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Old 03-12-2008, 05:07 AM   #1
merge
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Default Sound quality of Reaper

Hi all,

I have been moving sessions and files between my systems with SSL Pro Convert today. One thing I noticed, along with two other engineers sitting in today, is that if we took a single wav file and played it in each DAW there were quite markedly different playback qualities between them. I used the same hardware and clock for all the DAWs and I would clearly rate Samplitude 10 as the best, Cubase 4 and Reaper as a distant 2/3rd. Both Cubase and Reaper mess with the sound in a bad way. i.e. Cubase sounds like a high quality MP3(lossy)while Reaper sounds harsh in the top end.
We all thought that although Reaper has many great features it will stay a low end DAW solution until it can serve up some quality sound playback capability.

Best,
merge
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Old 03-12-2008, 05:14 AM   #2
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user error

seriously, you need to set up your preferences correctly

DAWs don't have a sound. They do math.

now, go troll somewhere else
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Old 03-12-2008, 05:16 AM   #3
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ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhh
will these stupid "this daw sounds better than that" ever stop ???????? 1+1 = 2 and nothing in the world will change this (at least in our current dimension )
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Old 03-12-2008, 05:21 AM   #4
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It's so fucking retarded. Sound of Daw people should have a special forum built for them at Gear Sluts and they should be confined there to argue with each other.
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Old 03-12-2008, 05:36 AM   #5
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but wait!
he and two other engineers all heard a difference!
and they were using pro convert!

++1 Pilot Error.

they null.
like I wish these threads would.



.t
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Old 03-12-2008, 08:26 AM   #6
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Use this:



The top end is incredible with these...You'll look even more pro.
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Old 08-12-2008, 01:08 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aldi View Post
ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhh
will these stupid "this daw sounds better than that" ever stop ???????? 1+1 = 2 and nothing in the world will change this (at least in our current dimension )
You just did... 1+1 just can't equal 2.... 1+1=0butnotif1isnotfollowedbythenext01101sequence, enter.

Last edited by Zee; 08-12-2008 at 01:14 AM.
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Old 08-12-2008, 01:58 AM   #8
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first off, I can barely hear my audio 'cos the literally screaming cooler fans of my daw :-((

ditto,....let's start a little blind test where people vote what the better "audio processing" between two identically programmed vst plugins with different graphic interfaces...

I guess even the pros could be easily misleaded...

cheers
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Old 03-12-2008, 02:52 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merge View Post
One thing I noticed, along with two other engineers sitting in today, is that if we took a single wav file and played it in each DAW there were quite markedly different playback qualities between them.
probably you're just hearing differences in volume. the ear has a different EQ curve at higher levels of loudness (look up fletcher munsen curves in google), and some DAWs may have a different default volume for new tracks.

if you're not applying fx or timestretching there is no way any of those DAWs would sound different playing back through the same hardware. pan laws might be different though but that wouldn't affect a single stereo wav file.
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Old 03-12-2008, 03:41 PM   #10
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Hi guys,

thanks for your input. It is clear to most who work prefessionally in the audio world that each DAW's mix buss has a unique audio engine performance and therefore effect on the quality of sound reproduction.

There is no user error in this testing process. The same wav file that was tracked into Merging Pyramix 6 was used without conversion and played back as a single wav file in each DAW at 88.2k with the same external HEDD 192 convertors using the same external clock. Oh, and the apps were running side by side so that there were direct comparisons available within a moment of reassigning the ASIO driver.

Before you start flaming with irrational comments maybe go try some real testing yourself. We have available to us in the studio Pyramix 6, Protools HD, Cubendo 4, Sampquoia and Reaper and have tested each DAW extensively under numerous configurations.

Best,
merge

Last edited by merge; 03-12-2008 at 03:47 PM.
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Old 03-12-2008, 03:55 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merge View Post

Before you start flaming with irrational comments maybe go try some real testing yourself.
Check this out:
http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13473

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Old 03-12-2008, 04:27 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merge View Post
Hi guys,

thanks for your input. It is clear to most who work prefessionally in the audio world that each DAW's mix buss has a unique audio engine performance and therefore effect on the quality of sound reproduction.
I used to think that. I was totally convinced that ProTools sounded like **$$*$ and Samplitude was awesome.

Reading about this, and listening to the 3D audio Inc great sum-bus comparison revealed that I totally imagined it. To my surprise, i was able to get both PT and Samp to null. So, it was probably Samp's plugins (nice, double precision etc) that won the day against the rather old PT mix2 system, but the basic bus output totally nulled between the two. This was a bit of a shock to me, because, coming from analog, I expected in my head that the two systems would absolutely have to sound different.

