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07-28-2022, 01:14 PM
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#1
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,384
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When do you decide if you gonna treat a peak or not?
How many decibels difference the peak needs to be from RMS to decide that you gonna treat a peak?
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07-28-2022, 02:24 PM
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#2
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 739
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It is exactly 4.76dB, then you have to treat a peak, otherwise...
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07-28-2022, 05:50 PM
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#3
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,384
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonicowl
It is exactly 4.76dB, then you have to treat a peak, otherwise...
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i guess u're not serious but when do you treat peaks?
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07-28-2022, 07:48 PM
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#4
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,272
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I’m sure you know exactly what you think you’re talking about and therefor when you read your question it makes perfect sense. Unfortunately, none of the rest of us can read your mind, so you’re gonna need to elaborate a bit before you get meaningful answers.
Are you talking about individual instrument tracks? Full mixes? Recording stage, mixing, or mastering?
You’ve asked us how long is a piece of string, and the answer is quite obviously “about tree fitty.”
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07-28-2022, 11:20 PM
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#5
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,384
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt
I’m sure you know exactly what you think you’re talking about and therefor when you read your question it makes perfect sense. Unfortunately, none of the rest of us can read your mind, so you’re gonna need to elaborate a bit before you get meaningful answers.
Are you talking about individual instrument tracks? Full mixes? Recording stage, mixing, or mastering?
You’ve asked us how long is a piece of string, and the answer is quite obviously “about tree fitty.”
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individual instrument tracks during mixing for edm purposes so no real instruments recording just drum samples synths etc
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07-29-2022, 02:22 AM
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#6
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 11,044
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Quote:
Originally Posted by for
individual instrument tracks during mixing for edm purposes so no real instruments recording just drum samples synths etc
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There is no number you can look at with meters that will tell you. Only your ears will tell you if something is poking out too much in the context of the mix.
If you're using samples and software synths you can solve most of this with the velocity of midi notes and controls on the plugins. Limiting peaks should come after you have sorted out dynamics as much as you can when you write the parts, although sometimes you may prefer the sound of compression and limiting. Don't forget volume automation too.
Stop looking at the meters and use your ears. The meters can't tell you how to mix
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07-29-2022, 08:10 AM
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#7
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,272
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If you turn up the track so that it’s loud enough in the mix, but its peaks cause clipping at the master output, then you might need to “treat” those peaks. Course, you might also just need some EQ to make sure you’re only turning up the parts of the sound that you really need and not wasting headroom on stuff that’s not really important. Or you may actually need to adjust some other sound(s) in your mix so you don’t have to push this one so hard to be heard. But ultimately it is about that “simple”. If you’re banging the rails and it’s still not loud enough, squash it.
There is definitely no formula for this. It so completely depends on the instrument. Drums, for example, tend to have a really big crest factor, while a square wave approaches 0. If you try to match those crest factors, you’re gonna have a bad time.
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07-29-2022, 09:10 AM
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#8
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,272
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@The Frown - I’m hoping you’ve just misunderstood cause I don’t really want to say “you’re wrong”, but…
There IS a limit. There will be a limit. We can’t leave infinite dynamic range. At some point, we need to reign in that crest factor. If you’re not handling it at the individual tracks, you’re likely to end up trying to do too much at the master.
I know it goes against some conventional wisdom, but in mixing there is no good reason to avoid 0dbFS. Eventually, you’re going to push things up to peak around there, it’s going to be your eventual limit, and it’s a very convenient visual reference. You can mix lower and sort of guess/eyeball about where that limit eventually will be, but it’s just easier to push it up to the top.
This is basically my philosophy for most things: Turn up the track til it sits where you want it in the mix. If you can’t get the part you want to hear loud enough without other parts of that sound ending up too loud, then you find some way to turn down that part that you don’t want. Might be EQ, might be compression/limiting/saturation, sometimes might be other things, and is often actually several of those things, but it really doesn’t have to be much more complicated than turn it up to where you want it, and if you can’t, figure out why and fix that.
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07-29-2022, 09:19 AM
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#9
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,561
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashcat_lt
This is basically my philosophy for most things: Turn up the track til it sits where you want it in the mix. If you can’t get the part you want to hear loud enough without other parts of that sound ending up too loud, then you find some way to turn down that part that you don’t want. Might be EQ, might be compression/limiting/saturation, sometimes might be other things, and is often actually several of those things, but it really doesn’t have to be much more complicated than turn it up to where you want it, and if you can’t, figure out why and fix that.
