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Old 10-02-2011, 04:10 PM   #281
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Gotcha.
I have this vision in my head of Justin sitting somewhere with a bottle of Gin in his hand, two weeks after he writes area selection, which was a major headache for him to get done, and reading the new FR's (by the same people) for it, to make it better ... and thinking...

"Fuck. If I had any indication at all that they might also want to do *that* with it later, I would have coded the damn thing a completely different way."


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Old 10-02-2011, 04:42 PM   #282
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Let's take a look at what area selection is supposed to do.

When it comes to tracks(not envelopes) Reaper is supposed to treat a selected area pretty much like an item.

Marking any area in the session for:
  • copy (item, envelopes and the space between the envelopes across any number of lanes and tracks)
  • paste (ditto)
  • delete (ditto)
  • nudging (ditto)

  • moving (ditto)
    This is actually one of the great strengths of area selection. Protools handles this with its grabber tool, which is part of the smart tool. It lives in the bottom half of the track in the PT mouse modifier setup. You select with area selection and then get to move or copy stuff as if the entire area selection were one item. For us it's the normal arrow cursor with the move-addon that appears when we are moving an item with the mouse.

  • automation functions whether localized to the selection or across all tracks in the time selection, which area selection is supposed to create

  • Glue
  • Apply FX
  • Render as new take only for wholy selected items, unless Reaper can now incorporate multiple or parts of items in to a new item that then gets a new take
  • Render as Stem to new track.
  • Cursor-based editing via the keyboard
    This is also one of the great strengths. Selection and navigation with the keyboard. PT has a neat set of keys that simply go to the left up to the next item boundary, to the right(ditto), and one command to go up to the previous track and down to the next track. Hold shift and you can select that way. Just like the block mode of some text editors, which is really cool for creating VERY fast crossfades across multiple tracks.


  • ... what else ?




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Old 10-02-2011, 05:41 PM   #283
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That's a good list. It covers all the basics imo.

Inverting the selection(s) may be another thing to think about and what new editing or macro opportunities it might present. It's a bit different from just un-selecting any selected clips and selecting all the other full clips.

How does that actually work now? I mean, if you have a time selection from bar 8 to bar 12, you can't really "invert" the time selection because you can only define one time selection at a time. So that would appear to be something totally new for Reaper... assuming the new are selection was non-contiguous.

The above actually illustrates why (non-contiguous horizontal) area selection exceeds time selection in functionality. You can have multiple "global" vertical time selections at the same time which you can't do with a singular vertical time selection range.
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Old 10-02-2011, 05:45 PM   #284
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PLEASE tell me that area selection and all within this includes Area PROCESSING too like you can pile on fx directly to the waveform and it changes the waveshape too just like Sound Forge or any two track editor?

I thought that was a given, but hope this is included for sfx!!
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Old 10-02-2011, 05:47 PM   #285
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PLEASE tell me that area selection and all within this includes Area PROCESSING too like you can pile on fx directly to the waveform and it changes the waveshape too just like Sound Forge or any two track editor?

I thought that was a given, but hope this is included for sfx!!
As we imagine it it would. You wouldn't see waveforms change in real time though, you'd have to render.

Can't think of anything to add to the list, airon.
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Old 10-02-2011, 05:56 PM   #286
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Just throwing this out there, but does anyone have any major aversion to the idea of area selection snapping to track heights instead of item heights? It would avoid the FIPM mess and fits the envelope lanes better.

It would be a track content selection and editing tool and would affect any overlapping items in a track, instead of item level editing. A little less powerful yes but it may actually be possible where the other option might not be.
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Old 10-02-2011, 06:07 PM   #287
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As we imagine it it would. You wouldn't see waveforms change in real time though, you'd have to render.
what?????

I'm looking for instant updates of the waveform like most editors do! And like Protools

This is a massive FR for me. Why would I want to render? This is the whole reason for area selection and processing. I DON'T want to render anymore on single items. Aargh.
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Old 10-02-2011, 07:07 PM   #288
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what?????

I'm looking for instant updates of the waveform like most editors do! And like Protools

This is a massive FR for me. Why would I want to render? This is the whole reason for area selection and processing. I DON'T want to render anymore on single items. Aargh.
I'm not sure we're getting each other. Area selection should allow you to process an area at once instead of item by item. But that is not going to change the current behavior of not showing the effects of track and item fxs on waveforms. You have to render to see the changed waveform.
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Old 10-02-2011, 07:29 PM   #289
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Just throwing this out there, but does anyone have any major aversion to the idea of area selection snapping to track heights instead of item heights? It would avoid the FIPM mess and fits the envelope lanes better.