Now though, I just don't get the 'mix bus' business. There is only one way you can add two numbers: with an add operation. IF you have enough headroom to preserve the result (which will be a longer word length than the source material) with all bits intact -- nearly all modern DAWs do (PT uses carefull gain scaling to keep the result in a double precision integer) then no detail is going to get lost.

That's it. The upshot of all this for me is that, if the basic engineering quality is there, it's down to differences in how the gui makes you use the program and how that gets reflected in your sound.

Damn. I've just added to this stuff, haven't i..
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Old 03-12-2008, 04:39 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merge View Post
It is clear to most who work prefessionally in the audio world that each DAW's mix buss has a unique audio engine performance and therefore effect on the quality of sound reproduction. ....... We have available to us in the studio Pyramix 6, Protools HD, Cubendo 4, Sampquoia and Reaper and have tested each DAW extensively under numerous configurations.

owning expensiv studio equipment doesn't make a professional. knowing your bussiness and stuff does it. so please go and learn a littlebit about DAW's on computers. it isn't the same as an integrated hardware system where the sound of A/D converters come to play. and it's really sad to see, that you are maybe right with the statement "most who work professional..effect on the quality of sound.". too good, that i can mix my stuff myself and don't have to trust a wannebe pro engineer.
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Old 03-13-2008, 05:26 AM   #14
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Thanks Aldi, you are clearly improving the debate on professional audio... I'll leave you guys to enjoy ITB mixing lol!
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Old 03-13-2008, 06:29 AM   #15
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priceless.

Dear Reaperites,

I, and my professional engineer colleagues, while conferencing in my professional laptop studio situated conveniently under the stairs of my mother's basement, noticed dreadful audio degradation whilst importing files into Reaper. I said to the professional audio engineer seated to my right, "I say, Monty, Reaper sounds like buttocks!" "Jolly right" responded Frederick, the professional audio engineer standing to my left, wearing a look of whimsical disdain. So, I said, "We're all agreed, then, it's Samplitude for Pros!" With professional responsibility weighing mightily on our minds we reluctantly logged onto the Reaper forum to pass judgement on this unfortunate and misguided entrance into the world of professional audio. And so, we professional audio engineers leave you sad collection of ragtag amateurs to it. God speed and Cheerio!

Merge, Professional Audio Engineer

------
I'm seriously upset because when I think "Pro" the name "Merge" was always at the top of my list.

Sad.

Just sad.

All the sunshine is gone from my audio world.

The daisies aren't as pretty now, for me.

The sky is a shade more dull.

Oh, woe is me.

But wait! Perhaps it's not too late for me to run across the meadow and embrace Samplitude!

I too will be a Pro!

Adieu, Reaper!
------
seriously, merge, you don't know what you're talking about
http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13473

Last edited by ieso; 03-13-2008 at 08:34 AM.
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Old 03-13-2008, 08:03 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merge View Post
Hi all,........We all thought that although Reaper has many great features it will stay a low end DAW solution..........
Hey merge, whats your name on the Samplitude Pro forum?
Are you posting your results there too ? I'm sure Samdev will be pleased to hear these results.

Interesting you use the name "Sampquoia" - that is pretty much insider language!
Did you think Reaper users would know what that means?

See you there then!

.

Last edited by maa; 03-13-2008 at 08:12 AM. Reason: Sampquoia
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Old 03-30-2008, 05:24 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merge View Post
There is no user error in this testing process. The same wav file that was tracked into Merging Pyramix 6 was used without conversion and played back as a single wav file in each DAW at 88.2k with the same external HEDD 192 convertors using the same external clock. Oh, and the apps were running side by side so that there were direct comparisons available within a moment of reassigning the ASIO driver.
So wait, it's a single wav file, and each app sounds different? This is mind boggling, as there's no mixing actually happening, it's simply streaming to the output.

Also, may I suggest that "there is no user error in this testing process" is completely ridiculous! Clearly there is no KNOWN user error, but to proclaim that there was no error in the process, without a full examination of that process, is a bit unrealistic.

For example, if you tested some complex mixing arrangement with different apps, and all of them to NULL completely, then I think it might be OK to say "there are no apparent user errors", however even in those instances user error was possible--

When you have utterly inconclusive, unquantifiable results, proclaiming that there was no user error is completely meaningless.

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Old 04-09-2008, 07:36 PM   #18
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Quote:
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So wait, it's a single wav file, and each app sounds different? This is mind boggling, as there's no mixing actually happening
-Justin
He's not talking about the actual mix engine but the Mix Engine (TM)

It's pro jargon. We're not supposed to know about this stuff.

