v5.0pre5c - January 11 2015

[Lawrence]

That very, very old method of selecting, copy and pasting things, essentially moving around as if you're in a text editor(copy,down,paste here) is something I quite miss. It took a little experimentation to find out how to do what Scott did in the video, but I did it. And it shouldn't be THAT hard IMHO.

Yep. With area selection you don't have to literally copy and paste anything with CTL + C or V, or even select any automation nodes. You just draw a range and duplicate it or mod copy drag it anywhere else, even to another track. It really should be that easy and it treats everything (clips and automation and anything else) exactly the same so there's consistency to editing.



That method, using an edit mask, is as old as the oldest graphic application. But that conversation is about 7 years old here so, likely not on the table. they chose the Vegas time selection method and that probably won't be changing.

[Mercado_Negro]

Originally Posted by airon

Those actions sound like they'd be so easy to do.

Copying automation lanes sounds interesting. CTRL+drag an envelope panel to another track, and if the parameter exists, copy it.

This little snippet of video shows a nice, fast way of copying envelope sections, though again you'd need a more clever way to display envelopes if you do not want to have new lanes popping up. That very, very old method of selecting, copy and pasting things, essentially moving around as if you're in a text editor(copy,down,paste here) is something I quite miss. It took a little experimentation to find out how to do what Scott did in the video, but I did it. And it shouldn't be THAT hard IMHO.

Would you agree that something that looks like area selection works best for selection of data across multiple envelope lanes ?

Rearrangement of lanes, sure. Who wouldn't like that. The envelope name is also not optimal to me. The plugin name could very well be in another row above the actual parameter name. I need to see the parameter name, because I probably already know which plugin it belongs to, so that information has priority to me for detail edits.


Or how about interpolating automation states(straight line will do) between START and END of a time selection, and perhaps use the track selection as well.

Probably a lot more stuff in that department. Track trim is just another one of those little things to me actually. Tiny but very useful when you need it.

Area selection would definitely put an end to many editing faults in REAPER and it must be really hard for devs to implement it because they would've done that already some time ago. The lack of area selection is what makes that "text editor" workflow very difficult.

I must admit that I feel silly when I just automated a passage (5 or 7 tracks at the same time) and that very same passage is latter on the project and I have to go selecting points with a "time selection" lane by lane instead of just seleting them all, paste and move on. It feels very prehistoric to me and so basic that I get frustated every time I have to do some heavy automation work in REAPER. It pisses me off tremendously that I can't select points on different lanes and copy them to another track (even for the same FX on both). This is pure and basic editing, something that should be as user-friendly as possible.

I can't leave REAPER, I'm too used to it and it does things that other applications don't do but the lack of area selection and basic editing features that would help us tremendously every day really frustrate me a lot and I've even considered a switch but like I said, when I put things in a balance it is something that I can't just do.

[Win Conway]

I wouldnt just put the global ideal of area selection on the ability to copy paste multi lane automation, automation items would allow that too, so it isnt just an area selection fix, i am fairly sure everybodies pet FR can be roped in as a saviour for whatever fault Reaper has.

[Mercado_Negro]

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

I wouldnt just put the global ideal of area selection on the ability to copy paste multi lane automation, automation items would allow that too, so it isnt just an area selection fix, i am fairly sure everybodies pet FR can be roped in as a saviour for whatever fault Reaper has.

Area selection would fix many editing faults in one go while automation items would tackle only one area which is automation. It's the most requested feature for a reason (many see it from their perspective solving their problems in one or another area).

[Shan]

Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro

Area selection would definitely put an end to many editing faults in REAPER and it must be really hard for devs to implement it because they would've done that already some time ago.

The elevated FR for this is over 5 years old now. I concluded also that it has to be quite the challenge for the devs to implement, or we would've had it years ago. I'm still optimistic we'll eventually see it at some point.

Shane

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro

Area selection would fix many editing faults in one go while automation items would tackle only one area which is automation. It's the most requested feature for a reason (many see it from their perspective solving their problems in one or another area).

