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Old 09-17-2017, 05:48 AM   #1
Slavewave
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Default Render comes out with much more high end.

Hi guys,

each time I render a track, it comes out with much more high end than in the original mix played in Reaper. Hi hats are +- 2db louder. And overall everything sounds more brittle and harsh. I playback on different speakers, headphones and have all eq's set to flat when playing in itunes ect.

When I render I have this on the master bus:
-EQ
-Reacomp (glue)
-Event Horizon limiter

What you hear come out of the masterbus should be the same as what you rendered, no?
I'm converting from 24 bit to 16 bit and use the Dither option. Anyone have an idea what I might be doing wrong or how this occurs? Thanks in advance.
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Old 09-17-2017, 06:22 AM   #2
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Make sure nothing is loaded in your Reaper monitoring FX.

How does the exported file sound if you re-import to Reaper and play it?
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Old 09-18-2017, 05:31 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Stella645 View Post
Make sure nothing is loaded in your Reaper monitoring FX.

How does the exported file sound if you re-import to Reaper and play it?

The rendered file sounds like the output file. Have nothing loaded on my monotering FX. Could it have something to do with the dithering?
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Old 09-18-2017, 06:05 AM   #4
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Are you rendering to the same samplerate as your playback? Also:
Quote:
I playback on different speakers, headphones and have all eq's set to flat when playing in itunes ect.
What does that mean?
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Old 09-18-2017, 11:43 AM   #5
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It's a common thing in reaper that renders sound different then mixes. In my case, I do get muffled sound. I have to render to stereo track first, before rendering to mp3. Try that. Other thing you might have a problem with, is one or some of your tracks sending straight to audio device, so check routing if everything is ok in there.
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Old 09-18-2017, 05:19 PM   #6
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This helped me

https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=194499
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Old 09-19-2017, 02:10 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikComposer View Post
It's a common thing in reaper that renders sound different then mixes. In my case, I do get muffled sound. I have to render to stereo track first, before rendering to mp3. Try that. Other thing you might have a problem with, is one or some of your tracks sending straight to audio device, so check routing if everything is ok in there.
In all my professional work using Reaper (and before that - been using Reaper since 2007) I have never had issues of this nature. I've seen posts like this pop up at other DAW forums, other music forums etc. I'm sure there are people who are more sensitive to other factors when playing back music ie. the gui of the music player or just the volume level. Unless there's something broken it has to be user error of some sort or perception differences.

What can help is to try to create some kind of 'control' environment from which to make comparisons.

I remember going through the motions with both Harrison Mixbus and (a long time back) Zynewave Podium. At the time I was sure there was some difference in sound. After doing multiple renders from each DAW then importing them, methodically, in every other DAW I had, they would all null with each other in every DAW. I concluded it was just perception difference literally caused by the gui - 'hearing' with my eyes I guess you could call it.
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Old 09-19-2017, 08:03 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by bladerunner View Post
In all my professional work using Reaper (and before that - been using Reaper since 2007) I have never had issues of this nature. I've seen posts like this pop up at other DAW forums, other music forums etc. I'm sure there are people who are more sensitive to other factors when playing back music ie. the gui of the music player or just the volume level. Unless there's something broken it has to be user error of some sort or perception differences.

What can help is to try to create some kind of 'control' environment from which to make comparisons.

I remember going through the motions with both Harrison Mixbus and (a long time back) Zynewave Podium. At the time I was sure there was some difference in sound. After doing multiple renders from each DAW then importing them, methodically, in every other DAW I had, they would all null with each other in every DAW. I concluded it was just perception difference literally caused by the gui - 'hearing' with my eyes I guess you could call it.
I did a test like that. Me and others were noticing the difference in blind tests. Reaper cubase and fl beat reaper by a bit in terms of sound clarity and depth. Same synth, same midi track and same volume. That's within the sequencer and after render. The sound from reaper, in comparison to cubase and fl, seams to have fluffy top and bottom, with fx sounding like they started a bit late. Basically it sounds like there is a phase issue.
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Old 09-19-2017, 10:32 AM   #9
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when I put the exact same audio file into reaper and Logic Pro x and compare they sound exactly the same.., if I load up the Kontakt sampler with the same sound in it in both programs they sound exactly the same.

When I render a file with no plugin effects in both programs and compare they sound exactly the same.

