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Old 12-03-2019, 12:22 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by karbomusic View Post
To be fair, I think "most" of the issues Robert mentions are real - he gets in a hurry and doesn't fully explore 'sometimes' but most of the time I can appreciate the diligence; the embellishment bugs me obviously but I can't help it, stone faced accuracy is what is important to me by nature because that's the only thing devs care about - it's all the can care about. Otherwise, I try to do my best to help people out, I'm not perfect, but I do try.
I hear you, and I've had my own issues, mainly more with understanding how to do things than with bugs or missing features. And we all have our different workflows too, and a feature heavily used for one person might not even be touched by another. So it's tough to relate to some of the bug reports, as is, without hyperbole and attention seeking posts. I'm not going to beat up the OP more about that though, as this thread seems on track now.

I think you and I are on the same page though, and I think most posters here post pretty levelheaded questions, which in turn get levelheaded responses (with the odd "I didn't fully read the question" overzealous response from idiots like me from time to time haha).
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Old 12-03-2019, 12:59 PM   #82
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To be fair, I think "most" of the issues Robert mentions are real - he gets in a hurry and doesn't fully explore 'sometimes' but most of the time I can appreciate the diligence; the embellishment bugs me obviously but I can't help it, stone-faced accuracy is what is important to me by nature because that's the only thing devs care about - it's all they can care about. Otherwise, I try to do my best to help people out, I'm not perfect for damn sure, but I do try.
Well, I can understand you being upset with the embellishment.

It is largely me making light of embellishment, and/or making fun of myself. You can look through my youtube channel to see how goofy I am with thumbnails (because I think clickbait is a hilarious sub-culture). Or my website where I frequently make light of extremes or embellishment.

I know that some people read it incorrectly, and I understand that it impacts the message...

Can't help it. I think it's funny, and I think I'm a dope, so making fun of myself is even funnier to me.

So like I said to Coachz earlier, we pretty much agree about me.
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Old 12-03-2019, 01:06 PM   #83
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I'm all about humor, myself, and that shouldn't be discouraged. I'm not seriously trying to beat you up here, but I think you just have to remember how broad this audience is. Not everyone is going to get the message. And on one hand you were (presumably) genuinely preaching that this forum can be a turn off to people, and yet you title a post in a way that would probably scared off more people than 99% of the posts here (outside of the Lounge, anyways). I mean, if I was brand new to Reaper, and hadn't bought it yet, and I saw a post saying Reaper sucks, here's why (followed by a long list of reasons), I might mosey on to another DAW, you know?

Anyways, you seem like a decent enough person. If the joke you're making was completely obvious to everyone, you probably wouldn't have had any negative reaction to it at all. Again, the internet is a tough place to relay sarcasm and humor. I suggest coloring all your posts with emoticons, and/or the tilde, which is the internet's way of relaying "i'm being sarcastic". LOL (maybe I should have tilded that)
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Old 12-03-2019, 01:44 PM   #84
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I'm all about humor, myself, and that shouldn't be discouraged. I'm not seriously trying to beat you up here, but I think you just have to remember how broad this audience is. Not everyone is going to get the message. And on one hand you were (presumably) genuinely preaching that this forum can be a turn off to people, and yet you title a post in a way that would probably scared off more people than 99% of the posts here (outside of the Lounge, anyways). I mean, if I was brand new to Reaper, and hadn't bought it yet, and I saw a post saying Reaper sucks, here's why (followed by a long list of reasons), I might mosey on to another DAW, you know?

Anyways, you seem like a decent enough person. If the joke you're making was completely obvious to everyone, you probably wouldn't have had any negative reaction to it at all. Again, the internet is a tough place to relay sarcasm and humor. I suggest coloring all your posts with emoticons, and/or the tilde, which is the internet's way of relaying "i'm being sarcastic". LOL (maybe I should have tilded that)
I think you're totally right. I could have been extra goofy, or particularly stiff with my presentation and had a more tempered response.

However, I don't think responding to the post by attacking the person is ever appropriate. That happens on this forum with a frequency that's unacceptable.

Folks could have easily shown that anyone that thinks this place is 'rough' or 'rude' is totally wrong, but that certainly didn't happen did it?

