Old 10-13-2019, 11:57 PM   #1
Stews
Human being with feelings
 
Stews's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,392
Default Can Reaper Send Values to Controller?

Considering getting a midi controller with endless encoders with the led lights round the outside to display the position.

Is there functionality in Reaper to send the current value out to the controller so that if I change the value using the mouse, or load a preset/project, the led on the controller will be updated accordingly?

Or would the led only ever be correct if both the encoder and the value in Reaper both start at 0 and is only changed with the encoder?
Stews is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2019, 05:30 AM   #2
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,687
Default

Many controllers receive Midi messages to display values via LEDs, but they might use very different protocols for this.

Reaper can send Midi, so of course it can send "something" to these LEDs.

But I suppose your question is about automatically sending sensible data do drive the LED display.

Here you very likely will need additional software that allows to define the workflow you want to see.

The "Control Surface" subforum is the location to discuss these issues, so you should ask any questions over there.

-Michael
mschnell is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2019, 06:35 AM   #3
Stews
Human being with feelings
 
Stews's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,392
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Many controllers receive Midi messages to display values via LEDs, but they might use very different protocols for this.

Reaper can send Midi, so of course it can send "something" to these LEDs.

But I suppose your question is about automatically sending sensible data do drive the LED display.

Here you very likely will need additional software that allows to define the workflow you want to see.

The "Control Surface" subforum is the location to discuss these issues, so you should ask any questions over there.

-Michael
Thanks for the reply.

Your supposition is correct, I didn't really mean is it technically possible, more asking if Reaper would do this automatically which you say it doesn't. So that answers that.

Cheers!
Stews is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2019, 06:48 AM   #4
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,687
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stews View Post
it doesn't.
Yep. (In most cases) it doesn't, but in the said subforum you'll find multiple free tools to accomplish exactly this.
-Michael
mschnell is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2019, 07:17 AM   #5
lunker
Human being with feelings
 
lunker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Lucas, TX, USA (via Luleå, Sweden)
Posts: 2,008
Default

ReaLearn is pretty cool. I found this video useful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0LBdXXcg7g
__________________
Best Regards, Ernie "lunker" Lundqvist
BDSM (Bad Dog Studio Musicians)
Windows 10 running on Z390 + i7-8700

Last edited by lunker; 10-14-2019 at 07:32 AM.
lunker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2019, 08:05 AM   #6
Stews
Human being with feelings
 
Stews's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,392
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lunker View Post
ReaLearn is pretty cool. I found this video useful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0LBdXXcg7g
Wow nice one thanks.

To be honest I had kind of assumed it would take a lot of faffing about and wasn't going to bother but it looks relatively easy, definitely makes an endless encoder controller more appealing.

That one used in the video looks great too but it's pretty pricey.
Stews is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2019, 09:07 AM   #7
lunker
Human being with feelings
 
lunker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Lucas, TX, USA (via Luleå, Sweden)
Posts: 2,008
Default

Yes, it was a lot easier than I thought it would be.

I don't think I ended up using any of the extras that he went over in the video (LBX scripts, etc.) -- just setting up ReaLearn was all I needed to do. I'm not sure if maybe it all worked because I happen to have the LBX stuff from ReaPack (but have never used it) and so it all worked "under the hood", or if I just haven't discovered extra functionality that I don't need yet. Either way, ReaLearn gave me a bi-directional link between Reaper and MIDI controller.

And yes, the MIDI Fighter Twister does look good. I'd get one in a minute if I could convince my wife that I need one.
__________________
Best Regards, Ernie "lunker" Lundqvist
BDSM (Bad Dog Studio Musicians)
Windows 10 running on Z390 + i7-8700
lunker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2019, 10:33 PM   #8
technogremlin
Human being with feelings
 
technogremlin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 2,629
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Yep. (In most cases) it doesn't
Actually, if your controller uses a standard protocol like HUI, in most cases it does work without setting things up yourself. I use a Tascam US-2400 with HUI protocol; just hooked it up and set the correct midi-channels and I have rotary scales feedack and even VU-monitoring on the Tascam without bothering with any scripts or stuff. Just the default control surface setup that is native available in reaper.
technogremlin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2019, 04:17 PM   #9
airon
Human being with feelings
 
airon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
Default

There's no built-in midi feedback.