Right. It quite literally covers everything that gets edited on the timeline, media, automation, video tracks, whatever, so it's not for any particular group, it's for everyone. If basic area selection - a fundamental editing method in use in probably 99% of all modern media applications - is viewed as a "pet FR" by the developers, there really is no hope for it.

The only two apps that I personally even know of that don't use it for media are Reaper and Vegas. That should speak volumes.

If we get automation clips, range selection will work better for editing those also.

[Tom@Metro]

Originally Posted by Shan

The elevated FR for this is over 5 years old now. I concluded also that it has to be quite the challenge for the devs to implement, or we would've had it years ago. I'm still optimistic we'll eventually see it at some point.

Shane

Area selection... Oh yea. A big +1

[Win Conway]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

Right. It quite literally covers everything that gets edited on the timeline, media, automation, video tracks, whatever, so it's not for any particular group, it's for everyone. If basic area selection - a fundamental editing method in use in probably 99% of all modern media applications - is viewed as a "pet FR" by the developers, there really is no hope for it.

The only two apps that I personally even know of that don't use it for media are Reaper and Vegas. That should speak volumes.

If we get automation clips, range selection will work better for editing those also.

Wait, when did they make me a developer, i was the one that called it a pet FR, don't try to put words in the developers mouth that came out of mine, i know you like to think you are the master of passive agressive, but that is near enough straight up lying I SAID IT, NOT ANY DEVELOPERS

[Lawrence]

You're reading way too much into that comment. Or reading it wrong.

The key word in that particular sentence was the first word, "If", as in ...

"... if the developers also feel that same way" that might explain why it still lingers, if they also view it as just another pet FR and not something a good bit more than that. I never said they - did - feel that way.

I was surprised to hear that anyone feels that way about that particular thing so I was just expanding on that thought. I was not lying on anyone, i was only wondering - if - that's why it lingers, - if - maybe they feel the same way, that it's just another random pet FR.

[Win Conway]

Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro

Area selection would fix many editing faults in one go while automation items would tackle only one area which is automation. It's the most requested feature for a reason (many see it from their perspective solving their problems in one or another area).

Aaaah right, i seem to miss the part where i said that area selection wouldnt fix faults that you have with Reaper, its the most requested feature in the FR tracker, from five years ago, an FR tracker that pretty much nobody takes any notice of anymore and nearly all the votes where from five years ago, there you go, now i have given your ammunition and you can insinuate that i said it wasnt the most popular feature request, something neither of us knows by the way, you have no idea what requests Cockos gets via email,post,telephone,carrier pigeon.

And now you can see exactly why i called it a pet FR, even though mr passive agressive got....wait sorry...didnt get annoyed by me saying that, because like it or not it is just an FR that YOU want, the other people who voted all that time ago could have even moved on, at least i'm honest, I personally want automation items, my pet FR

[Mercado_Negro]

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

Aaaah right, i seem to miss the part where i said that area selection wouldnt fix faults that you have with Reaper, its the most requested feature in the FR tracker, from five years ago, an FR tracker that pretty much nobody takes any notice of anymore and nearly all the votes where from five years ago, there you go, now i have given your ammunition and you can insinuate that i said it wasnt the most popular feature request, something neither of us knows by the way, you have no idea what requests Cockos gets via email,post,telephone,carrier pigeon.

And now you can see exactly why i called it a pet FR, even though mr passive agressive got....wait sorry...didnt get annoyed by me saying that, because like it or not it is just an FR that YOU want, the other people who voted all that time ago could have even moved on, at least i'm honest, I personally want automation items, my pet FR

lol what happened there, man? You read it all wrong lol I based my reply on the issue tracker and several threads/posts all over the place in forums. I couldn't possible know if Cockos get way more requests about something else, you're right but I'm talking about what I see on forums (which isn't even a smal percentage of what the real REAPER userbase is, I suspect). I'm just saying that many people want it because it would solve problems on many areas and each one problably votes or mentions it because it would help them on one or a few of these areas. Automation items is a great feature, I can see myself using it A LOT, bro! But basic stuff should be solved first, I think; and to implement or "fix" this basic stuff we need area selection... or how do you think we could select several points on different envelope lanes if we can't select different parts of our projects? (just to mention one example).