I think it's pretty absurd that there's an expectation that you need to write a certain way, or you'll be treated poorly... or that "He started it!" is an acceptable response to any post.
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Old 12-03-2019, 01:48 PM   #85
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Tribalism...

Anyhow, thanks, Randolph. You've provided me with a lot of food for thought.
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Old 12-03-2019, 01:51 PM   #86
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I think it's pretty absurd that there's an expectation that you need to write a certain way, or you'll be treated poorly... or that "He started it!" is an acceptable response to any post.
FWIW, I found your post funny.

But there is an irony in moaning about a lack of moderation in a forum, in a post that would have been deleted on many other DAW forums.

Oh, and the lounge is a cesspit, but it is password protected so no-one has to see the horrors within. I actually think it serves a purpose; as a trash can to send threads to, and a cathartic release to prevent such bile spilling out onto the forums proper.
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Old 12-03-2019, 01:52 PM   #87
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So glad I skipped straight to the last page! I am impressed that this amount of b.s. was generated so quickly!

As always, you are my heroes, Karbo & Robert!
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Old 12-03-2019, 01:53 PM   #88
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Folks could have easily shown that anyone that thinks this place is 'rough' or 'rude' is totally wrong, but that certainly didn't happen did it?
Maybe not, but I didn't really think the opposite happened either. I didn't see anything really bad in this thread. Maybe a slight overreaction by some, initially, but cooler heads prevailed as convo continued, I think. Also, as I said before, it's a broad audience, and therefore what one person finds normal, another might find offensive. Hard to tiptoe around that though.. so, yeah. Lastly, it's a large forum with a large number of users, I hate to say it, but you're going to get a-holes in any such environment anywhere. It happens. As long as the good greatly outweighs the bad, though.
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Old 12-03-2019, 01:53 PM   #89
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Oh, and while direct rudeness is tolerated a lot less on other DAW forums, condescending passive-aggressiveness still goes on with abundance.

I prefer the directness that a light touch of moderation brings.
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Old 12-03-2019, 01:58 PM   #90
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But there is an irony in moaning about a lack of moderation in a forum, in a post that would have been deleted on many other DAW forums.
You are totally right about that.
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Old 12-03-2019, 02:07 PM   #91
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FWIW, I found your post funny.

But there is an irony in moaning about a lack of moderation in a forum, in a post that would have been deleted on many other DAW forums.

Oh, and the lounge is a cesspit, but it is password protected so no-one has to see the horrors within. I actually think it serves a purpose; as a trash can to send threads to, and a cathartic release to prevent such bile spilling out onto the forums proper.
I think the password also keeps the junk in there off of search results too. But yeah, it is maybe Cockos' version of The Purge lol
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Old 12-03-2019, 02:23 PM   #92
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However, I don't think responding to the post by attacking the person is ever appropriate. That happens on this forum with a frequency that's unacceptable.

Folks could have easily shown that anyone that thinks this place is 'rough' or 'rude' is totally wrong, but that certainly didn't happen did it?

I think it's pretty absurd that there's an expectation that you need to write a certain way, or you'll be treated poorly... or that "He started it!" is an acceptable response to any post.
I hope you see the irony there (sort of like punching someone in the face then saying 'see, they aren't very nice'), your jabs at the forum and it's members was an attack on real and living people - otherwise, I'd not have responded - proverbially blurring the faces of those people with via wording doesn't make it not a personal attack of sorts.

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This Forum - does not have a good reputation, at all. Zealots. Rude. Fanatics. Snobs...
Any person who has disagreed with you in the past here potentially falls under that knife whether you meant it to or not. I reread ^that, it wasn't part of the joke best I can tell.

Now, to be fair, I reread all my posts and best I can tell, they weren't super nice, but were civil and I was calling out "behavior" not calling you names or degrading you as a person. I was always taught to call out behavior not people.

Otherwise, water under the bridge as far as I'm concerned, other than we both apparently owe ivan a paypal payment or something.
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Old 12-03-2019, 02:33 PM   #93
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I've always found people most polite and helpful on this forum except maybe in the lounge😂
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Old 12-03-2019, 02:34 PM   #94
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I unfortunately have to agree with Robert on the tendency toward snobbery and zealotry around. It reminds me of the Kemper forum at times - people have been requesting a software editor over there for 6+ years at this point, and a large number of users keep responding with:

"I don't need one, so they shouldn't make one."
"I don't understand why anyone would need one, so they shouldn't make one."
"Why did you buy a Kemper when you knew it didn't come with an editor if that's so important to you?"