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Old 09-19-2017, 10:41 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikComposer View Post
I did a test like that. Me and others were noticing the difference in blind tests. Reaper cubase and fl beat reaper by a bit in terms of sound clarity and depth. Same synth, same midi track and same volume. That's within the sequencer and after render. The sound from reaper, in comparison to cubase and fl, seams to have fluffy top and bottom, with fx sounding like they started a bit late. Basically it sounds like there is a phase issue.
But did you do null tests? If these issues were in fact there you would hear them 'left behind' when you hit the phase button. If you did do null tests and they nulled then it's a perception 'difference' that you're hearing.
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Old 09-19-2017, 10:57 AM   #11
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But did you do null tests? If these issues were in fact there you would hear them 'left behind' when you hit the phase button. If you did do null tests and they nulled then it's a perception 'difference' that you're hearing.
They didn't null. However, there was reverb on them, one that's in massive synth.This is when you can hear most difference. Post with files is somewhere on the forums. In cubase it was just crisp and deep sounding. Same with FL, although with that I only ask my mate a question, while he was in the hallway, and didn't knew from what daw i played the sound. In reaper it sounds somewhat muffled, so my guess it is phase issue or some sort of issue processing sound from midi notes.
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Old 09-20-2017, 03:27 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikComposer View Post
It's a common thing in reaper that renders sound different then mixes. In my case, I do get muffled sound. I have to render to stereo track first, before rendering to mp3. Try that. Other thing you might have a problem with, is one or some of your tracks sending straight to audio device, so check routing if everything is ok in there.
Thanks! I'll give it a go. I think it's maybe a routing problem. Have to figure out how to check that though.
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Old 09-20-2017, 03:38 PM   #13
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Thanks! I'll give it a go. I think it's maybe a routing problem. Have to figure out how to check that though.
Check routing matrix
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Old 09-20-2017, 03:45 PM   #14
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Thanks!
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Old 09-21-2017, 12:57 AM   #15
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for me it was always a routing issue :-)

do you guys really render the master track?

I always do it like e.g. Dave P. does it - I create a print track and render that one
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Old 09-21-2017, 01:22 PM   #16
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One thing I've come across is if you had an old DAW, which came with some plug-ins, and you try to use them in Reaper, sometimes they won't render. If you have a "freebie" that was included in another package, you might find that it works in Reaper for listening, but won't render.
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Old 09-22-2017, 10:57 AM   #17
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They didn't null. However, there was reverb on them, one that's in massive synth.This is when you can hear most difference. Post with files is somewhere on the forums. In cubase it was just crisp and deep sounding. Same with FL, although with that I only ask my mate a question, while he was in the hallway, and didn't knew from what daw i played the sound. In reaper it sounds somewhat muffled, so my guess it is phase issue or some sort of issue processing sound from midi notes.
You can't null a moving target.
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Old 09-22-2017, 01:22 PM   #18
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There is one other possible cause of this - if rendering to MP3 there is a command line argument in LAME that can impose frequency filters on the rendered output.

I only mention this because the OP never made it clear which file format was being rendered to.
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Old 04-30-2018, 02:32 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by MikComposer View Post
They didn't null. However, there was reverb on them, one that's in massive synth.This is when you can hear most difference. Post with files is somewhere on the forums. In cubase it was just crisp and deep sounding. Same with FL, although with that I only ask my mate a question, while he was in the hallway, and didn't knew from what daw i played the sound. In reaper it sounds somewhat muffled, so my guess it is phase issue or some sort of issue processing sound from midi notes.
This interested me as I wanted to check for myself what really goes on and if the same problem manifests here, so I scrolled through all of your postings (yes, all 1800+ postings) but I could not find any post where you actually shared files that illustrate the problem. There were a whole bunch of posting with opportunities to share files that illustrated what you hear, but you did not post any. Even when asked by others, no files were posted as far as I could find.

Could you please give links to those posts?

Thanks.
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Old 04-30-2018, 02:35 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Fabian View Post
This interested me as I wanted to check for myself what really goes on and if the same problem manifests here, so I scrolled through all of your postings (yes, all 1800+ postings) but I could not find any post where you actually shared files that illustrate the problem. There were a whole bunch of posting with opportunities to share files that illustrated what you hear, but you did not post any. Even when asked by others, no files were posted as far as I could find.

Could you please give links to those posts?

Thanks.
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Old 05-01-2018, 02:41 AM   #21
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OK, thanks.
Strange that I did not catch that one. But anyways... Are you saying that those two files were generated from two different DAWs (Reaper being one) from the exact same MIDI file(s), with the exact same VSTi, with the exact same settings in both DAWs? That would be very strange indeed, as the files have different peaks and RMS...