[Win Conway]

With automation items you obviously can select whatever and however and as many items as you like,area select not needed, that is not the point however, the point is that a bunch of people are now stating as fact that 'blah' request is most requested, and i know best cause im a pro, unfortunately you did right after i had put somebody back on ignore i should have never took back off.
NON OF US KNOW THE MOST POPULAR REQUESTS, end of story, as far as we know a frikkin dancing animation of a manga character is the biggest request (has happened before)
So sorry if i was harsh but what i said i stand by

[Mercado_Negro]

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

With automation items you obviously can select whatever and however and as many items as you like,area select not needed, that is not the point however, the point is that a bunch of people are now stating as fact that 'blah' request is most requested, and i know best cause im a pro, unfortunately you did right after i had put somebody back on ignore i should have never took back off.
NON OF US KNOW THE MOST POPULAR REQUESTS, end of story, as far as we know a frikkin dancing animation of a manga character is the biggest request (has happened before)
So sorry if i was harsh but what i said i stand by

lol the manga thingie was in FLStudio IIRC... that was epic I'd like one in REAPER but dancing naked to make clients pay, no hesitation lol

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

NON OF US KNOW THE MOST POPULAR REQUESTS, end of story, as far as we know a frikkin dancing animation of a manga character is the biggest request (has happened before)

You said this below just a few short days ago. How do you know that nobody asked for x if you don't know the requests coming into email and other ways and nobody here knows that?

"...a lot of Reaper goes without maintenance, while new features that nobody asked for get implemented."

[Win Conway]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

You said this below just a few short days ago. How do you know that nobody asked for x if you don't know the requests coming into email and other ways and nobody here knows that?

Wow, you didn't even start with "Not trying to cause trouble" or any other tripe, i was referencing a feature the devs told us nobody asked for (Fade editor) although i am not petty enough to go and find the quote, but feel free haha

[Marcin Szwajcer]

Oh that is good! Definitely time saving feature! Funny thing is that moving regions makes globaly exactly that but with all tracks, lanes and just as a MOVE not COPY so it isn't impossible.

[musicbynumbers]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

Yep. With area selection you don't have to literally copy and paste anything with CTL + C or V, or even select any automation nodes. You just draw a range and duplicate it or mod copy drag it anywhere else, even to another track. It really should be that easy and it treats everything (clips and automation and anything else) exactly the same so there's consistency to editing.



That method, using an edit mask, is as old as the oldest graphic application. But that conversation is about 7 years old here so, likely not on the table. they chose the Vegas time selection method and that probably won't be changing.

yes please!

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by gpunk_w

I was referencing a feature the devs told us nobody asked for (Fade editor)

The request below is from 2009.

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...ight=crossfade

[Win Conway]

Well done Lawrence, i bow to your superior knowledge

[Lawrence]

No superior knowledge, I just searched the FR board.

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

But that's the thing ... it doesn't have to be, which is of course why you said 'in most cases', even though I'm not sure that's actually mostly the case. More often than not (from what I've seen anyway) it's an option whether to actually show the Trim offset or not.

Not sure if you understand what I meant.

I was talking about a situation where you have automation written and you now want to trim it using a fader. The default option in Pro Tools is to record that trim automation and combine it with the original as soon as you stop playing the track. I believe there's an option (I've never used it) to keep it separate until you want to combine them. I was just saying that most people don't need to have two (or more) envelopes. They just want to be able to trim the first one. Do you disagree?

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by airon

That's really hard, going back to that concept of not know how this works. Do you test your video lessons on folks ?

No. Not really. Actually, I'm not really very smart. At least not close to as smart as you guys in this pre-release forum. So it's easier to think of myself as a beginner. Plus, I forget a lot jumping between 3 different DAWs a day so often do have to re-learn how things work in Reaper.

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by Shan

A proper Trim mode is something I really wish we had. I find it very essential and useful.

Shane

Do you think people would miss the Trim mode we have now?

Or a proper Trim Mode could replace it? Rather than add to it?

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

Not sure if you understand what I meant.

