Old 02-02-2011, 09:51 PM   #1
koolkeys
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Default An unfortunate feeling

I've slowly, but surely, liked Reaper more and more. It took a while to get me over to the dark side. Not always pleasant, and not without conflict. It still happens, for some bizarre reason.

But I am a fan. I like Reaper, and I'm excited about version 4.

I've enjoyed having tools available like custom actions, armable buttons, WALTER, multiple dockers, and other features as they are added.

I think Reaper is solid in the MIDI department, very good clip editing, great in 64-bit, and the menu and toolbar customization is top notch.

I see things like ReaStream, JS plug-ins, 64-bit wrapping of Rewire, and other features, and I can't help but see the power and potential in Reaper. I could almost even put aside the features it doesn't have that I would like or need to use it full-time. The good far outweighs the bad.

Great program, absolutely no doubt in my mind.

But........

For whatever reason, when I use Reaper, I always feel like I'm using an incomplete host. I feel like potential has been squashed in some areas, and I feel like something is missing.

It's not even about the workflow, necessarily. But I just feel like I'm using a host that is at all times "under construction", even if I'm not using a beta.

If I were to put it in the most simple words, I would say that Reaper is unrefined. Not in every area, but in many It saddens me that things like inline MIDI and user interface are stuck at 80%. I would like to say that the inline MIDI helps keep the juices going during that creative moment as it has been known to do elsewhere, but it just frustrates me.

I would like to say that because of the extreme customization available in the interface that it rocks my socks off. But it feels like something is missing. I feel like some things aren't as fluid and as smooth as they could be. It's almost like it lacks that "solid" touch when moving things around. And seeing default Windows backgrounds on some panels like the browser and such, just makes it feel incomplete.

This is a common feeling around Reaper for me. Many rough edges. And while no host is perfect, I don't seem to get the same feeling quite as often in some other hosts. Even Studio One, which severely lacks in features compared to Reaper, just feels solid, refined, and very polished. Other hosts have the same affect.

Now, I want to be very clear. Reaper remains, for me, above most other hosts. I CHOOSE to use it above many other hosts out there, and I own or have tried most all of them. For my dollar, Reaper holds it's own in the market. But I use it primarily for a utility tool and testing tool. And it's EXCELLENT at this.

So I'm curious if I'm alone on this? I'm aware that some people do complete productions, start to finish, of the highest level working in Reaper. My beef isn't with what it's capable of doing, but just with the feel while doing it.

I don't plan on leaving Reaper, and I don't really intend to trash it. But I would be curious to know if anyone out there agrees with me? I'm not really looking for people to tell me "I love it, best host I've tried, etc." as those posts are kind of missing my point. I'm aware it is that way for many. But I'm looking to see if somebody 'gets' what I'm trying to say.

Does that all make sense? Am I crazy? Am I being unfair?

Curious to your thoughts!

Brent
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Old 02-02-2011, 09:57 PM   #2
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Though your post makes sense and your questions are valid I think this is not the area of Forums for such discussion.
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Old 02-02-2011, 10:01 PM   #3
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Though your post makes sense and your questions are valid I think this is not the area of Forums for such discussion.
Sorry, I posted it here because I happen to be using the beta and mentioned a couple of beta features. Also, part of my "fear" is that some things in the current beta will be left at a point just shy of being great, which obviously could change, but happened during the V3 beta for me.

Didn't know if I should post it elsewhere?

If it needs moved, I understand.

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Old 02-02-2011, 10:08 PM   #4
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I sympathize with you on this front.

but I do use reaper as an all inclusive DAW. Not only utility.

I do get what you are saying though. seems like everything is 98 percent done.

the boys at cockos have a great thing going. and it has, I believe th potential to become solidified with what you speak of.

I think V4 is a step in the right direction( and I think the betas will help with things like docker etc.

using OS default backgrounds is unfortunate. I get out of them as soon as possible(docking tools with default windows backgrounds destroys a good theme. Its like cleaning your house and throwing a full trash bag in the middle of the living room.)