Code:
                File A              File B
Peaks (dB)    -8.80  -9.45        -9.99  -9.64
RMS (dB)     -23.85 -24.45       -24.04 -23.95
LUFS (dB)        -33.9                -33.8
TP max (dB)      -20.8                -21.6
(LUFS and TP measured by Youlean Loudness meter)

Of course those files are not going to sound the same, they don't even look the same. Comparing their frequency spectrums also shows significant differences. And the differences between them are much too large to come from Reaper miscalculating something. There has to be some settings that are not the same between the DAWs or in the VSTi's when rendering those two files.

And BTW, your claim (in post #5 in this thread) that
Quote:
It's a common thing in reaper that renders sound different then mixes
is not at all what's being tested here.

Thanks
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Old 05-01-2018, 04:08 AM   #22
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If you want to show a difference between Monitored mix & the Rendered,
you have to come up with some way of recording the Monitor that you can prove doesn't change it. Or at least show that you can re-record the Rendered in the same way.

I'd be interested to know how this might be done.

Otherwise, this whole thing is merely anecdote.
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Old 05-01-2018, 09:31 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabian View Post
OK, thanks.
Strange that I did not catch that one. But anyways... Are you saying that those two files were generated from two different DAWs (Reaper being one) from the exact same MIDI file(s), with the exact same VSTi, with the exact same settings in both DAWs? That would be very strange indeed, as the files have different peaks and RMS...

Code:
                File A              File B
Peaks (dB)    -8.80  -9.45        -9.99  -9.64
RMS (dB)     -23.85 -24.45       -24.04 -23.95
LUFS (dB)        -33.9                -33.8
TP max (dB)      -20.8                -21.6
(LUFS and TP measured by Youlean Loudness meter)

Of course those files are not going to sound the same, they don't even look the same. Comparing their frequency spectrums also shows significant differences. And the differences between them are much too large to come from Reaper miscalculating something. There has to be some settings that are not the same between the DAWs or in the VSTi's when rendering those two files.

And BTW, your claim (in post #5 in this thread) that

is not at all what's being tested here.

Thanks
Hi,

Every setting was the same. I run reaper on three machines, always same results. Maybe it's a setting somewhere within the convoluted options menu, idk. Reaper renders do never sound like mixes to this day. Cubase on the other hand, always played that midi exactly the same, with render coming out 1:1 as it was inside the daw. idk why.

I don't have that cubase le installed anymore, but if i can install it, when I will have some free time I will redo the test, and post project files to check out for those who have massive.
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Old 05-01-2018, 09:39 AM   #24
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If you want to show a difference between Monitored mix & the Rendered,
you have to come up with some way of recording the Monitor that you can prove doesn't change it. Or at least show that you can re-record the Rendered in the same way.

I'd be interested to know how this might be done.

Otherwise, this whole thing is merely anecdote.
Sorry, what do you mean? Both files were rendered to wav trough clean master.
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Old 05-01-2018, 09:54 AM   #25
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Sorry, what do you mean? Both files were rendered to wav trough clean master.
he's probably referring to your claim - "It's a common thing in reaper that renders sound different then mixes"
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Old 05-01-2018, 10:38 AM   #26
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he's probably referring to your claim - "It's a common thing in reaper that renders sound different then mixes"
Ah yeah, you can notice this with lows, hights, and also with reverbs.
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Old 05-01-2018, 10:48 AM   #27
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Except it doesn't happen over here.
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Old 05-01-2018, 10:49 AM   #28
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Except it doesn't happen over here.
Or here, I just finished a 13 track CD with plenty of synths here and there, the mix in reaper sounds EXACTLY like all renders, exports and the final distribution CD.
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Old 05-01-2018, 11:10 AM   #29
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i've never noticed either. However, is it possible that differences between "playback resample" and "render resample" in project settings could have a bearing on this?
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Old 05-01-2018, 11:15 AM   #30
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Except it doesn't happen over here.
Does not happen here either, which is why I am so curious.

I render, take the rendered file into the project, and it all nulls perfectly, to -inf. So I really do not understand what MikComposer is talking about.
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Old 05-01-2018, 11:40 AM   #31
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i've never noticed either. However, is it possible that differences between "playback resample" and "render resample" in project settings could have a bearing on this?
It could be almost anything but what it will not be is magic, it's an unknown in the affected user's config or setup but we'll never know what it is or how to help until someone/anyone is willing to go step by step to find it.