It would be a track content selection and editing tool and would affect any overlapping items in a track, instead of item level editing. A little less powerful yes but it may actually be possible where the other option might not be.
That's exactly what I'd expect. FIPM is a special cool feature delimited by the track height at a given time, just like area selection should work, on track heights. I wouldn't ever expect to have tiny selections per item in a FIPM'ed track, it's the whole track height or nothing for me.
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Old 10-02-2011, 07:30 PM   #290
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That's exactly what I'd expect. FIPM is a special cool feature delimited by the track height at a given time, just like area selection should work, on track heights. I wouldn't ever expect to have tiny selections per item in a FIPM'ed track, it's the whole track height or nothing for me.
Yup...
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Old 10-03-2011, 01:01 AM   #291
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I'm not sure we're getting each other. Area selection should allow you to process an area at once instead of item by item. But that is not going to change the current behavior of not showing the effects of track and item fxs on waveforms. You have to render to see the changed waveform.
Right, I was under the impression that Area Selection and Processing would become like a multi-track editor like SF 10 is now, (you can now slip edit and move around regions as well as the area processing)

I was hoping that you could "area select" a part of a single item (audio) and process with an fx, and a small processing box would show and the waveform would be updated?

That would be cool, and possible no?
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Old 10-03-2011, 01:15 AM   #292
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Right, I was under the impression that Area Selection and Processing would become like a multi-track editor like SF 10 is now, (you can now slip edit and move around regions as well as the area processing)

I was hoping that you could "area select" a part of a single item (audio) and process with an fx, and a small processing box would show and the waveform would be updated?

That would be cool, and possible no?
You can kind of do this now; just split the part you want to edit into it's own item, apply the fx as an item fx, and then use "apply fx to selected items." Area selection will make this process a bit easier, but it is unlikely you will be able to apply fxs to selections themselves when area selection arrives, only items and tracks as it currently is.
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Old 10-03-2011, 01:34 AM   #293
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You can kind of do this now; just split the part you want to edit into it's own item, apply the fx as an item fx, and then use "apply fx to selected items." Area selection will make this process a bit easier, but it is unlikely you will be able to apply fxs to selections themselves when area selection arrives, only items and tracks as it currently is.
Yes this splitting and re-rendering is messy and not as intuitive as proper area selection and editing where you can update the file instantly to see what it looks like, a-la PT and Sound forge.

This is disappointing.... but as its Cockos, I maybe wrong and they may go and add stuff as they have in the past to update all this
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Old 10-03-2011, 01:50 AM   #294
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Yes this splitting and re-rendering is messy and not as intuitive as proper area selection and editing where you can update the file instantly to see what it looks like, a-la PT and Sound forge.

This is disappointing.... but as its Cockos, I maybe wrong and they may go and add stuff as they have in the past to update all this
How does it work in PT and Soundforge? Could you give me a short walk through it?
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Old 10-03-2011, 02:01 AM   #295
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How does it work in PT and Soundforge? Could you give me a short walk through it?
Yes its very simple although I have no editing/video software to do a screencap

Basically highlight an area and you can process the waveform directly on the timeline, with fx over and over so your editing the waveform directly

This is soo easy and the only reason that I keep SF around.

There is no version for the Mac (as a million people keep posting around the web asking for a Mac version!) so Cockos could clean up here as Reaper is quite Vegas/Sound Forge orientated already..

The closest thing I can think of is like this video :

http://youtu.be/Xy6rBypEQVs
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Old 10-03-2011, 02:07 AM   #296
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Yes its very simple although I have no editing/video software to do a screencap

Basically highlight an area and you can process the waveform directly on the timeline, with fx over and over so your editing the waveform directly

This is soo easy and the only reason that I keep SF around.

There is no version for the Mac (as a million people keep posting around the web asking for a Mac version!) so Cockos could clean up here as Reaper is quite Vegas/Sound Forge orientated already..

The closest thing I can think of is like this video :

http://youtu.be/Xy6rBypEQVs
Thanks, that is pretty cool.
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Old 10-03-2011, 02:12 AM   #297
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Thanks, that is pretty cool.
Yes this is the way PT has worked for years in a multi-track view and one of the reasons I believe that its the industry standard, as a few years ago every other DAW at the time had to use an ext editor! and then flip back to where you were.