Sssssssssssh
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Old 04-16-2008, 03:55 PM   #19
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i'm not sure what "sampquia" is ,...

but dear lord.
everyone jumped on this dudes back pretty hard. ,..not that i didn't laugh at a lot of these posts but.... you all lack souls. lol

anyway,
just wondering what sampquiaiasoso is or whatnot?
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Old 04-13-2009, 07:48 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merge View Post
Hi guys,

thanks for your input. It is clear to most who work prefessionally in the audio world that each DAW's mix buss has a unique audio engine performance and therefore effect on the quality of sound reproduction.

There is no user error in this testing process. The same wav file that was tracked into Merging Pyramix 6 was used without conversion and played back as a single wav file in each DAW at 88.2k with the same external HEDD 192 convertors using the same external clock. Oh, and the apps were running side by side so that there were direct comparisons available within a moment of reassigning the ASIO driver.

Before you start flaming with irrational comments maybe go try some real testing yourself. We have available to us in the studio Pyramix 6, Protools HD, Cubendo 4, Sampquoia and Reaper and have tested each DAW extensively under numerous configurations.

Best,
merge
Great. Go use samplitude and quit bothering us.
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Old 04-13-2009, 08:11 AM   #21
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I think the consortium of audio software makers should make an emergency meeting to announce the world, once and for all, that software and hardware mixing are two different beasts. If a type of resistor or capacitor can deeply affect the sound that goes through it, a digital "+" sign does precise math, be it on a Mac, on Linux, on Windows 3.1 or whatever.

The differences between DAWs are numerous and important, but the mythical "audio engine (tm)" is bullshit. Using the "audio engine (tm)" improvement as a marketing gimmick is bullshit, and people doing this should hang themselves for dumbing down the audio community.
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Old 04-13-2009, 11:26 AM   #22
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I think the consortium of audio software makers should make an emergency meeting to announce the world, once and for all, that software and hardware mixing are two different beasts. If a type of resistor or capacitor can deeply affect the sound that goes through it, a digital "+" sign does precise math, be it on a Mac, on Linux, on Windows 3.1 or whatever.

The differences between DAWs are numerous and important, but the mythical "audio engine (tm)" is bullshit. Using the "audio engine (tm)" improvement as a marketing gimmick is bullshit, and people doing this should hang themselves for dumbing down the audio community.
What's mythical (and a much more pernicious form of dumbing down) is the idea that software and hardware, or analog and digital, processing are somehow inherently different - this is nonsense. Digital is capable of approaching some ideals (especially with regard to filter performance) more closely (and cheaply) than analog, and some problems are much easier to solve digitally, but that doesn't change the fact that engineering compromises are still involved. See my (long) post above for details about aspects of mixing that can differ between computing platforms.

I really don't see why there's an objection to the term "audio engine" either. What term would you prefer when referring to the real-time mixing core of a software multitracker? Attempting to dismiss discussion on this by trivialising the theoretical possibility of oversights in critical code doesn't clarify anything. Although I strongly doubt that REAPER suffers from such oversights, I wouldn't dare dismiss the possibility out of hand.

For instance, did you know that the default FPU rounding mode in some compilers (e.g. MS Visual C++) is "towards zero"? That's the worst possible choice for audio because it produces zero-crossing distortion, yet none of us can say for certain that any one DAW overrides this with a more sensible choice because we can't see the code.
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Old 03-29-2008, 08:43 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by merge View Post
...if we took a single wav file and played it in each DAW there were quite markedly different playback qualities between them.

Sorry to rehash this, i was a bit slow of the mark with this one.


Just to be sure, i downloaded the Sam10 demo and used ReaRoute to play back a single wav file into Reaper and recorded it.

When i nulled the recorded file against the original, the result was a wav with max and min values of zero... a completely empty file. I did the same with Reaper into Reaper and got the same results.

This proves that the output is identical to the original wav from both DAWs.

Any percieved differences are likely unconscious prejudice.
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Old 08-12-2008, 06:51 AM   #24
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Default DAW's Have No Sound

DAW's compute different things in different ways (for example, there is more than one panning law) but basically no DAW has a better sound than another.

By the way, how do I start a new thread? I want to discuss MIDI routing for a new program call Algomusic Atomic within Reaper.

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Old 08-12-2008, 07:06 AM   #25
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whydidthisthreadgetresurrectedagaincantwejustletit diealreadyalsopleasepassthehasbrownsthankyoubye
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Old 08-12-2008, 08:01 AM   #26
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Here you go Chris P!:

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Old 08-12-2008, 11:05 AM   #27
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Here you go Chris P!:

Thanks bro.

"nom, nom, nom..."
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Old 08-12-2008, 11:14 AM   #28
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Hi Justin

If you ever are interested in comments (positive and constructive ones) on the sound engine that a lot of people could offer (while a damn lot just can't), I'd suggest creating a thread for it where kids wouldn't be allowed to post jokes and potato pictures....

In the meantime, I'll stay away from such non-sense.

