Old 09-13-2006, 09:53 AM   #1
sinkmusic
Human being with feelings
 
sinkmusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: decepticon mothership in a hidden place inside a mountain
Posts: 3,423
Default setting the correct tempo

I would like to make a song from an improvisation i recorded recently, using a drum machine.
So i have a big file (2 minutes or so), playing at an unknown tempo...
I would like to build my song around this track, add melodies and beats, but how to make it sync to reaper ?
I mean : when i use small loops, it is easy to time-stretch it, when i have a whole song, byut that i already know the tempo, it is also easy, but i have tried many ways, i can't make it sync...
Any hints or advices ?
sinkmusic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2006, 11:12 AM   #2
RedStone
Human being with feelings
 
RedStone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 410
Default

Is it 4/4? if not, it might be difficult to get the right bpm
But, you could try this:

Go here:
http://www.allchin.net/converter/bea...alculator.html

Click the form labeled "ONCLICK BPM" - play your track and tap the beat using the enter key. It will at least get you in the ball park

R
__________________
click.listen.enjoy
www.levityproject.com

Last edited by RedStone; 09-13-2006 at 11:15 AM.
RedStone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2006, 11:14 AM   #3
kenn
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Toronto ON
Posts: 315
Default

(on preview - Redstones link will give you the rough BPM much quicker, but you can read the following for the theory )

You can get there by just banging in different BPM values, checking the lineup of gridlines with actual beats, and making progressively smaller changes to the BPM value. Can be annoying, though.

This way worked for me and took a few minutes:

Rough setting: play the music and find a spot where you can clearly hear the tempo, with strong and easy-to-see beats. Put a marker on one downbeat, play 4 or 8 bars from there, and put a mark on the next downbeat. Play from one marker to the other again to confirm. Now determine how many seconds between the two markers, by creating a selection between them. Call that time T.

The BPM (beats per minute) will be ((B * BB)/ T) /60

where
B= number of whole bars between the markers
BB = number of beats per bar. (eg if the music is in 4/4 time, it's 4)
T = time in seconds between markers.

The more bars (B) you use for this calculation, the more accurate the result, but 4 or 8 is sufficient for an initial setting.

Set the reaper project BPM to the value calculated. (and write it down somewhere, ie in the project notes panel)

Fine-tuning: find a downbeat near the start of the piece, split the audio there, and discard the part to the left. Drag the remaining segment all the way to the left.

You will see the downbeat gridlines lining up on the downbeats, at least on the start. Scroll to the right and observe whether the actual downbeats start to get ahead of the downbeat gridlines or behind them. If the downbeats get ahead, increase the BPM setting very slightly. If the downbeats get behind, reduce the BPM setting very slightly.

At the end of this process i found I was altering the BPM by just 0.02 at a time to pull it in the last little bit, and if the song has a very steady beat (eg sequenced) it's possible to be very tight right to the end. The BPM value will probably have 2 or 3 decimal places, like 107.551. If the song is looser and the tempo varies a bit, you can get close but you won't find one single BPM setting that is accurate for the whole song.

Last edited by kenn; 09-13-2006 at 11:16 AM.
kenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2006, 11:18 AM   #4
RokkD
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,151
Default

I had a similar situation awhile back, singing and strumming my guitar with no drums or click track, then decided I wanted to add drums. So I took the track into Tracktion and used the tap tempo, I came up with 76.33bpm, when the song started to get a little bit out of sync half way through, I split and nudged the drum track, it worked out quite well.

btw, there are a couple of free tap tempos out there for those who don't have one included in their host.



--
RokkD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2006, 11:18 AM   #5
RedStone
Human being with feelings
 
RedStone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Posts: 410
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenn
You can get there by just banging in different BPM values, checking the lineup of gridlines with actual beats, and making progressively smaller changes to the BPM value. Can be annoying, though.
That's how I used to stretch drum loops with Vegas ... except I'd mess with the loop's "original bpm" setting until it lined up with the grid. It can be annoying, but that's how to do it ... combined with the website, you could probably cut the time down to a minute or two
__________________
click.listen.enjoy
www.levityproject.com
RedStone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2006, 11:21 AM   #6
sinkmusic
Human being with feelings
 
sinkmusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: decepticon mothership in a hidden place inside a mountain
Posts: 3,423
Default

wow : thank you Kenn, you deserve the "2006 esoteric calculation strategy prize" !
I have tried using a Teragon beatcounter plugin, it didn't worked fine at all.
I also tried in Live, importing my track, and using Live's native tap tempo, but when i report the given value in Reaper, it sin't very accurate.

