Old 10-30-2019, 01:46 PM   #1
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Default I added a video (Tod's Thunderbirds)

Hi my fellow Reaperers.

I just finished a production for a contest on "VIP". VIP is a group of producers, audio engineers, and song writers who get together and help each other out with their music.

The way the contest works is 5 or 6 people get together and create backing tracks that we have to use in our own production. The only thing we can't do is add or change any chords, otherwise we can cut and splice the heck out of it to create our own productions. I cut and spliced the heck out of it.

I ended up only using one of the backing tracks and then added my own tracks. I used our own SMM drums along with what I call "Native Drums" that I programed in Kontakt several years ago. Then I added strings and played my Tele guitar over the top of it.

I'm not going to submit this for a couple of weeks, so I'd like to test it out on you Reaper folks. If you here anything that needs fixing please let me know.

Added a video called "Tod's Thunderbirds".

https://youtu.be/mSyYFzmXYks
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Old 10-30-2019, 11:46 PM   #2
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Mostly great, but IMHO the slow attack and dull strings stick out as low quality vs the great sound of everything else.

-Michael
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Old 10-31-2019, 04:18 PM   #3
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Mostly great, but IMHO the slow attack and dull strings stick out as low quality vs the great sound of everything else.

-Michael
Thanks a lot Michael, I know you're right about this, another friend says the same thing. I'm going to have to use some other samples. My old ears don't hear much above 3khz, so I don't hear so well.

What I used were all Native Instrments strings, Essential strings and Session Strings Pro. It's disappointing that the aren't working, I goth them with Komplete Ultimate 11, the strings were one of the main reasons I got it.

You might get a PM if I get some other strings working.
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Old 10-31-2019, 05:19 PM   #4
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At 28 seconds that Hank Marvin guitar sound gets swamped by the strings. I like the guitar better.
Towards the end the lead guitar is also swallowed up by the strings.

Great nod to the classic Spaghetti Western style of electric guitar. Big thumps up for that.

Can you do some automated expression on the strings in Kontact? That might make them a bit more lively.
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Old 10-31-2019, 07:10 PM   #5
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At 28 seconds that Hank Marvin guitar sound gets swamped by the strings. I like the guitar better.
Towards the end the lead guitar is also swallowed up by the strings.

Great nod to the classic Spaghetti Western style of electric guitar. Big thumps up for that.

Can you do some automated expression on the strings in Kontact? That might make them a bit more lively.
Thanks Dyl, I think you've made some very good suggestions.

I've got regular midi automation on each of the Strings (Violin 1, Violin 2, Viola, and Cello).
Then I've got a VCA on the overall strings, so correcting them will be relatively easy.
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Old 10-31-2019, 10:33 PM   #6
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I've updated the mix in the 1st post..

Let me know what you think now.
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Old 10-31-2019, 10:57 PM   #7
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Much better.
But still I would like a string articulation a with more attack (i.e. less Melotron alike) better.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 10-31-2019 at 11:05 PM.
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Old 10-31-2019, 11:44 PM   #8
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Much better.
But still I would like a string articulation a with more attack (i.e. less Melotron alike) better.

-Michael
Thanks again Michael, when you say attack, are you talking about the string runs?

Other then the string runs it's all pretty much all legato.

It's hard to make string runs with most libraries, at least the ones I can afford. I actually tried to put a script I wrote that adds attack into an empty slot, but NI had it blocked.

I do have the EWQLSO Gold Library, and that one I can do all the scripting on that I want. However, it's and old library and I'm not sure it would sound any better.

The orchestra libraries I'd like to have are a little out of my range.
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Old 11-01-2019, 01:02 AM   #9
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Thanks Dyl, I think you've made some very good suggestions.

I've got regular midi automation on each of the Strings (Violin 1, Violin 2, Viola, and Cello).
Then I've got a VCA on the overall strings, so correcting them will be relatively easy.
Brilliant, the VCA thing I hadn't thought of. That would be useful for me too.
I'm messing about with Orchestral light music in the style of 1940s-70s BBC broadcasts.
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Old 11-01-2019, 01:43 AM   #10
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Brilliant, the VCA thing I hadn't thought of. That would be useful for me too.
I'm messing about with Orchestral light music in the style of 1940s-70s BBC broadcasts.
Thanks Dyl, so the strings sound okay to you now?