That argument, and others like it, has been going for six years. I actually stopped going to the forum or their FB user group because of it. Just the other day I popped in to see what was up, since Kemper announced an editor back in January that has yet to show up, and... surprise! The exact same argument IS STILL GOING ON.

Some people like the product as it is and will shut down anything that doesn't personally benefit them.

We get that here too - go look at any big FR like the Area Selection thread from a month or two back and see how many people insist that the OP is either mistaken, ignoring "good" workarounds that are buggy or awkward, or that it's simply not a necessary feature because they have no use for it.

Hell, any time someone asks for improvements to the Reaper's video functionality I can guarantee this will happen at some point: "I don't want them to devote any time to video because this will make the product bulkier and buggier".

Really, it's the same "only one thing can be correct and I have to believe in it 100% or I'm failing at life" mentality we see with Democrats vs. Republicans.
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Old 12-03-2019, 02:37 PM   #95
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I think the password also keeps the junk in there off of search results too. But yeah, it is maybe Cockos' version of The Purge lol
I was around when they added the password, it was partly due to complaints because there were so many long-running, nasty threads going on and it was cluttering up the "new posts" link - which many users use - the password feature made the new post page and search results cleaner for those who actually use reaper on a regular basis - the lounge is dead quiet now in comparison to what it used to be if you can imagine that.
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Old 12-03-2019, 02:40 PM   #96
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I hope you see the irony there (sort of like punching someone in the face then saying 'see they aren't very nice'), your jabs at the forum and it's members was an attack on real and living people - otherwise, I'd not have responded - proverbially blurrying the faces of those people with via wording doesn't make it not a personal attack of sorts.

Any person who has disagreed with you in the past here potentially falls under that knife whether you meant it to or not. I reread ^that, it wasn't part of the joke best I can tell.
I tried to make it clear that I was relaying the opinion that I both hear and see repeated. I very clearly failed at that.

Outside the forum, I can say for certain that there is a rather poor reputation of this place. I can understand it.

My personal opinion is that this place is easily the most helpful audio software forum out there, but it also seems to tolerate a completely unnecessary amount of bickering, name calling, politics, blah blah. I think it's "worth it" (assuming that'd be a consideration), and the ratio of good:bad favours good quite a bit.

But it's the sort of thing where you can call someone handsome for 10 days in a row and they won't say a word, but call them ugly once and.... whammo. The negativity sticks.

That said... I wish all the attention in this thread was being given to the takes system instead
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Old 12-03-2019, 02:50 PM   #97
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I was around when they added the password, it was partly due to complaints because there were so many long-running, nasty threads going on and it was cluttering up the "new posts" link - which many users use - the password feature made the new post page and search results cleaner for those who actually use reaper on a regular basis - the lounge is dead quiet now in comparison to what it used to be if you can imagine that.
Ahh, interesting piece of forum history lol Crazy that it was even worse before. I didn't even notice that New Posts link until you pointed it out.

@Robert, have you checked out version 6 Beta yet? Any of your list fixed in it, or has nothing changed there? I haven't really actually checked it out beyond installing it and a very brief look.
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Old 12-03-2019, 02:55 PM   #98
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That said... I wish all the attention in this thread was being given to the takes system instead

Have you been back to that thread? It kept going after you dropped off, and I think there was a lot of good discussion. Not much from devs, but hopefully they read it.
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Old 12-03-2019, 02:55 PM   #99
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Hell, any time someone asks for improvements to the Reaper's video functionality I can guarantee this will happen at some point: "I don't want them to devote any time to video because this will make the product bulkier and buggier".
I totally agree with your point...

Just to point out though, ^that could be a legitimate concern and not snobby - it could go either way because... the problem is how someone disagrees, not if they happen to disagree. FRs, especially the ones that are made as discussions for example, should contain healthy sussing and discourse IMHO.