I was talking about a situation where you have automation written and you now want to trim it using a fader. The default option in Pro Tools is to record that trim automation and combine it with the original as soon as you stop playing the track. I believe there's an option (I've never used it) to keep it separate until you want to combine them. I was just saying that most people don't need to have two (or more) envelopes. They just want to be able to trim the first one. Do you disagree?

I agree with that, that most use cases probably don't ever need to see that second envelope.

The only reason to not have it auto-combine is for easier editing if you plan to manually edit the trim later, because (at least in Nuendo) the edit layers are separate and you can make wide selection edits of only the trim nodes or only the original envelope nodes. But if you don't plan to maybe edit it later, it has no immediate practical use, the second envelope.

So yes, I agree. Thanks Kenny.

Cubendo's Trim is actually 3 envelopes. Give me a minute and I'll post a graphic of it.

[Lawrence]

Here it is below (Nuendo) and as you suggest, it can maybe be a little visually confusing if you don't know what you're looking at.

The dark red part there is the actual level. The dimmed peak there is the original part before it was modified by the Trim and the red envelope is the Trim, which is kinda Global in that you can physically move that entire envelope, or parts of it, to trim things manually.

So below, because it's currently in Trim mode, the edit layer is the Trim envelope.



When you go out of Trim mode the edit layer moves back to the original envelope, but still shows the other two (optionally).



It can all be confusing for some so like you say, optionally switching it to not do that just shows the end result and not any of the other stuff...

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

The only reason to not have it auto-combine is for easier editing if you plan to manually edit the trim later, because (at least in Nuendo) the edit layers are separate and you can make wide selection edits of only the trim nodes or only the original envelope nodes. But if you don't plan to maybe edit it later, it has no immediate practical use, the second envelope.

Pro Tools also has that second envelope called Trim. So yes. I like having a second envelope. I just don't like to write to it separately. But it's great for manually drawing automation so I wouldn't eliminate it.

But it doesn't negate using auto-combine (as you called it). Is till tweak that envelope even though auto-combine is on.

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

It can all be confusing for some so like you say, optionally switching it to not do that just shows the end result and not any of the other stuff...

Pro Tools also shows all of them and it can be confusing but I'm OK with that as long as auto-combine is possible or a default. Writing envelopes on top of each other really feels to be a pro option.

[Lawrence]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

Pro Tools also has that second envelope called Trim. So yes. I like having a second envelope. I just don't like to write to it separately. But it's great for manually drawing automation so I wouldn't eliminate it.

But it doesn't negate using auto-combine (as you called it). Is till tweak that envelope even though auto-combine is on.

Agree. "Auto Combine" is just the term Nuendo uses. You can optionally set it to auto-combine those ...

- When you punch out of recording trim automation... (you always see it when recording trim but it disappears or coalesces or whatever as soon as you punch out) or...
- When you leave Trim mode... same as above but only when you switch back to Read or switch Trim off or whatever ...or...
- Just leave it all there and manually combine it all later whenever you want.

It always plays back the same in all cases, the options are just for the visuals, so you really don't have to ever combine those if you prefer to always see it all, or just set it to never leave any of that other stuff visible. Of course, leaving it visible leaves a clear visual reference of where you trimmed in case you later decide to tweak some of that, and only that.

I should add, this is one place where software is better than some hardware consoles, that you can see and touch all that stuff on the screen. That's why (in some other related ways) the d8b was also so good at automation because it had a monitor connected to it and you could actually see and also manually edit all of that stuff with the mouse which is maybe a little harder on some digital consoles that don't have a UI like that. The d8b's automation editor screen was great.

[Shan]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

Do you think people would miss the Trim mode we have now?

Or a proper Trim Mode could replace it? Rather than add to it?

I can only speak for myself, but I'd replace it. That said, the REAPER paradigm has usually been about choice in most cases. Either way, a proper Trim mode is something I hope we'll see in version 5.

Shane

[WyattRice]

Hope I'm not off topic here, but I've mentioned this before. Would VCA or could VCA allow something like this.

Select two tracks that have envelopes, and have both envelopes move at the same time?

Here's an attempt at an animated gif to illustrate.

[Banned]

Originally Posted by WyattRice

Hope I'm not off topic here, but I've mentioned this before. Would VCA or could VCA allow something like this.