Good luck with the project

Respect.
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Old 08-12-2008, 11:17 AM   #29
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I guess you're also staying away from the point that bit for bit accuracy (as in total null) means identical. Or perhaps you have a qualified source you can cite to refute this basic, well-known principle?
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Old 08-12-2008, 11:18 AM   #30
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Hi Justin

If you ever are interested in comments (positive and constructive ones) on the sound engine that a lot of people could offer (while a damn lot just can't), I'd suggest creating a thread for it where kids wouldn't be allowed to post jokes and potato pictures....

In the meantime, I'll stay away from such non-sense.

Good luck with the project

Respect.
I suggest you participate in the NUMEROUS threads @ SEVERAL forums including this one and argue your point there.
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Old 08-12-2008, 12:40 PM   #31
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Though it is hard to find where I live, I do love a good game of Twister.
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Old 11-30-2009, 03:14 PM   #32
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I bet you have the air in your tires changed twice a year too
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Old 12-01-2009, 06:37 PM   #33
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I put new tires on my car AND I got a new 23" LCD display. ALL my mixes sound better now.

It's scientific proof.

D

PS Oh yeah... have the tires nitrogen filled. Add's 'sparkle' and 'depth' to your mixes. Honest.
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Old 11-12-2012, 06:41 PM   #34
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Default need help with bakground noise

hi all
i am vvv new to all this and already have a problem.

i have a recording of a meeting and need to isolate one voice from all the bakground noise

the meeting took place in a pub with the football on in the background

i am struggling to minute this meeting.
brand new job and struggling please help
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:42 AM   #35
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hi all
i am vvv new to all this and already have a problem.

i have a recording of a meeting and need to isolate one voice from all the bakground noise

the meeting took place in a pub with the football on in the background

i am struggling to minute this meeting.
brand new job and struggling please help
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Old 11-13-2012, 06:02 AM   #36
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hi all
i am vvv new to all this and already have a problem.

i have a recording of a meeting and need to isolate one voice from all the bakground noise

the meeting took place in a pub with the football on in the background

i am struggling to minute this meeting.
brand new job and struggling please help
My advice: use equalisation to make the target voices as intelligible as possible (by minimising cochlear masking of the elements you're trying to hear) and listen carefully on good-quality headphones at a medium-to-high volume to make sure you catch all the nuances of the sound.

My experience is that noise reduction simply does not work in this situation. The best you can manage is to reduce the noise floor by 12 dB MAXIMUM to eliminate the distracting effect, but, despite several attempts at using NR on speech, I've never once improved intelligibility, and often made it far worse. As anyone who's used an analog cordless phone will attest, gating (which is the active operation in noise-reduction plugins) chops out the quietest parts of the signal close to the noise floor, and this rapidly murders intelligibility of speech despite being more aesthetically pleasing.

As far as I can tell, the human brain is supremely optimised for filtering and understanding speech, and no DSP software can even come close. Used well, NR plugins can make recordings sound "better", but will hardly ever improve intelligibility of voices.
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Old 05-18-2009, 05:45 AM   #37
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but we still can enjoy new york escorts...
The only way I can new york asian escort think to explain it is that we're very adaptable - under critical listening new york escort conditions, with training, and with repeat listening to the same material, we're capable of 4
new york asian escorts approaching the abilities you attributed to dogs and cats - a lot of our listening process, especially in music, is adaptation and prediction.
I can not confirm that Reaper sounds better with 4 New York Asian escorts, but my perception of sound might be compromised enough to make me believe that it does.
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Old 05-18-2009, 12:15 PM   #38
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Time to warm up some more Hashbrowns, I see.

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Old 05-21-2009, 07:36 AM   #39
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Default Ok, ok - they null.. I´m convinced.

Well ok, i understood that the different digital summing engines nulled when everything was set at unity.

I also have samp and always thought that it sounded "smoother" than reaper when I mixed with it. Always believed it was how the programs handled effects differently. So i set out a test today.

8 same identical wav.files at unity in both reap and samp AND a sonitus compressor with the same preset on resp. masterbuses - very hard compression btw. Well damn, I thought, if not samp sounds smoother anyway, when the plug was crushing this hard. So I rendered them both at 24bit, with no dither.

Listened to them in mediaplayer and found the samp a bit smoother.

BUT, loading them into reaper, and phase reversing one of the files - COMPLETE null (-inf.)! Nothing, there was nothing! Did the same thing in samp, same-same..

I have no proof to upload, you have to take my word for it.
So, goodbye summing-anxiety and extensive reading of discussions on this topic. It feels like I have wasted precious time, well now off to make some music instead.
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Old 05-21-2009, 08:46 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by mr jkn View Post
It feels like I have wasted precious time, well now off to make some music instead.
We done told ya.
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