If none of that matters then why the hell can't I check email from Reaper dammit, I don't need to be leaving the DAW to check a simple email from my client while mixing his/her project.
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Old 12-03-2019, 03:00 PM   #100
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I totally agree with your point...

Just to point out though, ^that could be a legitimate concern and not snobby - it could go either way because... the problem is how someone disagrees, not if they happen to disagree. FRs, especially the ones that are made as discussions for example, should contain healthy sussing and discourse.

If none of that matters then why the hell can't I check email from Reaper dammit, I don't need to be leaving the DAW to check a simple email while mixing.
If it was a legitimate concern, the same complaints should apply to literally any other feature being FRed - but they don't. Video stuff in particular gets picked on because so many people don't use it at all.

It's also one of those "hey I'm not a software developer but here have my uninformed opinion about software development issues" things where someone makes a blanket statement that would really only be true if Cockos were teenagers with no idea what they were doing.

I agree that discussion is important, but lot of the "discussion" I end up seeing is really just dismissal.

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Old 12-03-2019, 03:08 PM   #101
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I tried to make it clear that I was relaying the opinion that I both hear and see repeated. I very clearly failed at that.

Outside the forum, I can say for certain that there is a rather poor reputation of this place. I can understand it.
Part of my stats post was hinting you are probably right in some form but how do you know your sample set is not partially anecdotal based on the fact that much of what you do is blogging issues with software, which by it's very nature means you will be coming in contact with disgruntled users in some form in a weighted fashion? I'm not claiming it, but seems it might be worth considering since possibly 80% of the user base doesn't use forums at all.

I can't tell you that you are wrong or right, I've not seen it myself but I also purposely maintain a two-forum maximum because... If more than that, then I'm not actually doing much of the thing the forums are about.
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Old 12-03-2019, 03:09 PM   #102
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I unfortunately have to agree with Robert on the tendency toward snobbery and zealotry around. It reminds me of the Kemper forum at times - people have been requesting a software editor over there for 6+ years at this point, and a large number of users keep responding with:

"I don't need one, so they shouldn't make one."
"I don't understand why anyone would need one, so they shouldn't make one."
"Why did you buy a Kemper when you knew it didn't come with an editor if that's so important to you?"

That argument, and others like it, has been going for six years. I actually stopped going to the forum or their FB user group because of it. Just the other day I popped in to see what was up, since Kemper announced an editor back in January that has yet to show up, and... surprise! The exact same argument IS STILL GOING ON.

Some people like the product as it is and will shut down anything that doesn't personally benefit them.

We get that here too - go look at any big FR like the Area Selection thread from a month or two back and see how many people insist that the OP is either mistaken, ignoring "good" workarounds that are buggy or awkward, or that it's simply not a necessary feature because they have no use for it.

Hell, any time someone asks for improvements to the Reaper's video functionality I can guarantee this will happen at some point: "I don't want them to devote any time to video because this will make the product bulkier and buggier".

Really, it's the same "only one thing can be correct and I have to believe in it 100% or I'm failing at life" mentality we see with Democrats vs. Republicans.

Tottaly agree!
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Old 12-03-2019, 03:23 PM   #103
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Not to side track things further, but do other DAWs offer a video component? Is that only Reaper, or is it only a handful? I actually find it an odd thing for them to take on too, but if others out there do it, it probably makes more sense. That said, it's a feature that does exist now and is part of the pricing, so obviously it should be something they put effort into fixing. If I didn't come to this forum, I wouldn't even know Reaper could be used to build videos... there's so much buried beneath the hood that I still haven't touched or know about yet.
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Old 12-03-2019, 03:26 PM   #104
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That said... I wish all the attention in this thread was being given to the takes system instead
I very hope so!

BTW i don't know if this is already known, i just wanted to share. I just found that dragging a take over another with the modifier render item to new file, you can choose to add source media as a new take in the target media item or replace the target media with the source media. Just need to choose the option below: adjust target media item length to fit source media as shown in the gif, in order to fit to the length of the target take.
And this works for every imploded take seperately and not to the whole item.
I think seems like a nice way to move different parts of takes when they are imploded. It would be nice also, if we had an option, or action, that would allow us to "exchange" the target and source takes positions when they are imploded.
I also hope the Devs will take a look again on the takes system for improvements, such as to be able to split each take lane seperately and not the whole item.