As I have FRs and nitpicks,sure,but I still will choose reaper over others Ive gone with. It almost seems to me, Reaper is like a new house that has yet to have furniture or a paint job. It does what it supposed to perfectly, but it does not give that home feeling.


Ben


Edit: just read mercado's post

I can agree with this, but what about the 'does reaper sound more analog' thread, is that somehow more relevant? or appropriate? I think a number of slapstick/humorous threads pass through, but I do think this is relevant, as it does pertain to reaper development.

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Old 02-02-2011, 10:33 PM   #5
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I can agree with this, but what about the 'does reaper sound more analog' thread, is that somehow more relevant? or appropriate? I think a number of slapstick/humorous threads pass through, but I do think this is relevant, as it does pertain to reaper development.
In anticipation of a new thread full of vague ideas and comments I'd like to suggest to all posters to give full detail on what they see/miss, be specific, that's the only way to make something good out of a discussion like this. Saying 'it feels like an incomplete host' isn't really helpful for developers. Please elaborate and discern.
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Old 02-02-2011, 10:33 PM   #6
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At the end of the day, Reaper is just Reaper and the same applies for Pro Tools, Reason, Cubase etc. all of them have something that the other one does not. But one thing I do know is that the developers are constantly upgrading this sequencer. With that said who knows what reaper is going to be like two years from now. Considering that you can customize this sequencer and vst’s can compensate for what reaper lacks. I don’t feel held back and my workflow has never been better in any other sequencer and like yourself, I have tried them all. It boils down to preference and what you’re willing to settle for.

Reaper 4 is pulling a rabbit out a hat. I’ve tried the Alpha, Really nice feel to it. I can’t ask for anything more based upon what it’s capable of and the direction it’s going. If it’s not everything you expected as of right now. Wait till reaper 4 is available in its full version it may sort out what you’re looking for. What they’re saying is there’s a big midi overhaul on its way.
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Old 02-02-2011, 10:35 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro View Post
In anticipation of a new thread full of vague ideas and comments I'd like to suggest to all posters to give full detail on what they see/miss, be specific, that's the only way to make something good out of a discussion like this. Saying 'it feels like an incomplete host' isn't really helpful for developers. Please elaborate and discern.
good point
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Old 02-02-2011, 10:35 PM   #8
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As I have FRs and nitpicks,sure,but I still will choose reaper over others Ive gone with. It almost seems to me, Reaper is like a new house that has yet to have furniture or a paint job. It does what it supposed to perfectly, but it does not give that home feeling.
That's a great way of looking at it. Kind of like a big house with lots of rooms, but with some holes in the wall, debris in the pool, scratches on the floor, and windows that let a little too much air inside.

Sure, you can live there, cook there, sleep there, and everything else you do in a house. But it's not necessarily the most comfortable "home like" environment.

I hate having to compare it to other hosts, but it's one thing I like about the development process of other hosts. You may not get as much per update, but what you get is often much more finished. Maybe for the better, maybe for the worse. But again, it's not about the features themselves. It's about the feeling of using the program.

Maybe it's an unfortunate side-effect of the development process? I don't know.

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Old 02-02-2011, 10:37 PM   #9
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Does that all make sense? Am I crazy? Am I being unfair?

Curious to your thoughts!
I think your points are valid and I agree with them to an extent, but it really doesn't bother me as much.

Personally, I really like the 'bleeding edgeness' of Reaper and I'm happy to have the full feature set we have now with some quirks and a slight 'unrefined' feel (which will be polished in time) instead of a reduced feature set of totally 'refined' features...

I assume there'll be a fair bit of polishing once R4 hits beta, so why not compile a list of things you feel need attention, how they could be improved and start a thread within that positive framework?

The devs have obviously been working their asses off, and we're still in alpha, so people should cut them some slack.