Alot of people use an external editor for single sample editing or processing of sounds easily this way, as many here will agree..

But for Reaper to have this in a full multi-track view with editing and processing like this all on the timeline would be huge with Area Selection!
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Old 10-03-2011, 02:49 AM   #298
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Audiosuite processing. Just doing that to an area looks like a challenge.

Some folks will say, make it work like item-fx. Reaper would need to encapsulate that area(per track) in some item container add the fx to that, then you can decide whether or not to render it to a new resulting item.

Of course Audiosuite processing can do a little more. PT gives you the choice of rendering your entire selection to a new file, to one file per item inside the selection(=glue,render as new take or apply fx in Reaper now) or actually overwrite the original file of the items source audio.

Oh and PT10 will apparently feature configurable handles size on both ends of the selection.

Audiosuite plugins are their own plugin format, and they can change the length of items, so I don't think Reaper will ever do that as it requires a new plugin format to do so. It's not realtime processing, it's offline do-whatever-you-wish-to-the-audio-I-hand-you processing. It has more in common with Xenakios' offline tool than with vst plugins.
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Old 10-03-2011, 02:51 AM   #299
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Audiosuite plugins are their own plugin format, and they can change the length of items, so I don't think Reaper will ever do that as it requires a new plugin format to do so. It's not realtime processing, it's offline do-whatever-you-wish-to-the-audio-I-hand-you processing.
So Sound Forge does this with VST and DX plug ins ok? I don't mind the way this works at all?

Please lets hope this can be done? This is the main thing I'm clinging to Reaper for...
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Old 10-03-2011, 06:15 AM   #300
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You can process selections in Reaper already with a clever macro, so it's possible to do, just need to add that macro as a native action:

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Old 10-03-2011, 06:16 AM   #301
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airon what do you think about area selection being restricted to full track height at all times? So if you have items displayed in lanes, you would be selecting all of them within the track no matter what.

Solves some problems at the expense of a bit of power, but I don't know if those problems can be solved otherwise.

So you couldn't do this:


You'd have to do this:

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Old 10-03-2011, 06:17 AM   #302
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You can process selections in Reaper already with a clever macro, so it's possible to do, just need to add that macro as a native action:

Thats interesting!

I would still like to see it natively to Reaper, but do you have the full "action/macro" for this that you could pass on? - I'm personally useless at programming the actions!
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Old 10-03-2011, 06:20 AM   #303
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Thats interesting!

I would still like to see it natively to Reaper, but do you have the full "action/macro" for this that you could pass on? - I'm personally useless at programming the actions!
Sure! The caveat is that the FX you are applying to the selection have to be on the track. Then you can remove the FX afterwards, or make that part of the macro if you wanted. Not quite as good as audiosuite where you can just open the plugin and apply it wherever you want but it's close.

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Old 10-03-2011, 06:27 AM   #304
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Ok so the data box that i can't quite see, is any fx applied to the selection?
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Old 10-03-2011, 06:32 AM   #305
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Ok so the data box that i can't quite see, is any fx applied to the selection?
In the video I was applying just the volume plugin so the waveform difference would be obvious, any FX will work obviously though. So you just have to add the FX you want to the track, run the macro on the selection, then remove the FX from the track. It's not great but it's something for now.
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Old 10-03-2011, 06:36 AM   #306
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In the video I was applying just the volume plugin so the waveform difference would be obvious, any FX will work obviously though. So you just have to add the FX you want to the track, run the macro on the selection, then remove the FX from the track. It's not great but it's something for now.
Ok thanks, so I guess I could add some actions to that macro to remove the fx so at the end of the process, there are no FX on the track or channel so its clean again, a bit like RTAS just affecting the area only

And so i dont have to keep removing the fx one by one?
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Old 10-03-2011, 06:43 AM   #307
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Ok thanks, so I guess I could add some actions to that macro to remove the fx so at the end of the process, there are no FX on the track or channel so its clean again, a bit like RTAS just affecting the area only

And so i dont have to keep removing the fx one by one?
Correct!
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Old 10-03-2011, 01:10 PM   #308
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Ok thanks, so I guess I could add some actions to that macro to remove the fx so at the end of the process, there are no FX on the track or channel so its clean again, a bit like RTAS just affecting the area only

And so i dont have to keep removing the fx one by one?
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Correct!
How so? The only actions I see for removing effects are ones that remove all fxs, track or item, so you'll have problems using it if you want other effects present.

