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Old 12-02-2010, 01:38 PM   #41
Fivebillion1
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great feature!

I personally like the stereo pan with width control over any other option, not to say that other people wouldn't have reason for independent L and R controls.

easy to visualize and I wouldn't understand any other way to pan an already existing stereo image.

It would be great if their was a visual indicator for what the slider is controlling, balance or stereo pan... I am quickly forgetting which tracks I've switched from balance
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Old 12-02-2010, 01:43 PM   #42
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Mercado, thanks for making my brain short circuit. : )

I think dual panning needs to include TWO(dual) pan controls. Each control can have its own width control as well. It needs to be visually self explanatory like the other DAW's that already have dual pan and width controls.

I'm having a hard time grasping the pan right to pan left explanation at this point. We need pictures, please!!! : )
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Old 12-02-2010, 02:01 PM   #43
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I tend to agree... with the confused folks.

It would be way easier to set L-75% left and R-25% right, if in split panner mode, the top fader controled the Left and the Bottom fader controled the right. Then, I'd simply move the top one rightward until it read 75%L and move the bottom fader leftward until it read 25%R.
[-I--|---] 75%L
[---|-I--] 25%R

beats the snot out of "put the pan fader around 12% and width to 60% or so"

Now I have to do math and guesstimate... what did you say? top to 12 and width to 60% <-- that is greek to me. Alas.

I am not saying to scrap the new and nifty powerful stuff, but a simple split-dual panner is yet to be seen.
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Old 12-02-2010, 02:40 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airspeed View Post
Mercado, thanks for making my brain short circuit. : )

I think dual panning needs to include TWO(dual) pan controls. Each control can have its own width control as well. It needs to be visually self explanatory like the other DAW's that already have dual pan and width controls.

I'm having a hard time grasping the pan right to pan left explanation at this point. We need pictures, please!!! : )
Dual pan controls would be fine but it is just the same as now There 2 important things here in Stereo Pan:

Width controls the stereo image width

Pan moves the stereo image

Best way to understand how this works is (that's how I understood it):

1) Insert 3 tracks
2) Make track 1 a folder
3) Insert one mono item in track 2
4) Insert a TOTALLY different mono item in track 3
5) Switch track 1 to Stereo Pan and start moving the pan to the left/right and then move the width.

I'm pretty sure you'll understand it quickly with that test Go Airspeed! Go!
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Old 12-02-2010, 02:42 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by yhertogh View Post
And why arent we fixing the Pan taper laws as per IID# 1860

Yves
+1

As regards to panning, i still stand by the mock up i posted on the previous page of this thread or anything similar to that workflow/example. The current new system is unnecessarily complex...
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Old 12-02-2010, 02:44 PM   #46
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there is no way to do this a little more complex???
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Old 12-02-2010, 02:50 PM   #47
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dual panners are fine as well I suppose its a bit of preference... coming up crude (not %100 accurate) pictures,
Attached Images
File Type: jpg pan.jpg (25.3 KB, 177 views)
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Old 12-02-2010, 03:01 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro View Post
I admit current implementation doesn't seem too intuitive at first but once you understand how it works you realize it's very powerful and handy. You can place left and right around using the Stereo Pan mode. For example, if you want to pan the left channel at 50% left and right channel at 75% right you just put the pan fader around 12% and width to 60% or so. The thing is in Stereo Pan, left is pan-width and right is pan+width (not easy to see, I know). Let's try to use an example in Stereo Pan (I suck at teaching, please bear with me):

If you pan at 100% L and width is at 100% you'll end up with the left channel hard panned to the left and the right channel in the center. You're panning the whole stereo image to the left here and that's why the right channel moves to the center (width is at 100%). Now, if you start to close the stereo image with the width fader you'll hear the left channel starts moving to the center (remember you're closing it). At width 0% the left channel will be completely centered like the right channel and at -100% the right channel moves to the left and the left channel goes to the center. So how to pan things to specific places? Well, we need to visualize it first and then proceed. If you want left at 50% left just move the pan fader to 50% right and keep width at 100% and so on.