When we hit R4 beta/RC might be a more appropriate time for a 'finishing touches' discussion...
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Old 02-02-2011, 10:38 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro View Post
In anticipation of a new thread full of vague ideas and comments I'd like to suggest to all posters to give full detail on what they see/miss, be specific, that's the only way to make something good out of a discussion like this. Saying 'it feels like an incomplete host' isn't really helpful for developers. Please elaborate and discern.
Sorry, though my statements were general, I tried to give at least a couple of details. Though definitely not enough. It may be good for me to list a few little things that perhaps contribute to this.

Unfortunately, some of it is unknown as well. Sometimes, I FEEL like a feature should be great, but it doesn't actually come across that way. Sometimes, I can point it out right away, and other times, I can't put my finger on it.

Regardless, I'll try and make another post soon with more specifics. Good point.

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Old 02-02-2011, 10:41 PM   #11
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I think your points are valid and I agree with them to an extent, but it really doesn't bother me as much.

Personally, I really like the 'bleeding edgeness' of Reaper and I'm happy to have the full feature set we have now with some quirks and a slight 'unrefined' feel (which will be polished in time) instead of a reduced feature set of totally 'refined' features...
Well, I would tend to agree. That's what I thought back in the Reaper 3 beta cycle. Just give it time, and things will change. But for many things, they didn't.

My worry is that so much gets added that going back and refining everything is going to be as much work as rewriting the program. I would hate to see a program that is so worried about keeping up and giving fast updates, but misses the point in these areas.

I won't comment on whether Reaper is more full featured than another host or not. But I do think that some of the most powerful hosts out there have shown that you CAN refine features AND have a full feature set.

And please don't misunderstand. NO host is completely refined or finished in my opinion. They all have flaws. This isn't meant to make it seem like that's not the case.

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Old 02-02-2011, 10:56 PM   #12
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I like that Reaper is always under construction. It's the Burj Dubai tower of DAWs. Other DAWs are "finished" at a given release, and you have to whine about bugs and wait until they deem you worthy to buy the next edition. With Reaper, there's a new feature or fix practically every week.
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Old 02-02-2011, 11:02 PM   #13
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I like that Reaper is always under construction. It's the Burj Dubai tower of DAWs. Other DAWs are "finished" at a given release, and you have to whine about bugs and wait until they deem you worthy to buy the next edition. With Reaper, there's a new feature or fix practically every week.
Yes, but not much in terms of refinement. Which was why I started this thread.

I've had good luck with software, and the hosts I use are relatively stable across the board for me. Including Reaper. So for the sake of this conversation, I'm not really talking about bugs.

But what I think could potentially happen is that as new features are added so often, if they continue this pace, Reaper will become a cluttered, bloated mess(for lack of a better term, though no clear definition of bloated is being used here). Many people feel that Reaper is already bloated in some ways.

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Old 02-02-2011, 11:14 PM   #14
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But what I think could potentially happen is that as new features are added so often, if they continue this pace, Reaper will become a cluttered, bloated mess(for lack of a better term, though no clear definition of bloated is being used here). Many people feel that Reaper is already bloated in some ways.
One man's bloat is another man's most wanted feature. Bloat to me is when new features start slowing down the program (i.e. it takes 2x as long to start) or when the installer size is measured in GB instead of megabytes. Reaper is complex, but in my opinion it's the least bloated of the major DAWs (by a long shot).

There's always a risk that when the program reaches a sufficient complexity it could become unmanageable, but only Cockos knows when that point is reached.

Can you imagine if it was still just Justin and Christophe trying to do it all?

I trust they know what they're doing and if it becomes too much to handle, they'll bring another member to the development team. Schwa's don't come along every day.
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Old 02-02-2011, 11:20 PM   #15
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here's a short list of things that make I find make things somewhat clunky:

1. always having to click on different screens to get actions to work again -

2. screensets recalling random configs and crashing on recall

3. preview in media explorer action and project bay button only opens the ME, doesn't actually select the file

4. UNDO - absolutely is horrendous on my system


anyway, those are the four main flow killers that I encounter at least 1 every 5 minutes - at least - It is still alpha so I'm not freaking, though I hope they get sorted out eventually. As usual, I always pipe up for these threads, just to make sure these issues don;t get swpt under the rug
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Old 02-02-2011, 11:26 PM   #16
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I always get one feeling when using Reaper, and i know a lot of people et the same feeling, that being the feeling that the devs get excited and then move on too soon, kind of "That's a cool idea, here's a quick version we did" but then it never gets finished.