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That's it exactly.
Examine an individual example and you can talk about an exact threshold value. Otherwise it would be like asking exactly how many inches to press the gas pedal down to go some speed in a car.
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07-29-2022, 11:42 AM
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#10
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,272
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If you’re trying to get your crest factor to 12, shooting for 18 and eyeballing a limit around 6 rather than shooting for 12 where the limit is just 0 is kind of silly. If you push it up to 12 and still can’t hear it, something you don’t need is wasting headroom. If it’s going over 0, find out why and stop it from doing that.
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07-29-2022, 01:25 PM
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#11
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 1,161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by for
When do you decide if you gonna treat a peak or not?
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Whenever I feel like it, what's it to you?
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07-29-2022, 01:42 PM
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#12
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,823
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Frown
Many plugins are optimised to receive singal at this level, and leaving a solid 18dB of headroom is best practice for avoiding clipping. Mostly it is plugin clipping that we are avoiding, since clipping of tracks isn't a huge issue when working at 64-bit float (as is common now), as I'm sure you know. Plugins however can still clip, most of them anyway.
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Is there a list of plugins that are optimised for receiving signal at -18db?
Might be useful
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07-29-2022, 02:36 PM
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#13
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by domzy
Is there a list of plugins that are optimised for receiving signal at -18db?
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None of them are because this is a backasswards way of looking at it. These plugins have limits, and their sample-by-sample “voltage” transfer function gets curvy as you approach those limits. Those limits generally have nothing to do with rms/LUFS/average levels. It’s the peaks that matter. Anything instantaneous sample level above like -6dbFS is going to start to come out lower than it really wants to. Whether the average is-30 or -9, if any individual sample goes over -6, it’s gonna be distorted some, and the closer 0 you get, the more distorted it’ll get. It’s usually plugins that look like hardware. If you don’t want at least some distortion, then don’t use the things. But we can use this to our advantage because it can help us control our peaks well before it becomes objectionable. These kinds of plugins should (not to say necessarily do) include input and output controls so that the amount of distortion you get can be independent of your DAW levels, and if they don’t you can always use othe plugins to adjust before and/or after levels.
The whole -18 thing is a red herring that bogs down the inexperienced who are following “advice” from people on the internet and mostly ignored by people who actually mix because we know how the tools work and use them as necessary by turning the knobs til it sounds good.
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07-29-2022, 03:09 PM
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#14
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,823
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yeah, i saw all the paskuli v white tie / the world "discussions" before & i was just wondering if there is actually anything worth taking note of with regards to specific plugins, just in case i've got them & i'm using 'em wrong
Of course it can't be emphasised enough to use your ears though.
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07-29-2022, 03:13 PM
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#15
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,823
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ErBird
Whenever I feel like it, what's it to you?
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this is, of course, the best answer to the title question.
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07-29-2022, 04:27 PM
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#16
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 11,044
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Frown
No need, not wrong. Tis not I who has misunderstood. Obviously there is a limit and it's pretty bad faith to assume anyone here wouldn't know that. The limit at 24-bit is 144dB. The point I was (I thought obviously) making is that the notion of -18dBFS (the often suggested starting point for signal levels when mixing) being wasted headroom is ludicrous. With a dynamic range of 144dB, 18dB is utterly inconsequential.
Many plugins are optimised to receive singal at this level, and leaving a solid 18dB of headroom is best practice for avoiding clipping. Mostly it is plugin clipping that we are avoiding, since clipping of tracks isn't a huge issue when working at 64-bit float (as is common now), as I'm sure you know. Plugins however can still clip, most of them anyway. Not to mention we don't want the Master Fader to clip either, otherwise we'll be limited to exporting to floating point, which we might not want, or else we'll be turning the signal down after rendering; totally avoidable and unnecessary.
The idea that we should be setting levels in a DAW with no regard for the full scale ceiling just to avoid wasted headroom is a relic of the days of magnetic tape and has no place in digital music production.
Also, we will eventually get to 0dBFS (well, -1dBFS is better)... at the mastering stage, not before, unless we're lazy or incompetent, usually it's laziness that is to blame.
P.S. My post that you were responding to had nothing to do with crest factor, which is solely a function of a signal's average peak and RMS values.