The CSI project is coming along well. Check it out in the controller forum section. There's still some encoder mode stuff missing, but it'll be there soon I should think.


That CAN do feedback. So there are some options other than Reaper itself.
__________________
Using Latch Preview (Video) - Faderport 16 setup for CSI 1.1 , CSI 3.10
Website
"My ego comes pre-shrunk" - Randy Thom
airon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2019, 09:44 PM   #10
technogremlin
Human being with feelings
 
technogremlin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 2,629
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
There's no built-in midi feedback.
So how do my motorized faders react to reaper then, and how is it that not only my pan settings but also (for example) my ReaEQ settings are showing on my control surface without any specific setup for that?

I'm pretty sure there are many plugins that don't supply midi feedback information, but reaper certainly has midi feedback built-in. Otherwise my TASCAM US-2400 wouldn't work as it does right now, and has done for that last 10 years or so that I'm using reaper.

Anyone interested in that can check my sig below
technogremlin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2019, 10:37 PM   #11
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,687
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by technogremlin View Post
So how do my motorized faders react to reaper then,
Read airon's post and follow his instructions to learn more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by technogremlin View Post
I'm pretty sure there are many plugins that don't supply midi feedback information
Close to none do that.

Reaper sees the plugin parameters together with it's own parameters (such as track volume) and the appropriate controller connection plugin (or functionality) mentioned here (which you can select in the Reaper configuration: such as "HUI (partial)" or "CSI") communicate with Reaper to propagate it (e.g. as Midi messages) from/to the Controller Surface device.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 10-15-2019 at 11:17 PM.
mschnell is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2019, 01:02 AM   #12
technogremlin
Human being with feelings
 
technogremlin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 2,629
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Read airon's post and follow his instructions to learn more.
Yeah... you completely missed my point.

I don't need any plugin, as my control surface WORKS! (for ten years now) with reaper's default available control surface mapping (the stuff that comes with reaper when you download and install it) and no other additional stuff installed for that.

Again, if you have a HUI or Mackie Control compatible surface there is a big chance that midi feedback works with NO PLUGIN NEEDED. So there is actual WORKING MIDI FEEDBACK in reaper !!!!!!

All the different control surface plugin projects are aimed at hardware that is not or not completely HUI/Mackie compatible (I think), but that does not mean that there is no midi feedback implemented in reaper.
technogremlin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2019, 01:13 AM   #13
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,687
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by technogremlin View Post
All the different control surface plugin projects are aimed at hardware that is not or not completely HUI/Mackie compatible (I think), but that does not mean that there is no midi feedback implemented in reaper.
That is a total misconception.

The "HUI (partial)" (and any other) functionality that comes with Reaper out of the box supports some dedicated (class of) hardware with some dedicated (class of) workflow. This is predefined and fixed. If you are happy with that, you're OK.

If you want something that is only slightly different or enhanced, you need an appropriate extension to Reaper.

CSI is an extension that is configurable by configuration files (and other means) to support multiple kinds of protocols (including HUI) / hardware (including Mackie) / workflow (including handling audio plugin).

-Michael
mschnell is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2019, 01:31 AM   #14
technogremlin
Human being with feelings
 
technogremlin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 2,629
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
That is a total misconception.
Hmmm... HUI/Mackie protocols have been at least somewhat of a standard for a long time and there have been (and still are) many controllers available on the market that support those protocols. For example, most of the current NI hardware still does.

So I stand by my statement: if you have a HUI/Mackie protocol compatible control surface, chances are it works without additional stuff.

But the point was that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by airon View Post
There's no built-in midi feedback.
... is not correct, as that would mean that my control surface wouldn't work... but it does.
technogremlin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2019, 02:36 AM   #15
Stews
Human being with feelings
 
Stews's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,392
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by technogremlin View Post
Hmmm... HUI/Mackie protocols have been at least somewhat of a standard for a long time and there have been (and still are) many controllers available on the market that support those protocols. For example, most of the current NI hardware still does.

So I stand by my statement: if you have a HUI/Mackie protocol compatible control surface, chances are it works without additional stuff.

But the point was that...