Either way you still have to add the fx to the track or item to begin with, so we're a ways off from a "tool" that would only process an area in a straightforward way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by airon
Some folks will say, make it work like item-fx. Reaper would need to encapsulate that area(per track) in some item container add the fx to that, then you can decide whether or not to render it to a new resulting item.
What if reaper just applied the processing in one go instead of creating an area to add realtime fx to. That might be possible, no? It'd work kind of like apply fx to item, only you would get an fx chain dialogue box which would take effect pre-track fxs and then disappear after the rendering. Or is this basically what you mean?

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Old 10-03-2011, 01:12 PM   #309
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So Sound Forge does this with VST and DX plug ins ok? I don't mind the way this works at all?

Please lets hope this can be done? This is the main thing I'm clinging to Reaper for...
Soundforge had a couple of functions like that, such as Pitch Bend, which did performed a resample across the selection according to the curve you made. One of the niftiest design tools I ever had. For Protools Audiosuite that would be the stuff by Wavemechanics iirc.

Xenakios is making an offline tool that does things like that. Hourglass. I think using either Hourglass or Soundforge as an external editor is pretty good that way. The rest, well perhaps Cockos will have some good ideas on what you can throw at area selections in the future, and plugins won't be the only thing we can throw at a selection or item that way, to generate new audio.

Maybe a new class of JS plugins just for offline processing like this.
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Old 10-03-2011, 02:12 PM   #310
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Xenakios is making an offline tool that does things like that. Hourglass. I think using either Hourglass or Soundforge as an external editor is pretty good that way.
Well, using external apps to perform processings can be a decent solution but it all depends on various factors. Maybe someone is doing some sound design/composition where creating pitch bend processed sounds is 90% of the work. Would they want to launch and use an external app for each sound needed (there could be hundrends or thousands of sounds needed) instead of doing it all inside Reaper? (Note I am not speaking of the pitch shifting that is possible with the take pitch envelopes, but varispeed/resampled processing which the take envelopes don't do.)

Anyway this thing really isn't about just the area selection thing anymore, but would be a separate topic about offline (or similarly acting) processing tools integrated into Reaper...
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Old 10-03-2011, 02:15 PM   #311
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Well, using external apps to perform processings can be a decent solution but it all depends on various factors. Maybe someone is doing some sound design/composition where creating pitch bend processed sounds is 90% of the work. Would they want to launch and use an external app for each sound needed (there could be hundrends or thousands of sounds needed) instead of doing it all inside Reaper? (Note I am not speaking of the pitch shifting that is possible with the take pitch envelopes, but varispeed/resampled processing which the take envelopes don't do.)

Anyway this thing really isn't about just the area selection thing anymore, but would be a separate topic about offline (or similarly acting) processing tools integrated into Reaper...
Agree totally with this, and why i thought this was included for processing like PT and Sound Forge does?

If I had alot of sounds in a project that I really wanted to mangle and effect against say a video, would i really want to open ALL the sounds in a seperate editor and guess how they sound/sit against the project?

Agree about new offline processing of plug ins intergrated into reaper as a quick natural solution alongside area selection.
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Old 12-04-2011, 09:47 AM   #312
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Well, using external apps to perform processings can be a decent solution but it all depends on various factors. Maybe someone is doing some sound design/composition where creating pitch bend processed sounds is 90% of the work. Would they want to launch and use an external app for each sound needed (there could be hundrends or thousands of sounds needed) instead of doing it all inside Reaper? (Note I am not speaking of the pitch shifting that is possible with the take pitch envelopes, but varispeed/resampled processing which the take envelopes don't do.)...
Agree 100%..

Also the same with inline editing, processing and Area Selection - I don't want to have to open an ext editor to edit directly, maybe tens of little files and add fx and update the waveforms.

This i think is why its needed. I lose the the flow if I keep flipping back and forth between an editor.

Reaper is so close I can't believe this has been left off.

Here's hoping its a Xmas present from Cockos I am looking at PT10 for an all in one editor, processor and DAW for editing in the timeline, (It still can't touch Reaper though but secretly hoping that if Cockos do this to v4, that I'd end up laughing at PT as Reaper would do this and more! So i won't need it...
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Old 12-04-2011, 06:25 PM   #313
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Maybe they'll get something interesting going for both their own ideas and many other plugin authors when Celemony releases their new Audio Random Access plugin architecture that builds on VST.

Just supporting that architecture could open up a few doors for very cool future ideas.
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"My ego comes pre-shrunk" - Randy Thom
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