I'm not sure what "style of 1940s-70s BBC broadcasts" is like but I'm anxious to hear what you come up with.
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Old 11-01-2019, 02:17 AM   #11
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Just listened to the update and I think it's a vast improvement.
There was still something I wasn't liking so I rummaged through the online manual for that orchestral library EWQLSO because of the stuff I'm doing currently reminds me of your sound...

felt like you've improved the entry of the strings but across the time period they play they sound pretty static.
You may already be automating these things so I apologise if you are doing so. If you are then I think it's just more of what you are doing. If not then you will be able to make them sound more realistic for sure.

So, I'm talking about separating the volume automation and expression automation.
According to the manual its midi controllers CC11 and CC7. The expression should be like a slight volume increase but the timbre should change to give, well, more expression as opposed to a straight volume hike.
I'm using Miroslav Philharmonic, which is definitely at the lower end of the price scale, and it sounds significantly better when adding in the expression automation. Combining this with velocity levels makes a huge difference.

Hopefully this will help. I'm going on about it a bit because the "expression" alone has just rescued my orchestral ambitions. Everything sounded dull and static until I started automating this.
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Old 11-01-2019, 02:18 AM   #12
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Thanks Dyl, so the strings sound okay to you now?

I'm not sure what "style of 1940s-70s BBC broadcasts" is like but I'm anxious to hear what you come up with.
Ha, I was just thinking I should pot something. I only have sketches at present because I have literally just figured out this stuff this week. I will try and push up my latest sketch and post a link.
Have to dust off my old Soundcloud account.
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Old 11-01-2019, 02:29 AM   #13
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https://soundcloud.com/marinelayer66...artet4/s-XsRLA


https://soundcloud.com/marinelayer66...artet3/s-B225g

Try these links Tod.
You should hear the timbre of the violins change in the second half, quite a bit brighter.
Apologies for mix, this is really just a sketch as I learn how to automate the thing properly.
I use key switching a lot more now, too. However this example is mainly staccato playing in all instruments.
Second example has more key switching but lots of expression automation, on every track in fact.
Again apologies for mix balance these are rough sketches.

Last edited by Dyl; 11-01-2019 at 02:44 AM. Reason: extra detail
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Old 11-01-2019, 03:46 AM   #14
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The orchestra libraries I'd like to have are a little out of my range.
Re strings, you might take a look at

-> https://samplemodeling.com/en/products_strings.php
"all in a single package, and at a very affordable price. :-)"

(OK; some $400,- ... )

I do have these, but I only use them for Live solo playing with the Seaboard, not for orchestral stuff.

-Michael
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Old 11-01-2019, 03:56 AM   #15
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Thanks again Michael, when you say attack, are you talking about the string runs?
Other then the string runs it's all pretty much all legato.
I think an articulation like this would be appropriater:

-> "Who is the guy with the hat" (on https://samplemodeling.com/en/demos_strings.php )
-Michael
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Old 11-01-2019, 04:36 AM   #16
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Re strings, you might take a look at

-> https://samplemodeling.com/en/products_strings.php
"all in a single package, and at a very affordable price. :-)"

(OK; some $400,- ... )

I do have these, but I only use them for Live solo playing with the Seaboard, not for orchestral stuff.

-Michael
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I think an articulation like this would be appropriater:

-> "Who is the guy with the hat" (on https://samplemodeling.com/en/demos_strings.php )
-Michael
Thanks again Michael, I know you are a huge fan of sample modeling and there's no reason you shouldn't be. For solo instruments I think it is probably the best.

In all honesty my wife and I are not financially challenged but we are basically retired and in today's world we do have to mind our Ps and Qs. $400 is not that big of deal, however we have a lot of little $200 to $500 we have to deal with on a weekly basis, and we have to make that what we have will last for a long time.

I might also add, if I had music projects coming through the door like I did through the 70s, 80, and even into the 90, I'd already have all the sample modeling instruments as well as some better orchestra libraries.

Right now my only clients are for writing Kontakt scripts, and I'm thankful for that. Between that and the opportunity to at least create some music, it gives this old man a reason to get up every morning, looking forward to the day.