Select two tracks that have envelopes, and have both envelopes move at the same time?

Yes, but in a different way: you'd create a third ("VCA master") track and make both other tracks 'slaves' to it, then adjust the fader / automation envelope of the VCA master track.

[Mercado_Negro]

Originally Posted by WyattRice

Hope I'm not off topic here, but I've mentioned this before. Would VCA or could VCA allow something like this.

Select two tracks that have envelopes, and have both envelopes move at the same time?

Here's an attempt at an animated gif to illustrate.

Another task that area selection would solve easily. You can do it like Banned explained, though.

[Kenny Gioia]

I didn't realize (til now) that we don't have "edit grouping" in Reaper. I guess VCA would be a nice workaround.

[Shan]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

I didn't realize (til now) that we don't have "edit grouping" in Reaper. I guess VCA would be a nice workaround.

It's a 5+ year old Elevated FR. Please vote.

Shane

[Banned]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

I didn't realize (til now) that we don't have "edit grouping" in Reaper. I guess VCA would be a nice workaround.

... but only for (some) track parameters. If you're trying to do the same thing for plug-in parameters, you're still screwed.

[PitchSlap]

Originally Posted by Lawrence

Yep. With area selection you don't have to literally copy and paste anything with CTL + C or V, or even select any automation nodes. You just draw a range and duplicate it or mod copy drag it anywhere else, even to another track. It really should be that easy and it treats everything (clips and automation and anything else) exactly the same so there's consistency to editing.

Thanks for this. I've seen the constant request for area selection here for years but was never exactly sure what it was.

You can now add me the choir. This is FAR, FAR superior in my opinion, and would make editing in Reaper so much smoother.

There's been a few pleasant surprises in 5 already, so hopefully this will be another one.

[Fergler]

Originally Posted by PitchSlap

Thanks for this. I've seen the constant request for area selection here for years but was never exactly sure what it was.

You can now add me the choir. This is FAR, FAR superior in my opinion, and would make editing in Reaper so much smoother.

There's been a few pleasant surprises in 5 already, so hopefully this will be another one.

This applies to audio and MIDI items, also. Go check out the FR http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=122 it's heavenly to think of all the uses of that

Also, if that were implemented, I imagine similar code would end up in use for something like Logic's Quick Swipe take comping

[airon]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

Do you think people would miss the Trim mode we have now?

Or a proper Trim Mode could replace it? Rather than add to it?

Trim/Read is quite usefull as a separate entity to beginning DAW users, as long as it cannot be confused with anything else.

The Trim/Write option that we are requesting might just need a proper name to make it an easy concept to grasp.

Trim/Write only works on envelopes. Perhaps "Trim-Env", "Trim/Env" or "Trim/VolumeEnv" is a good description, which can be shortened to "Trim/Env" on the GUI.

On the other hand, Trim/Read could be called Trim/Static.

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by airon

Trim/Read is quite usefull as a separate entity to beginning DAW users, as long as it cannot be confused with anything else.

I actually found it quite confusing for new users as it's really easy to be in another mode and NOT realize that there's another volume control involved that can't be seen. I would think it would be important to keep it in the program just to keep previous projects in tact and to keep previous users happy if they've built it into their workflow.

Really, the biggest difference from how it works in PT is that it's a temp setting. As soon as you take it out of Read/Trim, the Trim goes away. Unless you tell it to be applied and then it changes the envelope to reflect that change.

Originally Posted by airon

Trim/Write only works on envelopes. Perhaps "Trim-Env", "Trim/Env" or "Trim/VolumeEnv" is a good description, which can be shortened to "Trim/Env" on the GUI.

On the other hand, Trim/Read could be called Trim/Static.

I like Trim/Static for those who want that but I would consider it a "tweaker" option.

My big issue with this is how easy it is to change things after you've finalized your mix. For example, in Pro Tools, when you're happy with your mix, you can put everything into Read mode. See all the levels happening and have no fear that you can accidently bump a fader and lose your mix. You can still grab faders but they go back to their position when you let go.

Also, we would need Trim to be combined with all of the other write functions (write, touch, latch) to get the most out of it.