I found what should be a very handy tool (soma taptempo plugin), but couldn't make it work in Reaper.

I think i will try your math's solution.
THank you both
sinkmusic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2006, 11:23 AM   #7
sinkmusic
Human being with feelings
 
sinkmusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: decepticon mothership in a hidden place inside a mountain
Posts: 3,423
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RokkD
there are a couple of free tap tempos out there for those who don't have one included in their host.
wow ! Which oneS ?
I only know the soma's one i quoted above.

http://www.asseca.com/soma/
sinkmusic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2006, 11:26 AM   #8
sinkmusic
Human being with feelings
 
sinkmusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: decepticon mothership in a hidden place inside a mountain
Posts: 3,423
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenn
You can get there by just banging in different BPM values, checking the lineup of gridlines with actual beats, and making progressively smaller changes to the BPM value. Can be annoying, though.
Yes, this is what i tried to do, but Reaper's grid refresh is a bit slow (in Live, putting the cursor ontop of the tempo value and scrolling increases or decreases the tempo, in REaper, you still have to type it, which is slower for such modifications).
I could get average sync for the 8 first bars, but quickly after it was gone out of sync...
sinkmusic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2006, 11:29 AM   #9
RokkD
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,151
Default

Hmm.....Soma's tap tempo is working for me in reaper.

--
RokkD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2006, 11:36 AM   #10
sinkmusic
Human being with feelings
 
sinkmusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: decepticon mothership in a hidden place inside a mountain
Posts: 3,423
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RokkD
Hmm.....Soma's tap tempo is working for me in reaper.

--
In fact, i just can't see it in Reaper's plugin list...
sinkmusic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2006, 11:44 AM   #11
kenn
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Toronto ON
Posts: 315
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sinkmusic
...in Live, putting the cursor ontop of the tempo value and scrolling increases or decreases the tempo.
that would be a neat feature in Reaper. Or even some sort of drag-scrollup/scroll down on the tempo box, or some nudge up/down buttons. Just a way to bump the tempo by small amounts

Justin and Co. might be able to incorporate some sort of tempo estimation using the select region.

Something like:
- you set the region to go across 'X' bars (downbeat to down beat)
- right click on the selection. One of the options is "Set tempo from selection..."; hit it
- it has a small dialoguebox where you enter the number of bars (X) and the beats per bar, hit the Set button, and it performs the calculation and sets the tempo value, or displays the value and you can hit Accept or Cancel.
kenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2006, 11:51 AM   #12
sinkmusic
Human being with feelings
 
sinkmusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: decepticon mothership in a hidden place inside a mountain
Posts: 3,423
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenn
that would be a neat feature in Reaper. Or even some sort of drag-scrollup/scroll down on the tempo box, or some nudge up/down buttons. Just a way to bump the tempo by small amounts
Yes.
Such a feature woud be very handy to set the correct tempo of a project if you start with a long recorded file which you don't know the native tempo :
-you import the file, zoom to view the wave on an obvious "beat region"
-then, you just have to view the grid move while modifying progressively the tempo values, in order to adjust the grid and make it fit with the clip's tempo.
(i don't know if my explanations are clear).
sinkmusic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2006, 01:13 PM   #13
sinkmusic
Human being with feelings
 
sinkmusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: decepticon mothership in a hidden place inside a mountain
Posts: 3,423
Default

.. i have another idea : using hardware.
I have a drum machine with tap-tempo, maybe that i can try to make my drum machine's tap tempo send REaper master tempo ?
sinkmusic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2006, 01:27 PM   #14
sinkmusic
Human being with feelings
 
sinkmusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: decepticon mothership in a hidden place inside a mountain
Posts: 3,423
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RokkD
Hmm.....Soma's tap tempo is working for me in reaper.

--
Ok, i found the problem : it was labelled "container", so i couldn't find it.

Could you please tell me how you do (maybe a project file, with empty tracks but all ready to work ,if i'm not asking to much ?) ?
It doesn't seem to do anything here...
sinkmusic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2006, 04:48 PM   #15
RokkD
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,151
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sinkmusic
Ok, i found the problem : it was labelled "container", so i couldn't find it.