(Sorry for my bad english, not my native language)


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Old 12-03-2019, 03:32 PM   #105
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That said, it's a feature that does exist now and is part of the pricing, so obviously it should be something they put effort into fixing. If I didn't come to this forum, I wouldn't even know Reaper could be used to build videos... there's so much buried beneath the hood that I still haven't touched or know about yet.
I can't go into it now without a long and drawn-out post but who draws the line on "lite" functionality? I discussed a similar concern here years ago about some other feature - I forget what it is or if it was ever implemented but my concern had to do with this..

"Please, we need to do X at least in some minimal fashion"

It eventually gets added in a minimal/lite fashion, then the minimal lite implementation is met with...

"This is half-baked, anyone using this will also need can-o-worms features a,b,c,d,e,f,g,h,i,j,k...."

That's a real thing in any software that tries to extend functionality into other areas, I find very few who actually understand that problem as the problem it is by it's very nature.
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Old 12-03-2019, 03:34 PM   #106
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@Karbo

I get what you're saying here, and I can see why we don't want to open that can of worms About what I figured though, by the sounds of it. I'm sure there's been enough heads butted over this topic in the past.
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Old 12-03-2019, 03:40 PM   #107
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@Karbo

I get what you're saying here, and I can see why we don't want to open that can of worms About what I figured though, by the sounds of it. I'm sure there's been enough heads butted over this topic in the past.
Yea I didn't mean just video per se, it was a good example of the problem/challenge though. It's real thing, I don't know if feature creep is the right term, though that is also a real thing but something in that arena. People who just want/need things to get their work done, not by their fault, may not be fully aware of such challenges, I reckon.
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Old 12-03-2019, 03:55 PM   #108
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It's also one of those "hey I'm not a software developer but here have my uninformed opinion about software development issues" things where someone makes a blanket statement that would really only be true if Cockos were teenagers with no idea what they were doing.
Conversely.... "My favorite FR can't possibly be hard to code" even though they really have no idea whatsoever - so in reality I see all of this as a 50/50 sword cutting both ways and it requires everyone realizing that... instead of rooting for their pet side at all costs so to speak.

In that regard you are right, it is just like politics and not really about the core problem.
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Old 12-03-2019, 04:10 PM   #109
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Part of my stats post was hinting you are probably right in some form but how do you know your sample set is not partially anecdotal based on the fact that much of what you do is blogging issues with software, which by it's very nature means you will be coming in contact with disgruntled users in some form in a weighted fashion? I'm not claiming it, but seems it might be worth considering since possibly 80% of the user base doesn't use forums at all.

I can't tell you that you are wrong or right, I've not seen it myself but I also purposely maintain a two-forum maximum because... If more than that, then I'm not actually doing much of the thing the forums are about.
It's entirely possible that I am exposed to biased responses, but even some of the "top" or most notable REAPER users agree with me (even in this thread!).

Just like me putting "REAPER sucks" in the title got you going, an innocuous (and/or even correct) "that's a dumb idea" can really set someone off to go tell their friends about how awful this place is (in their mind).

Look at how most of us here view the Steinberg forums, and they don't even tolerate the level of banter that's allowed here. Obviously this forum is more helpful, but the negativity level can also be significantly higher. Maybe that puts into perspective what it can feel like as an 'outsider' looking in to this community.
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Old 12-03-2019, 04:21 PM   #110
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Obviously this forum is more helpful, but the negativity level can also be significantly higher.
Maybe the two are related? Perhaps all you get with forums are trade-offs, and no happy medium?
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Old 12-03-2019, 04:31 PM   #111
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Maybe the two are related? Perhaps all you get with forums are trade-offs, and no happy medium?
I know that's not true. There are software forums that are almost purely high-quality help.
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Old 12-03-2019, 04:46 PM   #112
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I know that's not true. There are software forums that are almost purely high-quality help.
The only other Daw specific forum I've been active on was Logic Pro Help.

The thing is, it's a lot easier to be helpful in a specific manner with Logic, because there is just one way of doing things.

With REAPER, you can get many misses and near-misses with suggestions, because the workflow is so customisable. As long as suggestions are aimed at helping, I don't have a problem with that; I see it as the nature of the beast.