It has always felt that way, but if you work around that you can get a lot of things done in it.
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Old 02-02-2011, 11:34 PM   #17
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I'm down with the 'I like that it's always under construction' crowd....

I have spent my time with the 'polished' bunch... where you get remakes and new features once a year and pay yer ass off for them and still don't get what you wanted.. albeit that it 'looks' polished....

I love the ever changing development and the flow between dev's and users with Reaper... for me, she's a keeper.

Is there more I want to see happen... you bet. Bring it on!
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Old 02-02-2011, 11:36 PM   #18
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One man's bloat is another man's most wanted feature. Bloat to me is when new features start slowing down the program (i.e. it takes 2x as long to start) or when the installer size is measured in GB instead of megabytes. Reaper is complex, but in my opinion it's the least bloated of the major DAWs (by a long shot).
I agree that one man's bloat is another man's most wanted feature. I've often defended bundled content that comes with some hosts because I know that some people really do like it, especially those getting started.

I don't put much weight into startup times personally, as I only start up the program once or twice a day. It all depends how well the program runs when doing operations. And disk space is not an issue either, for me. Nor do I think disk space means much in terms of performance these days.

So what is "bloated"? I don't know. Ask ten people and you'll get ten different answers(I've tried, even here, lol!). But I don't think this has as much to do with bloat really as it does with refinement. You can have the leanest, meanest program on the planet and still have the worst refined program. I think bloat and refinement are possibly very separate in this instance.

Quote:
There's always a risk that when the program reaches a sufficient complexity it could become unmanageable, but only Cockos knows when that point is reached.
Absolutely. The problem is this though; at what point does the fast feature train give way to the it's-too-much-work-to-go-back-and-refine train? I would hate to see them add every feature that some hosts have out there, but stay with the same unfinished feel(which again, is not with everything in the program, just certain areas)? I don't know the answer. As you said, only the devs know how much work something will be, and what is a priority.

I would LOVE to have the big features from other major hosts inside of Reaper. I have a long FR list for Reaper. But I would rather they be ignored in favor of some cleanup. But that's just me.

With everything being said, I'll still use Reaper. It may even be my main host some day(almost happened recently, but some issues got in the way). And I'll watch development with excitement, even getting excited when new features are added like everyone else! Just hoping for a tad bit of cleanup along the way!

I'll stop now as I don't want this thread to be taken in the wrong way. It's merely for discussion, which has been great so far! Thanks!

Brent
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Old 02-03-2011, 12:00 AM   #19
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koolkeys, I am with you on many points. And you're not alone since this has been discussed a lot in the past.

Unfortunately, this is presumably a byproduct of Cockos way of doing things. Those guys probably do it for fun most of all. They are not tied to maximizing profits or expanding the user base just for the sake of it. I bet they would suffer cold sweats if you made them focus on a single feature, and make it all 100% complete, and not work on anything else in the meantime.

Reaper really is a kid wearing big clothes. (And by 'kid', I am referring to the size of the development team.)

Don't be fooled, it's really only a handful of skilled programmers behind this. And they've been working on this almost non-stop for years. We just need to adjust our expectations on some aspects of the software, and reap the benefits we get on others. And Reaper excels in many.
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Old 02-03-2011, 01:27 AM   #20
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edited ............
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Old 02-03-2011, 01:28 AM   #21
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Yeah, I wouldn't call it the best looking interface around, but then again the daw world isn't the prettiest bunch. And at least we have themes so the community has some recourse in the case that the interface is just terrible.