Hope that helps a bit folks.
!!!!!!! O_0
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Old 12-02-2010, 03:02 PM   #49
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I didnt get it either at first...but i like it now. I have never, ever had the need to pan left to X and right to Y, i always go by ear, and i actually think that that is EASIER with this way of controlling it. I guess this is highly personal...but when listening for the best spot(s) to place a stereotrack, beeing able to move both channels simultaniously and being able to adjust the width without moving the image makes perfect sense...to me at least.
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Old 12-02-2010, 03:08 PM   #50
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I didnt get it either at first...but i like it now. I have never, ever had the need to pan left to X and right to Y, i always go by ear, and i actually think that that is EASIER with this way of controlling it. I guess this is highly personal...but when listening for the best spot(s) to place a stereotrack, beeing able to move both channels simultaniously and being able to adjust the width without moving the image makes perfect sense...to me at least.
These are exactly my thoughts, a permanent relationship between width and movement makes it easier for me because I can move everything as a whole.
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Old 12-02-2010, 03:19 PM   #51
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Here's an attempt on an animation on how to use the stereo mode: https://stash.reaper.fm/7210/40_pan_stereo_mode_1.gif
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Old 12-02-2010, 03:37 PM   #52
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For what I've experimented all 3 pan modes are almost identical in the way they function in terms of positioning and shapping a sound into the soundscape: you position the sound with the pan and you can make it thick or thinner with the width - this is obvious, so I was (and still am) looking for something different in the Stereo mode but I can't figure it out - I analysed the changes I was making (listening and seeing) and what it does is exactly what I described before. It does sound better and seems to give another dimension to a stereo file, better definition, I really don't know what, but I prefer it over the other two (on the Goniometer seems to position sounds a little deeper to the edges and a little louder or closer than the other two).
This works good for me and after some time of pratice I guess I won't miss the dual panners.

Some other notes:
- seems more logical to me that the pan numbers should be on the left side and the width on the right
- there should be (I didn't find it but I'm not sure that isn't) an option to define the default pan mode as there is for the pan law
- there should be any kind of indication to what mode is in use
- is this going to work with midi controllers like for example PT dual panners? It would be very good if we could alternate the control over pan and width like with L and R panner.

[I'm sorry about my first post on this thread I wasn't understanding this very well.]
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Old 12-02-2010, 04:02 PM   #53
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Ollie, thanks for the video but could you please explain how I could pan hard left and hard right? Do I leave the pan control centered with width at full? How do I have hard panned L and R with narrow width for L and R individually (with no sound up the middle... just sound at hard L and R)? The video looks like a mono source being panned left then widened slightly. I thought dual panning was the ability to individually pan (separately) the left and right channels as needed. Ultimate flexibility to me would be for example panning the left channel to 52%L with a narrow width and the right channel to 27%R with a wide width. I don't see how I could easily do this with the current setup without just exploding a stereo file into two separate mono tracks and treating them individually that way. Still confused...
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Old 12-02-2010, 04:27 PM   #54
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https://stash.reaper.fm/7211/40_pan_stereo_mode_2.gif

Both channels are panned full left. Since the left channel can't go any further left, increasing width pushes the right channel back towards the right and the centerline (of the panned signal) follows accordingly.
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Old 12-02-2010, 05:42 PM   #55
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I'm still a little upset over the inability to move marquee selection over to left-click, but this pan width thing I like. I like it a lot actually. Nice one Reaper dudes.
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Old 12-02-2010, 05:46 PM   #56
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So this width control would be for an exclusively stereo source then, obviously.

Basically, with the width control all the way down...

anyway, I decided to set up my own testing environment like you

I got this at one point:

[img]http://img822.**************/img822/1061/110112194338fxtrack4sch.png[/img]

this is probably going to be different due to pan laws and my methodology, no?

heres the RPP:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3305204/widthpantest.RPP

how does that look?

really interesting!!!!

the plugins for that project are here:

free mda plugins

http://mda.smartelectronix.com/effects.htm

and the demo of schope:

http://www.stillwellaudio.com/?page_id=26
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Old 12-02-2010, 05:53 PM   #57
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Now that we have excellent pan controls, is there an easy way to merge two mono tracks into a single stereo track yet? I.E. exported tracks from Pro Tools?

Also, is there an action command to make the width control visible in the mixer/tcp?

Last edited by Mr. Green; 12-02-2010 at 06:21 PM.
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Old 12-02-2010, 07:17 PM   #58
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Feature Request for Pan Mode and Pan Law

Please allow to change Pan Mode and Pan Law on all selected tracks at once by just changing it in one of them.
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Old 12-02-2010, 07:48 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro View Post
Feature Request for Pan Mode and Pan Law

Please allow to change Pan Mode and Pan Law on all selected tracks at once by just changing it in one of them.
yeah that would make stuff like my example above work better
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Old 12-02-2010, 09:13 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Ollie View Post
Here's an attempt on an animation on how to use the stereo mode: https://stash.reaper.fm/7210/40_pan_stereo_mode_1.gif
good video, thanks.