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Headroom is irrelevant here, it is purely about relative levels within a mix. You can have 40dBFS headroom but still find that shaker pokes out a bit too much on the downbeat without being heard for the rest of the bar. That is a musical decision based on dynamics in context, not a consideration of digital headroom.
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07-29-2022, 04:32 PM
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#17
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 11,044
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Quote:
Originally Posted by domzy
yeah, i saw all the paskuli v white tie / the world "discussions" before & i was just wondering if there is actually anything worth taking note of with regards to specific plugins, just in case i've got them & i'm using 'em wrong
Of course it can't be emphasised enough to use your ears though.
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If you're using an analogue emulation calibrated to a particular level, it will almost always have a VU meter. Many let you adjust the calibration yourself. This gives you all the information you need, but you would still be best advised to ignore the meters and use your ears to decide what level to hit it with, because we are not fighting noise floor in digital so it again comes down to twiddling knobs till it sounds good.
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07-30-2022, 11:24 AM
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#18
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,255
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When a peak stabs me in the ear I treat it. Badly.
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08-01-2022, 05:23 AM
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#19
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 11,044
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Frown
Set listening levels with your audio interface, not in the DAW.
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It feels like you're having a different conversation to the rest of us.
I was responding to a post about plugin input levels. Listening levels weren't mentioned.
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08-01-2022, 07:08 AM
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#20
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Geordieland
Posts: 1,454
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OP is long gone
__________________
It's never too late and you only have to get lucky once.
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08-01-2022, 08:05 AM
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#21
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,384
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtop
OP is long gone
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i'm here but i can't understand these things i need to do homework
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08-01-2022, 08:21 AM
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#22
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 12,561
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Trust your ears. This is an artistic decision. How loud do you want one mix element vs another? How loud do you want a lead vocal vs the snare drum? There's no single "correct" answer for every recording.
On the technical side, you have a window to put your mix into dynamically. A dynamic range to use. The volume war stupidity saw people trying to push the volume to the top edge of that window. That kind of compromise where you reduce peaks to get away with more boost is still subjective. It's your choice and you can follow your ears. If you're just mixing and not pushing the bleeding edge of volume war loud at the same time, you can just trust your ear for mix balance decisions.
As mentioned, mixes with something "interesting" going on are often better received than "perfect" mixes of boring material.
I'll mention this again:
If you only have volume war loud CDs in your collection and have your volume control set for those, you'll have red lights scolding you before you even get a mix element loud enough by itself when you try to start mixing. Set your volume for more proper range music and suddenly you can just mix. Your ears tell you to turn something down before a red light lights up.
Just like shrinking an image down to thumbnail size, you can make a boosted volume war master afterwards. Don't try to draw at tiny size to begin with. Don't try to mix at volume war production levels to begin with.
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08-01-2022, 09:38 AM
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#23
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 7,272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Frown
I wasn't talking about crest factor.
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Then you weren’t talking about what I was talking about. I mentioned there seemed to be a misunderstanding.
Quote:
My information comes from decades of experience plus no less than two music production degrees…
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Oh so it’s a pissing contest now? I’ve got decades, too pal. I never paid for any degrees, but I’m reasonably sure I could test out of any your programs. I’ve got a firm understanding of the electronics in the analog stuff and the coding behind the digital stuff. You have either misunderstood my statement or you just don’t actually know how these things work. I’m giving actual practical advice that addresses the OP’s questions directly while you just keep repeating the same poor information they could get from about anywhere and it much of it isn’t really applicable here.
Quote:
Set listening levels with your audio interface, not in the DAW.
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This is generally good advice. When your monitors are properly calibrated, you can generally tell the approximate overall loudness just by…well…how loud it is.
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08-01-2022, 04:41 PM
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#24
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Oblivion
Posts: 10,255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by for
i'm here but i can't understand these things i need to do homework
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Although math and numbers are clearly involved, mixing is Art more than Science. Which is to say, it's easier (and subjectively better) to mix with your gut rather than your head. I mean, use your brain, but don't let it lead you, because rabbit holes like your OP don't lead to finished mixes.
So there is no answer to your question, in other words. There are also infinite answers to your question. Any better?
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08-01-2022, 10:23 PM
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#25
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 2,905
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I test my mix on the old technics stereo, in the car and on the computer.
If any note even irritates me I go back in find it and deal with it either eq or automation.
Automation as regards volume is a real friend I use this most of the time.
Pounamu
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