My main gripe would be the lack of refinement in dialog windows and such. Like the FX browser or IO dialog, they just feel so raw, so much so that they sort of feel disconnected from the app, like you've dropped into the basement or some area you're not supposed to be in. Which is fine for me, I mean the app is so stable and functional that I can't complain, but I wouldn't mind some icing on that cake by way of a slick interface. And honestly, I would like to see wider acceptance of Reaper in general to ensure the future of the software and you don't win many people over with windows 95 dialog boxes. I have a background in computers so I can navigate apps like Reaper without much trouble, but a lot of engineers and producers need that Apple simplicity I think.

A good example would be this Cubase 6 quantize panel:



It feels like more integrated, not like some tacked on feature with parameters confusingly jumbled around in a box (for example, the I/O dialog in reaper is pretty messy by comparison)

Kontakt (or any other NI product) is a good example of the UI being all-encompassing. Here's an example of an options dialog:



It's part of Kontakt, and it looks the part. Even their file browser is skinned:



whereas in Reaper it's just the old Windows explorer gui embedded, which looks and feels clunky.

It could be argued that leaving some dialogs and views to the OS to handle makes more sense and is potentially more functional (the user already knows how to interact with them, and a lot of the heavy lifting as far as UX development has been done already) but there's something to be said for a the deep gui experience. In Reaper, I feel like only the surface is glossed over, once you go a level deep, you see the sort of "unfinished" areas that I think the OP may have been referring to.

That said, Sonar/X1 was exactly the same, with most dialogs/browsers/etc. being rendered in the plain old Windows style so it's nothing new to me. What is new to me is the fact that Reaper is rock solid, intelligently designed, and works.

Btw, using New Hostel theme and it's pretty good.

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Old 02-03-2011, 02:01 AM   #22
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Maybe it's an unfortunate side-effect of the development process? I don't know.
I think that's part of it at least. Because the team is small and dynamic they'll most always create smart, inventive and solid solutions to problems because it's the only way it can be done really.

But the flip side is they don't have a bunch of devs hanging around to throw on the project in beta to polish stuff up or finalize things totally. The big companies can do that. But then their implementations shows that it's done by muscle force rather than inventiveness or craftsmanship.

Personally I prefer the REAPER way but I really see your point.
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Old 02-03-2011, 02:02 AM   #23
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When I first discovered REAPER, I also had the initial feeling that I was using an "incomplete host". Having used demos of half a dozen competitors in the DAW world, I've discovered that for me, it all comes down to the interface and most importantly the file size. It is indeed as odd as it sounds. The software that was several hundred megabytes and had a flashy GUI felt more stable even after several minutes of use. I speak for myself when I say that it's just a mental thing.

The alpha versions of 4 are looking very solid and although we all like a bit of eye-candy here and there, it's become a non-issue for me. I've been playing around with version 4 these past few days and although I don't have the means to record at the moment, I will definitely be getting myself a license when 4 goes final.
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Old 02-03-2011, 02:22 AM   #24
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speaking personally, i could care less how sleek things look, it's the small flow killers that are "almost" bugs, though are more like loose ends that I have to use numerous workarounds for.

I mean, it's all good here, no complaints, though for me the polish isn't in the look, it's in all the small idiosyncrasies that end up requiring extra mouse clicks for tedious functions, and a certain "disconnected" that all the windows have as far as actions and thier working across the board in all windows -

for example - once the project bay is in focus, the main window has to be re-clicked in order for keyboard input to trigger actions - what PITA! (no offense). Only after clicking outside of the PB is the keyboard enagaged again - this is an absolute flow killer

(I realize once the PB is in focus, the keyboard input goes to it for alphabetical selection, though to me the use of actions far outweighs the need for alphabetical selection, especially when there is already a filter)

anyway blah blah blah, i must be grumpy or seomthing

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Old 02-03-2011, 03:00 AM   #25
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I think this thread raises a pretty interesting philosophical point.

Most DAWS are at pains to hide the gubbins that resides within, but because of the open development process and the direct discourse with the Reaper pixies we have all been allowed "behind the curtain". Once you've done that you can never again get back to that safe cosy place of blissful ignorance.