But which brings further question. First is: why is it that switching the panner to stereo pan mode doesn't actually bring...the stereo pan control up? We have to go hunt into the layout menu for that, and I never, ever in a billion years would have known it was there without seeing it in the video. Even knowing it can be found somewhere, it still took me quite a while to find it.
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Old 12-02-2010, 09:51 PM   #61
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Ok, based on Ollie's video I think I must be thinking on a different level than the current setup. The current setup does not allow for individual control of either the L or R channels independently. From what I see if you move one side it automatically affects the other side based on the single line moving to the left in the video. Also, the width is in relation to the width of L and R summed together not as individual width controls for each channel. So based on what was shown in the video it's really one pan control for L/R combined and one width control to change the width of L/R combined.

I was thinking dual panning was like this:
Imagine two separate spotlights, one on the left and one on the right. If I want to move the right spotlight I can without changing the position of the left spotlight because they're not attached to each other. Now in addition to two separate spotlights, each spotlight has a way to narrow or widen the beam of light. So I move the right spotlight and narrow the beam while the left spotlight stays in it's current position with it's beam wider than the right spotlight. I hope I didn't lose anyone here but this is what I visualize when talking about dual panning. Separate individual control. One side has complete flexibility without affecting the other side.

Phweeewww...

Also with the current setup is it even possible (using just one track) to move the RIGHT side to hard left and the LEFT side to hard right (at the same time) by using just the one panning slider? Not sure if I'd ever need to do this but the only way I could see this being possible is with two separate pan sliders or knobs. Curious...

Last edited by Airspeed; 12-02-2010 at 10:11 PM.
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Old 12-02-2010, 10:28 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airspeed View Post
Imagine two separate spotlights, one on the left and one on the right. If I want to move the right spotlight I can without changing the position of the left spotlight because they're not attached to each other. Now in addition to two separate spotlights, each spotlight has a way to narrow or widen the beam of light. So I move the right spotlight and narrow the beam while the left spotlight stays in it's current position with it's beam wider than the right spotlight. I hope I didn't lose anyone here but this is what I visualize when talking about dual panning. Separate individual control. One side has complete flexibility without affecting the other side.
You can't control the width of something that's mono (remember each channel is just a mono 'source'). When you say "narrow the beam" you're just talking about a psycho-acoustical 'phenom' that happens when one of the channels is 'leaked' to the opposite side by panning but you aren't really widening/narrowing the image of something that doesn't have a stereo image to start with. Right now you can't place one channel at X and then(separately) move the opposite channel to Y, that's true, but you can effectively place both channels at X and Y, respectively, by moving both pan and width in Stereo Pan mode. Different ways to get you there, that's all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Airspeed View Post
Also with the current setup is it even possible to move the RIGHT side to hard left and the LEFT side to hard right (at the same time) by using just the one panning slider? Not sure if I'd ever need to do this but the only way I could see this being possible is with two separate pan sliders or knobs. Curious...
Yes, it it possible. Once you move the width fader to negative values the stereo image is reversed so if you need to put R to L and L to R you just need to move the width fader to -100%.
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Old 12-02-2010, 10:43 PM   #63
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Mercado, thanks for the explanation. So something like Waves S1 can not be used to widen a mono bass or drum sound, correct? I can pan the mono sound left or right as needed but width control is nonexistent because I need two sound sources to achieve this effect. I swear I've seen other DAW's allow for individual panning and width control of the left and right sides separately. I've been using Reaper for a long time now so maybe I'm not remembering things correctly. : 0
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Old 12-02-2010, 10:46 PM   #64
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Mercado, thanks for the explanation. So something like Waves S1 can not be used to widen a mono bass or drum sound, correct?
I don't know Waves S1, never used it before but if you can do it with it then that plug-in is doing some tricks to achieve it like applying filtering and changing the source in some way.
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Old 12-02-2010, 10:54 PM   #65
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I'll add another +1 to the separate L and R knobs for stereo control. But I think it would be great in addition to the current feature. I can think of uses for both.
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Old 12-02-2010, 10:59 PM   #66
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I'll add another +1 to the separate L and R knobs for stereo control. But I think it would be great in addition to the current feature. I can think of uses for both.
I'm not against separate L and R knobs but seriously, it is the same

I fully understand the need of these 2 separate faders/knobs/sliders because most people are used to it and because of that it looks more intuitive but it makes no difference at all in sound and capabilities I think.
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Old 12-02-2010, 11:12 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro View Post
I'm not against separate L and R knobs but seriously, it is the same

I fully understand the need of these 2 separate faders/knobs/sliders because most people are used to it and because of that it looks more intuitive but it makes no difference at all in sound and capabilities I think.
Agreed. I'm playing with it a little more now and get how it works. It just seems less intuitive to me, but maybe that's because I'm used to the protools knobs.