... is not correct, as that would mean that my control surface wouldn't work... but it does.
I wasn't asking about the Mackie mode, that's not what I want to use.

Your controller wouldn't work the way I wanted it to out of the box because there's no built in midi feedback.

Mschnell gave me the correct answer.
Stews is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2019, 02:38 AM   #16
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,687
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by technogremlin View Post
So I stand by my statement: if you have a HUI/Mackie protocol compatible control surface, chances are it works without additional stuff.
How should the HUI protocol know the audio plugins you are using ?

-Michael
mschnell is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2019, 07:14 AM   #17
technogremlin
Human being with feelings
 
technogremlin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 2,629
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stews View Post
I wasn't asking about the Mackie mode, that's not what I want to use.

Your controller wouldn't work the way I wanted it to out of the box because there's no built in midi feedback.

Mschnell gave me the correct answer.
But I wasn't answering your question, I reacted to the statement that reaper does not have midi feedback build-in. It does, even if it is only for HUI/Mackie protocol implemented. I never said it would work with non-HUI/Mackie compatible stuff (which seems obvious from how I stated it).

It doesn't send feedback from plugins (but they still give me the correct readout, see below), but I do have native feedback for my motorized faders, and the VU-bridge function on my surface gets feedback also from reaper. Selected channels, solo and mute buttons are also updated on the surface when I set those in reaper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
How should the HUI protocol know the audio plugins you are using ?
You are correct re plugins. I recalled this incorrectly (happens when you are used to something). I use soft-takeover for that which means the encoder ring updates to the correct value because the control in the plugin gets 'hooked' at the correct readout. So when I work with plugins they don't send feedback BUT I still get the correct readout when I edit stuff from my control surface. Works for me as you must rotate the rotary to pick-up the soft-takeover anyway.
technogremlin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2019, 09:01 PM   #18
bcslaam
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Perth, Australia
Posts: 169
Default

MCU/HUI protocol is grossely inadequate IMO, as is midi in general for this. Sure you might get transport, fader and pan and limited sends but thats not close to what you can get with OSC. Which can do it all. Just look at how it can be done with Touchosc and one of the available template/extensions for Reaper.

Sadly there is only one hardware controller I know of with endless rotaries that has osc. It is the "Mine S".

It really baffles me why so little hardware controllers have osc. It is the open protocol that was made for this and is more than capable. Avid have their own similar ethernet protocol, Eucon, for this but it sucks, osc is way better and open sourced, supported by a community.

But Ive harked on enough about it now. There is a new controller being made by the guy in this thread

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/musi...-want-one.html

that will appear to have a decent brain giving various translation layers including OSC and midi. Mine S also does this but no integrated screen/labelling with that one.

Last edited by bcslaam; 10-16-2019 at 09:07 PM.
bcslaam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2019, 09:59 PM   #19
technogremlin
Human being with feelings
 
technogremlin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 2,629
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bcslaam View Post
It really baffles me why so little hardware controllers have osc
I think it's a legacy thing. Old controllers (like mine) where made long before OSC was developed and back then HUI/Mackie where the 'standard protocols' for this. So now most DAW software supports HUI/Mackie because there are still a lot of 'old' controllers in use and that in turn means that if you build a HUI-compatible controller these days it means it is supported by a lot of software. But if you go for OSC then there is still a lot of software that doesn't support that.

Case in point; NI dropped MCU support for the MK2 range keyboard controllers and got burned for that, so they added it back in not so long ago.
technogremlin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-16-2019, 10:33 PM   #20
mschnell
Human being with feelings
 
mschnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,687
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bcslaam View Post
MCU/HUI protocol is grossely inadequate IMO, as is midi in general for this.
Why do you think so ?

You can transfer any information via Midi, and (e.g.) with Midi over USB it's decently fast.

There are a lot of "standard" ways to use Midi e.g. for high resolution Data (e.g. HR CC, and the new Midi standard for transferring thousands of parameters with high resolution), plus the possibility to butcher the standard as MICI does.

For transferring text it's possible to use multiple CC-Type Parameters, butcher Note events, or use SysEx.

I don't see in what way OSC would be inherently better suited.

-Michael
mschnell is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:00 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.