Reaper is Arnie's Terminator with his face half off, most other DAWs are a beautifully turned out prom queen with a bad home life.

Give me Reaper any day of the week.
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Old 02-03-2011, 03:22 AM   #26
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Reaper is Arnie's Terminator with his face half off, most other DAWs are a beautifully turned out prom queen with a bad home life.
Spot on. Come with me if you want to live!
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Old 02-03-2011, 03:36 AM   #27
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i think i get what you mean, Brent..

..and basically i agree.
here is an example:

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=62028

an awesome feature thats abandoned at 50% or less. i use it everyday, and it 'fails' everyday. so many small addons that arent finished yet, so many rough edges. sometimes im really surprised that i still use it as is, sometimes i wonder if i could use any other apps for the given job (answer is NO mostly).

Reaper is weird in many ways - maybe thats why i love it?..
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Old 02-03-2011, 03:50 AM   #28
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Those guys probably do it for fun most of all. They are not tied to maximizing profits or expanding the user base just for the sake of it. I bet they would suffer cold sweats if you made them focus on a single feature, and make it all 100% complete, and not work on anything else in the meantime.


Don't be fooled, it's really only a handful of skilled programmers behind this. And they've been working on this almost non-stop for years...

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I think that's part of it at least. Because the team is small and dynamic they'll most always create smart, inventive and solid solutions to problems because it's the only way it can be done really.

But the flip side is they don't have a bunch of devs hanging around to throw on the project in beta to polish stuff up or finalize things totally. The big companies can do that. But then their implementations shows that it's done by muscle force rather than inventiveness or craftsmanship.
This makes a lot of sense. With all the amazing and creative things these guys have on their 'to do' list, as well as the incessant barrage of feature requests, the relatively inconsequential stuff that constitutes 'polish', naturally gets pushed down the list.

Does anyone have an idea of how big the development team is for other major DAWs? I'm sure they have people working full-time on all that.

Coding is likely as much of a creative release for them as creating music is for many of us (not that they don't do that too!), but it would be a bit having to change guitar strings, tune, intonate, align the tape machine, burn backups and organize our sample libraries when all we want to do is make a new song.

I've never been part of a development team, but undoubtedly part of the reason they are so productive and prolific is because they have the relative freedom to do what they're motivated to do, rather being dictated to by project managers and the marketing department...
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Old 02-03-2011, 03:57 AM   #29
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see, i have a slightly different problem. it's really hard for me to get excited about reaper now because it already does most of the stuff i want. i record/mix/do heaps of midi with it on huge projects, and it just works. i don't miss a lot of the requests that keep popping up (particularly midi), and when those things do get implemented they don't really help my workflow at all.

i just want a nice clean, efficient GUI and i'm happy. i guess i'd most like the GUI to feel more consistent throughout - if that can come through for v4, that'd be great.

having said that, there is HEAPS of stuff i would like to have there. but it's already in the issue tracker etc, eventually some of those things will get implemented maybe. whatever. it's not my role to boss the devs around because i want some random feature. i gave them fifty bucks a couple of years ago, i've got my money's worth and i'll happily upgrade when v4 comes out.

none of that is going to stop me writing and mixing songs in the meantime though.
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Old 02-03-2011, 04:02 AM   #30
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Having had to use many other daws in my day to day work I love being able to come home to the one that actually does what I want with the least amount of bugs I know of and when there is a bug it mostly gets fixed straight away

Reaper is not for everyone but for the people it fits it fits like an old warm jumper!

Nothing quite like it in ethics or diplomacy and I don't have to wait years for features I don't want.

Reaper works best I feel for people who have been around the block and can appreciate it for what it is. A Swiss army knife for power users.
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Old 02-03-2011, 04:05 AM   #31
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I had that feeling when I first tried it, still have in certain occasions but when all cons and pros add up it certainly seems it`s the best daw for me amongst others I have tried (or extensively googled .) I know that with time it will get better, needed features will be added and most bugs will get fixed, no doubt about that...
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Old 02-03-2011, 04:17 AM   #32
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Does anyone have an idea of how big the development team is for other major DAWs? I'm sure they have people working full-time on all that.
The team behind Presonus Studio One...

http://www.presonussoftware.com/en_U...d=company-team

6 people... Double the Cockos team (not counting the Cockos theme people)

I am certain the other big DAWs have even larger development teams.
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Old 02-03-2011, 04:17 AM   #33
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I think this thread raises a pretty interesting philosophical point.