On another note, I know I've told you this before, I like your music very much.
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Old 11-01-2019, 04:46 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Dyl View Post
https://soundcloud.com/marinelayer66...artet4/s-XsRLA


https://soundcloud.com/marinelayer66...artet3/s-B225g

Try these links Tod.
You should hear the timbre of the violins change in the second half, quite a bit brighter.
Apologies for mix, this is really just a sketch as I learn how to automate the thing properly.
I use key switching a lot more now, too. However this example is mainly staccato playing in all instruments.
Second example has more key switching but lots of expression automation, on every track in fact.
Again apologies for mix balance these are rough sketches.
I was born in 1943 and your music does have a 40s sound. My father was a professional musician in the 30s and 40s, so I grew up hearing 30s and 40s music.

If you're just starting out Dyl, I think you're doing very well.
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Old 11-01-2019, 05:01 AM   #18
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Thanks for that Tod. Glad I'm getting the feel right. What did your dad play?

I used to listen to a Radio broadcast back in the early 70s as a small child; played this stuff all day long. Henry Hall was the main bandleader. A local cafe started playing his stuff about a year ago and reignited my interest.

So, back to your project, do you think there is anything else to be had from looking at those midi controllers?

Guy Michelmore is an English composer does a lot of short videos on Youtube, getting the most out of sample libraries, that sort of thing. You might like them.
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Old 11-01-2019, 06:32 AM   #19
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For solo instruments I think it is probably the best.
But the "Hat" example was for showing the viability and ability of using different articulations in a context of a modern orchestral string section.

-Michael

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Old 11-01-2019, 07:19 AM   #20
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Much better.
But still I would like a string articulation a with more attack (i.e. less Melotron alike) better.

-Michael
With Kontak strings I always end up sweeping the "Sound" knob around until I can hear the scrape and air from the bow. Same with Kontakt brass. I think of I am the Walrus strings and then sweep the Sound control around until I hear a similar sound.
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Old 11-01-2019, 07:56 AM   #21
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With Kontak strings I always end up sweeping the "Sound" knob around ...
The Sample Modeling Strings are also hosted by Kontakt . But they us a huge amount of different samples and did very sophisticated scripting to allow for a bunch of articulations and modulations. Same with their Brass.
-Michael
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Old 11-01-2019, 09:25 AM   #22
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The Sample Modeling Strings are also hosted by Kontakt . But they us a huge amount of different samples and did very sophisticated scripting to allow for a bunch of articulations and modulations. Same with their Brass.
-Michael
Kinda pricey! I only have and use the Vienna Symphonic Library from Kontakt's stock factory library. The sforzando articulation and a sweep of the "Sound" control usually gets me a string sound that fits. The Sample Modeling Strings do look to be cool though.
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Old 11-01-2019, 10:14 AM   #23
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With Kontak strings I always end up sweeping the "Sound" knob around until I can hear the scrape and air from the bow. Same with Kontakt brass. I think of I am the Walrus strings and then sweep the Sound control around until I hear a similar sound.
Glennbo, can you post a short mp3 of how the strings sound doing it your way.
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Old 11-01-2019, 11:15 AM   #24
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Glennbo, can you post a short mp3 of how the strings sound doing it your way.
Sure, but like I said I just sweep the "Sound" knob on the stock VSL strings until it sits in the mix, which is usually when by themselves they sound thin and nasaly. The first 15 seconds is stock VSL strings as they are when added and no changes are made.

The second 15 seconds is the exact same midi part duplicated and played through a second instance of VSL strings with the "Sound" control in the vicinity that I use it in real projects. When it's not the only instrument, the strings don't sound as thin and nasaly. I like to hear the scrape of the bow and some air. YMMV.

https://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=13940645
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Old 11-01-2019, 11:26 AM   #25
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Sure, but like I said I just sweep the "Sound" knob on the stock VSL strings until it sits in the mix, which is usually when by themselves they sound thin and nasaly. The first 15 seconds is stock VSL strings as they are when added and no changes are made.

The second 15 seconds is the exact same midi part duplicated and played through a second instance of VSL strings with the "Sound" control in the vicinity that I use it in real projects. When it's not the only instrument, the strings don't sound as thin and nasaly. I like to hear the scrape of the bow and some air. YMMV.

https://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=13940645
Okay, got yah, thanks for doing that Glenbo, it gives me a better idea.

By the way, I've written a lot of scripts for those strings, let me know if you'd like anything in particular.
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Old 11-02-2019, 10:58 PM   #26
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Okay I've got a mix with some different strings, it's posted on the 1st post at the top.
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Old 11-02-2019, 11:24 PM   #27
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Yep. Now the strings don't stick out generally negatively any more. I think this does work regarding quality and feeling. There is no reason not to believe that it is meant to sound exactly as it is.