Could you please tell me how you do (maybe a project file, with empty tracks but all ready to work ,if i'm not asking to much ?) ?
It doesn't seem to do anything here...
Here you go sink, a project file loaded with a loop, and Soma tap tempo, just press play and start tapping on the red button with the mouse, I must say. I think the tap tempo in tracktion is a little more accurate......unless my timing is a bit off today ..

http://w11.easy-share.com/635073.html

--
RokkD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2006, 07:51 PM   #16
alex zonder
Human being with feelings
 
alex zonder's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,606
Default

Sink, I think Mixmeister's BPM Analyzer does a rather good job though I didn't have to use it more than once or twice so far. No tapping needed

http://www.mixmeister.com/download_freestuff.html
Or download here:
http://www.download.com/MixMeister-B...-10290907.html
alex zonder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2006, 04:59 AM   #17
sinkmusic
Human being with feelings
 
sinkmusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: decepticon mothership in a hidden place inside a mountain
Posts: 3,423
Default

Thank you, Rokkd & Alex, i will try Soma taptempo, and if i have no luck, i will a try to mixmeister bpm analyzer .
sinkmusic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2006, 05:46 AM   #18
sinkmusic
Human being with feelings
 
sinkmusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: decepticon mothership in a hidden place inside a mountain
Posts: 3,423
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RokkD
Here you go sink, a project file loaded with a loop, and Soma tap tempo, just press play and start tapping on the red button with the mouse, I must say. I think the tap tempo in tracktion is a little more accurate......unless my timing is a bit off today ..

http://w11.easy-share.com/635073.html

--
Hello.
I tried again : no way.
The tempo won't get updated in Reaper... I can hit the red square with my mouse, fat or slowly, Reaper keeps at 157bpm... argh.

I tested SOma's taptempo in Ext, it worked fine, even controleld with midi (you can slowdown/up the host's master temo using themousewheel, very tiny !).


(BTW, is it a DM loop from the track "new life" ??? )

SO, let's go for the "solution de repli" : mixmeister bpm analyzer.
sinkmusic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2006, 01:01 PM   #19
Spon
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 447
Default

I think the math is easier than trying to get a plugin working, and this whomps butt for accuracy.

I'm assuming constant tempo (you said drum machine), 4/4 time, and a calculator with a large range (Windows or Mac's calculator works fine). Keep all the decimal places until the end.

steps 1 & 2 are not technically necessary, if your wave editor has the ability to set a selection this exactly at both ends, and will tell you how many samples are in the selection.

1. copy the clip
2. trim the beginning and end of the copy to exact barlines
3. count the bars in the copy - all of them.
4. multiply by 4. This is BEATS.
5. measure the length of the copy in samples. This is SAMPLES.

Divide SAMPLES by the sample rate. This is SECONDS
Divide SECONDS by 60. This is MINUTES.
Divide BEATS by MINUTES - that's BPM

If you have a other than 4 beats per bar, substitute in step 4.

If your desired time signature has a different denominator than 4, divide by 4 and multiply by your desired denominator.

Because all the intermediate results are human-recognizable, any errors should be easy to spot.

If you come out with 119.992743 BPM, you might be better off cutting four samples off the end and trying again
Spon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2006, 03:07 PM   #20
sinkmusic
Human being with feelings
 
sinkmusic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: decepticon mothership in a hidden place inside a mountain
Posts: 3,423
Default

Hi SPon : yes, you should be right. SOmetimes, i'm too confident in technology i guess, and i'd better use my brain instead !
sinkmusic is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2006, 06:46 PM   #21
RokkD
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,151
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sinkmusic
Hello.
I tried again : no way.
The tempo won't get updated in Reaper... I can hit the red square with my mouse, fat or slowly, Reaper keeps at 157bpm... argh.

I tested SOma's taptempo in Ext, it worked fine, even controleld with midi (you can slowdown/up the host's master temo using themousewheel, very tiny !).


(BTW, is it a DM loop from the track "new life" ??? )

SO, let's go for the "solution de repli" : mixmeister bpm analyzer.
Ahh...now I see what you're doing, that's right it doesn't update reapers tempo, I use it to tap along to the beat in the track, and depending on how good your timing is, the readout on Soma will give you the approx' bpm.

You know sink, I don't remember where I got that loop from, I pick them up from here there and everywhere..

--
RokkD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2006, 10:34 AM   #22
RokkD
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,151
Default

sink, check this out...

http://mp3.deepsound.net/eng/samples_calculs.php

--
RokkD is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:25 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.