Most DAWS are at pains to hide the gubbins that resides within, but because of the open development process and the direct discourse with the Reaper pixies we have all been allowed "behind the curtain". Once you've done that you can never again get back to that safe cosy place of blissful ignorance.

Reaper is Arnie's Terminator with his face half off, most other DAWs are a beautifully turned out prom queen with a bad home life.

Give me Reaper any day of the week.
Although that's a precise analogy, I believe koolkeys and others feel the same frustration as I do, and that, sometimes, ignorance is a bliss. The ´incompleteness´ sensation is what is making me crazy in Reaper. To be honest, lately I spend more time in the forum waiting to see what's the new feature than in the program itself. Yes, it's in alpha stage, but I expected some concepts to be refined in 4 from the start, mostly MIDI concepts. In my opinion, what you can do with audio in Reaper is much better than any other DAW already. But MIDI is lacking so many refinements I could not stand to wait, I've ended buying Cubase, which is the benchmark in MIDI features in my opinion and everyone should unashamedly copy their approach. MIDI CC's and keyswitching handling is near perfect.

For instance, try handling keyswitches in Reaper. It's raw and unpolished, note names are one of the things that transmit this incompleteness sensation: it could have been, but it stopped where it was and it was insufficient. And CC's being noncontinuous: it's almost there, lots of improvements in CC's handling in the last months, to be honest, but then it's ´almost´ there.

The Walter thing is other thing that drives me crazy. Not that is isn't great concept and it's great to be able to customize your view, but this must have taken quite some work to be implemented and I think these man hours are to be missed in other areas of development. I can't help feeling that Reaper is for geeks, and although I can get deeper in programming, making music is my thing, and I haven't been making enough music, even with Reaper 3. I had to learn quickly how to make scripts in Python to have a minimally functional working freeze and unfreeze functions. It took me at least one week without making music. Once I worked in a studio with Cubase, making music was straightforward and constant. Apart from all traditional complaints of Cubase user in forums and all around that Steinberg doesn't listen to their user base, I sit in front of it and simply make music and it's all there, so I was so much more productive with C5 that I had to buy it yesterday to work at home.

I wasn't coming here to talk about it, but this thread just made me want to describe my recent experience. I'll miss a lot of Reaper's functions, and eventually will use it, as I have the license. But I can't go on with Reaper alone anymore. I believe in a few months Reaper will be so much better I'll come back to it exclusively. And I strongly believe that in some years, in this development pace, it'll be so much better than other DAWs that there'll be no discussion. But or the moment, I feel like koolkeys, not that it's incomplete, but Reaper feels incomplete to me and I'm leaving for a moment.

And it's not a rant, these are words that come out of frustration of not being able to handle the development approach of Reaper. I think everyone is fantastic here, the devs and the community. But I have to remove the ´pre-release´ page as my start page (much before the start of v4 alpha stage, I must say) and put it in the ´check eventually´ folder again.
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Old 02-03-2011, 04:27 AM   #34
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Like my dad used to say "A poor man blames his tools!"

But yes, Reaper is still years behind other daws like Steinberg is what... going on 25 years or something?

To me is what's going to get the job DONE! So far, Reaper is working well for me. I cut like the old days. I use midi and audio like a 24 track tape machine which (back in the day) you couldn't do anything like you can with daws today! So for me... I have little to complain about. I like the way I can edit the midi (grab a note and see the velocity level and edit) and adjust notes, move them around etc.