Still, to my personal taste, while all other instruments feature a "natural" / "modern" sound, the string articulation has this artificial (here: 80th) "pad" characteristics, which I personally don't like (any more : I still have a "Wersi String Orchestra" keyboard, doing this to the extreme, sitting in the attic). More like a synth than like an orchestra. So to me they still "stick out" in the mix.

-Michael

Last edited by mschnell; 11-02-2019 at 11:38 PM.
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Old 11-03-2019, 12:51 AM   #28
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Yep. Now the strings don't stick out generally negatively any more. I think this does work regarding quality and feeling. There is no reason not to believe that it is meant to sound exactly as it is.

Still, to my personal taste, while all other instruments feature a "natural" / "modern" sound, the string articulation has this artificial (here: 80th) "pad" characteristics, which I personally don't like (any more : I still have a "Wersi String Orchestra" keyboard, doing this to the extreme, sitting in the attic). More like a synth than like an orchestra. So to me they still "stick out" in the mix.

-Michael
Thanks again Michael, I think the 80s sound might be coming from the string vibrato, a friend and I noticed that too and it's going to be changed.

The Viola and Cello were Adagio strings (8Dio). Violins 1 and 2 are from Berlin strings.

I'm also going to try my EW Gold strings.

I'll Let you know.
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Old 11-03-2019, 02:24 PM   #29
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Hi guys, my 3rd mix with all new strings, it's posted in my 1st post.
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Old 11-03-2019, 02:45 PM   #30
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Yep. I like it much better. The strings even could be slightly louder, IMHO.

Did you drop the Cellos ? Maybe this was a good idea as the Cellos only add mud unless their articulation is truly accented, which in turn would be distracting at that point.

-Michael
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Old 11-03-2019, 04:33 PM   #31
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Lo-fi à la Ennio Morricone or hip hop would be sweet although it is awesome as it is now.

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Old 11-03-2019, 05:27 PM   #32
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Yep. I like it much better. The strings even could be slightly louder, IMHO.

Did you drop the Cellos ? Maybe this was a good idea as the Cellos only add mud unless their articulation is truly accented, which in turn would be distracting at that point.
Great Michael, now I can rest easier. I didn't really drop the cello, not purposely.

A little story on the strings, I'm writing Kontakt scripts for a client who lives in Uzbekistan of all places, we've become very close friends. Any way, he has all the great orchestra samples on the market and after he heard my first mix, he suggested that I send him my midi tracks and he would replace my strings with his strings.

I'm glad I did.
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Old 11-03-2019, 05:49 PM   #33
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He's giving me the "high hat" isn't he. (Not to be confused with hi-hat.)
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Old 11-03-2019, 06:45 PM   #34
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Lo-fi à la Ennio Morricone or hip hop would be sweet although it is awesome as it is now.
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He's giving me the "high hat" isn't he. (Not to be confused with hi-hat.)
Wow, ha ha, I'm sorry poplomop, I did actually answer you, I swear I did, but I must have pushed the wrong button.

Quote:
Lo-fi à la Ennio Morricone or hip hop would be sweet although it is awesome as it is now.
My answer was something like this:

Thanks for the kind words poplomop, ha ha, Lo-fi à la Ennio Morricone or hip hop, I wouldn't even to know where to start.
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Old 11-03-2019, 07:12 PM   #35
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Ah don't mind me man, had a rough week. Sounds pretty cool.
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Old 11-04-2019, 01:57 PM   #36
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I might also add, if I had music projects coming through the door like I did through the 70s, 80, and even into the 90, I'd already have all the sample modeling instruments as well as some better orchestra libraries.
Dreams never last that long ---- do they? (Great track by the way)
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Old 11-04-2019, 09:08 PM   #37
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Dreams never last that long ---- do they? (Great track by the way)
Thanks Sambo, and hey, ha ha, did you remember that song, or did it come up after you played the link?
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Old 11-06-2019, 04:41 AM   #38
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I'm now at mix 5 for anyone whos concerned.
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Old 11-09-2019, 04:09 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
I'm now at mix 5 for anyone whos concerned.
Okay, got another new mix, it's now mix 7.

It's in my first post.
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Old 11-09-2019, 11:32 PM   #40
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Yep.

This does sound consistent to me !

(Did you upload #5 ? Supposedly I did not understand your post correctly and did not listen to it.)

-Michael
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