I can see how the current way makes some things quicker eg. "I've got this panned where I want it, i just want it a little wider." But two knobs is better in other ways eg. "That's just about it but I want to bring the right channel in a little."

I also like being able to look at two knobs and be able to tell straight away where its panned.

This is why I think having both options would be perfect!
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Old 12-03-2010, 01:11 AM   #68
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Request for Pan Modes:

Add option to Project Settings to set default Pan Mode per project which we can save as default, of course.
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Old 12-03-2010, 01:32 AM   #69
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Is there going to be a way to adjust the width slider from the Mackie control?
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Old 12-03-2010, 01:48 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro View Post
Request for Pan Modes:

Add option to Project Settings to set default Pan Mode per project which we can save as default, of course.
Yup yup!
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Old 12-03-2010, 02:18 AM   #71
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But which brings further question. First is: why is it that switching the panner to stereo pan mode doesn't actually bring...the stereo pan control up? We have to go hunt into the layout menu for that, and I never, ever in a billion years would have known it was there without seeing it in the video. Even knowing it can be found somewhere, it still took me quite a while to find it.
Answer is : because there is no way you can know which pan mode is selected inside WALTER.
To automatically bring out the width slider, we would need a new predefined scalar variable, something like :
Code:
panmode -- pan mode of the track 0, 1 or 2 (stereo pan).
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Old 12-03-2010, 03:03 AM   #72
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Stereo width is a great option. But why limited to 100%? I expect it to go at least to 200%, so we will be able to get rid of those stereo expanding plugins.
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Old 12-03-2010, 03:24 AM   #73
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I get what you are saying...but thats completely different from simple panning, which is what narrowing of the stereoimage really is

I wouldnt like that...optional is fine though
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Old 12-03-2010, 04:37 AM   #74
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After several hours of testing I must say that I liked the new style pan.
"default and width" is now my default settings. :-)
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Old 12-03-2010, 04:45 AM   #75
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After several hours of testing I must say that I liked the new style pan.
"default and width" is now my default settings. :-)
same here! normal to mono to invert stereo pre pan!! Kewl!!

i quite like it

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Old 12-03-2010, 05:13 AM   #76
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Don't know what to try anymore... How does one get the Stereo Width panner visible? I only have the single regular panner, even if I set the Pan mode to Stereo Pan.
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Old 12-03-2010, 05:23 AM   #77
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Right click the track you want to change, or go to the Trackmenu -> set track layout -> mixer or track-panel -> default + width.

and i agree, its not easy to find right now.
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Old 12-03-2010, 05:37 AM   #78
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Being a simpleton, I would appreciate faders for left and right channels, or a nifty double-thumb combined slider with some link possibilities a lot. It's much easier to read what is done and dial in what I imagine.

The current style might be good and capable, but I find me thinking about adding/substracting one value from another instead of just dialing it in and have a visual representation of channel placement in the fader(s).

I'm afraid I need a sheet with tips on "how to dial in panning situation x" pinned at my wall to handle this fader combo.
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Old 12-03-2010, 06:03 AM   #79
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Quote:
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Right click the track you want to change, or go to the Trackmenu -> set track layout -> mixer or track-panel -> default + width.
Wow, that was hidden! Thanks.

Since the width control doesn't do anything in the other panning modes, it would be intuitive for the width control to appear only when Stereo Pan Mode is set.

I would be okay with the current width implementation, but I agree with Gofer, the "German" panning system might be more intuitive:

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Old 12-03-2010, 08:04 AM   #80
musicbynumbers
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If we can just get one more mode to turn the pan into the left channel and the width into the right then we will have all 3 and a little more too!

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Originally Posted by mrelwood View Post
Wow, that was hidden! Thanks.

Since the width control doesn't do anything in the other panning modes, it would be intuitive for the width control to appear only when Stereo Pan Mode is set.

I would be okay with the current width implementation, but I agree with Gofer, the "German" panning system might be more intuitive:

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