I do agree that the "why would you want to do that", or "I don't need that" posts can get tiresome, but again it comes down to the crazy amount of stuff you can get REAPER to do, IMO. You wouldn't get "why would you want to do that" in the Logic forums because everything Logic can do has a dictated function and workflow.
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Old 12-03-2019, 05:22 PM   #113
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I tried to make it clear that I was relaying the opinion that I both hear and see repeated. I very clearly failed at that.

Outside the forum, I can say for certain that there is a rather poor reputation of this place. I can understand it.

My personal opinion is that this place is easily the most helpful audio software forum out there, but it also seems to tolerate a completely unnecessary amount of bickering, name calling, politics, blah blah. I think it's "worth it" (assuming that'd be a consideration), and the ratio of good:bad favours good quite a bit.

But it's the sort of thing where you can call someone handsome for 10 days in a row and they won't say a word, but call them ugly once and.... whammo. The negativity sticks.

That said... I wish all the attention in this thread was being given to the takes system instead
Not sure what universe I am in but I see very little bickering and name calling here. This forum is incredibly civil and helpful for me.
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Old 12-03-2019, 05:37 PM   #114
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Not too long ago I started a post asking for a suggestion on how to handle a minor MIDI problem that I continue to have. Zero responses. I posted it again a week or two later in the bug section, not even sure if it was a bug or just me. Zero responses.

The original poster here is correct. If you start a thread about something like "Reaper Sucks" or - the the most ridiculous thread of all time - "Compression is for kids", then all of a sudden everyone is an expert and can set you straight.

Chalk up a win for the OP.

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Old 12-03-2019, 05:43 PM   #115
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Even given the responses to this post, I think the point has been proved fairly well.
Unfortunately very true. I already thought that by reading the first replies.
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Old 12-03-2019, 06:23 PM   #116
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Not too long ago I started a post asking for a suggestion on had to handle a minor MIDI problem that I continue to have. Zero responses. I posted it again a week or two later in the bug section, not even sure if it was a bug or just me. Zero responses.

The original poster here is correct. If you start a thread about something like "Reaper Sucks" or - the the most ridiculous thread of all time - "Compression is for kids", then all of a sudden everyone is an expert and can set you straight.

Chalk up a win for the OP.
Please dont associate my compression is for kids with this clickbait thread. My thread was based in a Bruce Swedien post and was not intended as clickbait.
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Old 12-03-2019, 06:40 PM   #117
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Please dont associate my compression is for kids with this clickbait thread. My thread was based in a Bruce Swedien post and was not intended as clickbait.
Sure it was. It's designed to draw a line in the sand over something completely subjective. Of course all that is going on while I'm in a ghost town trying to solve a small problem.
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Old 12-03-2019, 06:52 PM   #118
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Not too long ago I started a post asking for a suggestion on how to handle a minor MIDI problem that I continue to have. Zero responses. I posted it again a week or two later in the bug section, not even sure if it was a bug or just me. Zero responses.
If there are zero responses it almost always means those reading didn't understand or simply had no idea - like me for example, I found one of those posts but I don't use MIDI much so I literally have no idea - however, you could have just politely bumped the thread because I can assure you there are enough people here who would gladly help if they know the answer and/or didn't miss the post somehow or what happens to me very often... "note to self, follow up on that question you saw" then my old ass forgets.

It seems reasonable to me to ask in the thread why there are no responses before coming to the conclusion the forum sucks. And besides, one of your MIDI posts does not have zero responses.

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Chalk up a win for the OP.
Threads nor posts should be about winning or losing.
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Old 12-03-2019, 07:46 PM   #119
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I think your friend summed it up nicely.

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at one point i was spending more time tweaking REAPER to work for writing music rather than just writing music.
I think Reaper would make an amazing partner if we could work through our problems, but I just can't look past her homely appearance and severe drinking problem.

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Old 12-03-2019, 11:27 PM   #120
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Tottaly agree!
I totally disagree.

A "-1" comment should be as valid as a "+1" comment.

Meaning: here is (exactly) one person who thinks that a prioritization of this issue vs others would (not) be welcome.

Feels like democracy .

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