When renders are different it almost always comes down to...

- Render settings, rate conversions, etc.

- Differences in the playback between Reaper and the player that the user is unaware of.

Historically, this comes up with a small handful of users, many of those get to the bottom of it after working through things methodically, an even fewer minute few, never seem to get that far so not much we can do.
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Old 05-01-2018, 12:02 PM   #32
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Another possible reason, for the original poster:

Your operating system might send the audio through a mixer application when you use something like media player or vlc etc. That mixer application can have its own EQ, compressor, settings for pseudo surround, and so on.

Chances are in Reaper you are not sending through that mixer application especially if you're using asio drivers. This means the sound in Reaper will be different from using a media player application on your computer if the sound passes through a mixer application with any settings other than absolutely neutral.

This sort of thing has caught many people off guard and not just with Reaper, for as long as I can remember.
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Old 05-01-2018, 12:40 PM   #33
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Another possible reason, for the original poster:
Probably not explained well but that's my second bullet above (just so the OP knows).
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Old 05-01-2018, 01:21 PM   #34
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It could be almost anything but what it will not be is magic,
Well, you say that, but it could be psychology, which is pretty close.
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Old 05-01-2018, 01:47 PM   #35
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Well, you say that, but it could be psychology, which is pretty close.
I'd say psychology is simply believing it's magic when it isn't. It's a natural response and Arthur C. Clarke sums it up well IMHO - aka can't tell it's not magic if we don't dig deep enough to understand the root cause..
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Old 12-01-2018, 03:02 AM   #36
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I too am having major issues with playback quality vs rendering

Been trying to solve it for a week now. Many things have been rendered. Many things have been a/b-ed

No Joy ... heartbreaking even
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Old 12-01-2018, 03:59 AM   #37
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I too am having major issues with playback quality vs rendering

Been trying to solve it for a week now. Many things have been rendered. Many things have been a/b-ed

No Joy ... heartbreaking even
This doesn't help. You should describe your setup. Which sample rate, which plugins etc. If 99% don't have issues and some have, the failure can't be a general problem within Reaper. As already mentioned, there are plugins which sound different with different sample rates. And its a common rule to render a project in the same sample rate as its set to and converting it down afterwards.

I would try to figure out where the changes come from. Save your project as a testproject (with all setting but no tracks). Then start with one track of audio or MIDI to find if there is a difference between playback and render.

A rendered song always sounds different in comparison to a song played back in Reaper if modulation or random effects like reverb take place.

But I have a question in general: I remember that in FL-studio there was an option to set which enabled rendering of FX or Instruments at highest oversampling when rendering. So you could playback with less CPU consumption but were sure the rendering would take place with the best quality (if the plugin allowed it). This of course ended up with a difference and you had to pre listening the effects at the highest oversampling. But it was a nice feature. So is there something similar in Reaper? Because this could also result in such side effects.
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Old 12-01-2018, 08:05 AM   #38
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Ah yeah, you can notice this with lows, hights, and also with reverbs.
Let's say that you are actually hearing something; why are you attributing the difference to Reaper and not Cubase?

It is not a "common thing", I would surmise it's going to be a pan law difference, dithering, a midi scaling factor or a seed value for a pitch modulation if something doesn't null.
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Old 12-01-2018, 10:01 AM   #39
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The notion that two digital audio files that null can by 'mysteriously' different in ways beyond our ability to measure...

The creator of the digital storage format says no.
The software writers base their DAW apps on the premise that such 'magic' doesn't happen. And the operation follows as predicted with no mystery crashes or whathaveyou.

We know perception bias is a thing. Just lower the volume 0.1db and suddenly you're hearing a difference. (A difference the meters agree with mind you and one you'd catch with a null test.)

There's just SO much you'd have to attribute to unmeasurable magic to run with this!

Every try to write code? Even something simple? Notice how a small error or a misconception in how something works shuts you down immediately? Do you really think a complex DAW app would keep running if the writer based some of the code on a misconception? (ie. the notion that two sets of the exact same pattern of ones and zeros can somehow be different)

Those are the questions I would ask myself in making this determination.
This IS a complex audio app. There ARE many settings on the render page. It's EASY to make an error. I'd recommend looking for the operator error when your render sounds different than what you were monitoring live.
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