose the kind of panner you want per track. A good improvement to this scheme would require a change in GUI when stereo pan selected - it should read L and R instead of Pan and Width - that would make this scheme perfect.
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Old 12-02-2010, 04:48 AM   #29
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another +1 for a added duel pan mode

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Old 12-02-2010, 07:17 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Subz View Post
another +1 for a added duel pan mode

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Old 12-02-2010, 07:20 AM   #31
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but i must repeat!

'Added' option

the current way is super kewl also!

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Old 12-02-2010, 07:29 AM   #32
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I think I like the JS dual panner better, it would have been good if they would have just incorporated that way instead. I think I will stick with the dual panner.
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Old 12-02-2010, 07:33 AM   #33
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I think the width control is a very nice feature indeed. I find these two sliders more convenient than the proposed split over three separate controls (just my opinion), and I'd miss this option if it had to go away again.
Acts as a quick mono button, too.
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Old 12-02-2010, 08:18 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikki-k View Post
^^^(see pic in post above)
Does not immediately communicate the left/right width and placement within the available field.
Split horizontal faders with a linking capability to enable placement of desired width within field...
Agreed!
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Old 12-02-2010, 11:11 AM   #35
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I second the idea of setting the pan with a right click.

And why arent we fixing the Pan taper laws as per IID# 1860

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Old 12-02-2010, 11:35 AM   #36
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anyone got a real cut and dry, for dummies explanation of how this works?
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Old 12-02-2010, 11:40 AM   #37
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You mean "how" to set it up? Right click on the track (mixer or TCP) go to the "mixer" section of the layout menu and click on "default and width" and you have width controls.

Not sure if that was the "how" you wanted.

The other "how" is that it funnels the sound to a narrower output width/degree which you can then aim/pan left or right.
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Old 12-02-2010, 12:19 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kundalinguist View Post
The other "how" is that it funnels the sound to a narrower output width/degree which you can then aim/pan left or right.
this is the other "how" i need clarification on
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Old 12-02-2010, 12:36 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Brian Merrill View Post
this is the other "how" i need clarification on
Me too would gladly welcome a good clarification on how to get this working and in use with a stereo track example
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Old 12-02-2010, 01:11 PM   #40
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I admit current implementation doesn't seem too intuitive at first but once you understand how it works you realize it's very powerful and handy. You can place left and right around using the Stereo Pan mode. For example, if you want to pan the left channel at 50% left and right channel at 75% right you just put the pan fader around 12% and width to 60% or so. The thing is in Stereo Pan, left is pan-width and right is pan+width (not easy to see, I know). Let's try to use an example in Stereo Pan (I suck at teaching, please bear with me):

If you pan at 100% L and width is at 100% you'll end up with the left channel hard panned to the left and the right channel in the center. You're panning the whole stereo image to the left here and that's why the right channel moves to the center (width is at 100%). Now, if you start to close the stereo image with the width fader you'll hear the left channel starts moving to the center (remember you're closing it). At width 0% the left channel will be completely centered like the right channel and at -100% the right channel moves to the left and the left channel goes to the center. So how to pan things to specific places? Well, we need to visualize it first and then proceed. If you want left at 50% left just move the pan fader to 50% right and keep width at 100% and so on.

Hope that helps a bit folks.
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