However, my one gripe (as some of you may know) is the the way the audio doesn't follow the tempo as well like in Cubase. In Cubase I can use their Tempo Track and make it look like a crazy day at the stock market and still the audio will follow the tempo and stay in tune. You CAN accomplish this in reaper to some degree... however you still have to manually re-adjust the audio time line when using tempo change markers, but you SHOULD be able to automate the playrate slider in the transport and then move the envelopes around with the audio following perfectly and staying in time and in tune.

Now to me... THIS is the most wanted feature since when I cut tracks I cut everything non quantized and play everything live. Usually first the keys, then bass, then cut the drums etc. (IMHO) this sounds more LIVE, like a real band. With that being said... I do use the tempo change markers in Reaper to gradually slow and gradually speed up like a live band gets excited and moment builds. At least for now it's better than nothing.


To hear and see what I'm talking about, go to this thread and post #12 http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=73448 There you will see pics and hear demos.

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Old 02-03-2011, 04:46 AM   #35
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I hope(d) back in 2004 that Reaper could become the DAW of inovative features although most of them optional besides the firm and classic features.
Of course I am nobody in that DAW field nor in the music production. Still I believe I will finish my ideas on paper so to be available to discuss.

Some of them I already have posted here.

I still think other DAWs are "packed" in a way thus forcing the user to think of them as completed and as a single product.

REAPER is my tool for recording. Just that. I hardly do any mixes, masterings or whatever. I just record my ideas and that is it.
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Old 02-03-2011, 04:54 AM   #36
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Obviously everyone here has their own features they want in but to say it's miles behind cubase (when I sold Nuendo for reaper) isn't accurate. There are some things reaper's MIDI does that most don't and things it does not as well. CCs are not accurately displayed unless done as separate none interpolated events, I think that's a fair reason why they are like this in reaper (not that it won't change)

Can we also appreciate reaper's price for just one second too

Ands it's age.

Spend some years on any other forum too ands you'll really come to appreciate reaper lol

Lastly, yes it doesn't have freeze yet but I personally hate freeze and prefer apply track fx to new take and then offline the tracks fx. But each to his own
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Old 02-03-2011, 05:03 AM   #37
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as to the OP...meh. I am making music and using "pro" level tools and I spent a fraction of the cost that I would on a "refined" host. Horses for courses and all that...
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Old 02-03-2011, 05:09 AM   #38
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It is the development process. Not that I'm complaining about it, but it takes a paradigm shift for the user to feel "comfortable".

I would say that Reaper feels incomplete only because the developers haven't made any CONCRETE choices for workflow. Instead they are trying to be uber-customizable. The problem with allowing the user to COMPLETELY define their workflow is that it takes A LOT of effort on the users part.

This effort is not needed as much is other products simply because there is no possibility of them being "perfect", so we move on with our lives, adopt their workflow, and make music.

Instead, people spend days/weeks customizing, only to have it feel incomplete because the feature they need for the perfect workflow either hasn't been implemented (but maybe next week so check back), or is just too much work to get to.

I believe Reaper will always "feel" incomplete (even though it's not) because it has the most potential to be perfect, and the closer to perfection anything is... the more acutely we see it's flaws.

I LOVE REAPER!
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Old 02-03-2011, 05:51 AM   #39
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Obviously everyone here has their own features they want in but to say it's miles behind cubase (when I sold Nuendo for reaper) isn't accurate. There are some things reaper's MIDI does that most don't and things it does not as well.
If you are referring to what I said above musicbynumbers, I never said it was "Miles behind" Cubase... but instead said that
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"Reaper is still years behind other daws"
In other words... Reaper has not had as much time to develop as other daws so you can't compare apple with oranges. Reaper is Reaper and is still developing (as all daws should). That's all

And to compare them to other companies who have been around for 25 years, well... there so much Reaper DOES do and (IMHO) has developed so much in such a short period of time. I think it does everything I want EXCEPT the whole "tempo and audio syncing and tuning thingy."
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Old 02-03-2011, 05:56 AM   #40
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so we move on with our lives, adopt their workflow, and make music.
+1,000,000

I don't do this as a hobby but as my profession. If Reaper works for you then use it.
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