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09-08-2018, 12:47 AM
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#121
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
Posts: 797
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luster
I don't know every MIDI controller out there but at least the BCR and Novation ones and MIDI feedback is a pretty simple mechanism: Every time the value which is mapped to the controller changes due to mouse or automation or even MIDI CC, the software sends out those CC values to the connected controller.
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Yes, that works with BCR, Novation (Automap based with software MIDI bridge) and probably with 1-2 other devices. But for BCR quite sophisticated solutions are already written.
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Meaning rotaries with LEDs around
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Most use Mackie encoding, it is special to support several modes for rings (pan/spread/etc). Other have own encoding for that (f.e. Novation on hardware side).
Partially works with Mackie touch sensitive faders (and a like). But here you want special processing for "touch".
Without touch sensitivity, that approach will fight with your fingers every time you try to move the fader.
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or endless encoders with a display above.
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Display usually can also show the parameter name/value, and that is possible with device specific procedure only.
The same for pads with different colors. Auto-lighting pads require special logic, some controllers use different MIDI for the feedback (f.e. one strip Faderport), etc., etc., etc.... I am long time dealing with a long list of controllers
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Not hard to implement and powerful.
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Everything is easy, till you really try to do it.
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There are nice disco light videos of BCRs making a light show. Of course you can go crazy with this stuff.
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And that is what people really expect from the "integration". The feedback itself is just the upper part of iceberg.
F.e. you may want to see current level for volume encoders rings of BCR when in play/record mode and not turning them. I mean the number of hardware controls/indicators is almost always less then the amount of information you want to see.
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09-08-2018, 01:24 AM
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#122
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,686
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This boils down to the need of a solution that works with custom-provided definition files that can be adopted for any (or at least most of) current and future Surface devices and (most of) all viable possible workflows (e.g. plugin parameter support, paging, ...).
As this should be possible without requiring programmers' skills; such files should be (necessarily rather complex) parameter definitions (in text files and/or handled by a dedicated utility) rather than scripts.
Happily such a thing can be provided without needing Reaper itself being modified, and hence there actually is hope that it will happen.
Exactly this (done as a Reaper extension) is what Geoff currently is hard working on.
-Michael
Last edited by mschnell; 09-08-2018 at 02:55 AM.
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09-08-2018, 01:58 AM
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#123
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 642
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@azslow3
Ok, with motorized faders and automation it gets tricky because of the touch part. For me it's about switching between plugins (and there mapping on the BCR) and get a visual clue what's going on without looking at the screen (e.g. EQ mapped looks different then a compressor). With a "Send feedback (MIDI CC value out) everytime the parameter / mapping changes" feature this would work.
Of course a Mackie HUI like integration is way more complex but that's not I am asking for. IMHO it's an outdated standard. All vendors (hard- as software) should have developed something futureproof years ago for the benefit of all but here we are with nice looking hardware and a lame integration in the software side because the vendors only want to sell units.
BTW, did anybody notice that the market is shifting - not in our favour?
BCR and BCF discontinued. Novation doesn't build classic MIDI controllers anymore. Either you have to pay a lot to get a non-perfect Mackie HUI like controller or you pay less (50 bucks) for a very compromised package with way less features.
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09-08-2018, 03:05 AM
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#124
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luster
BCR and BCF discontinued.
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That indeed is a shame, but as theses are really old designs, I don't think that it's astonishing.
And in fact they were not really done for DAW control, but more for general purpose.
The XTouch series seems like a great move forward of Behringer's. I very happily use the XTouch Compact (in "native" / "general purpose" mode for controlling my life keyboard setup (using Reaper and a set of dedicated JSFXes I did for that purpose - including "feefback"). This device can be switched to "MC-mode" to work with DAW setups that can't be set to user-defined modes.
Moreover they just released the "One" that provides a dedicated DAW control layout.
Anyway, as any dedicated usage case needs a special setting to provide the desired workflow when using a certain DAW and a certain Control Surface device, I doubt that any "official communication standard" (be same based on Midi, OSC or any other underlying protocol) can be defined. The "MC" protocol seems to come as close as it can get, but obviously lacks in many aspects, when you want certain details to support your preferred workflow.
BTW.: Native instruments with their "Komplete Kontrol" keyboards seems to just have switched from a hackable Midi based protocol to something propriety loosely based on OSC for DAW communication.
-Michael
Last edited by mschnell; 09-08-2018 at 03:15 AM.
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09-08-2018, 05:28 AM
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#125
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: home is where the heart is
Posts: 12,096
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I've (re-)posted this at some point already, but this should make it quite clear what this FR is about (implementation in another DAW):
(from page 2 of this thread)
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09-08-2018, 08:26 AM
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#126
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
Posts: 797
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofish
I've (re-)posted this at some point already, but this should make it quite clear what this FR is about (implementation in another DAW):
(from page 2 of this thread)
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That is clear. My point is that works for limited set of devices (most of which are discontinued) and can not compete with dedicated integration.
REAPER has no support for the whole class of (modern) Ableton oriented devices which need MIDI pre-processing, content/control split and feedback from MIDI tracks (like Push). I think that is important to add. But that is completely different topic.
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09-08-2018, 09:01 AM
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#127
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Heidelberg, Germany
Posts: 797
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luster
@azslow3
Ok, with motorized faders and automation it gets tricky because of the touch part. For me it's about switching between plugins (and there mapping on the BCR) and get a visual clue what's going on without looking at the screen (e.g. EQ mapped looks different then a compressor). With a "Send feedback (MIDI CC value out) everytime the parameter / mapping changes" feature this would work.
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So you want good integration for BCR. No reason to generalize
I have observed some existing solutions for REAPER, not sure how good they are. There is powerful integration with Sonar for that device, created by smart user of my platform. He had to spend weeks to create/test/tune it (in addition to years I spend for the platform). That is about how "easy" to do such things...
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Of course a Mackie HUI like integration is way more complex but that's not I am asking for. IMHO it's an outdated standard.
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Till someone start to produce cheap devices with more controls then on Mackie (AVID has them, with different protocol) or controls with different resolution (faders are still up to 10bit), MCP/HUI/MIDI can cover all needs and so can not be declared outdated.
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Either you have to pay a lot to get a non-perfect Mackie HUI like controller or you pay less (50 bucks) for a very compromised package with way less features.
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I am not sure what you mean by "not perfect" Mackie devices.
But just to make it clear, "HUI" is a protocol for ProTools, "Logic control" is a protocol for Logic, "Mackie Control Protocol" is a variation (extension? the same?) of "Logic control" protocol. So, just protocols, not devices. Original devices for HUI had more encoders, the rest is almost the same as Mackie Control Pro (which has no significant changes in functionality since emagic times). HUI use NRPNs (2 short MIDI messages) to transfer values with more then 7bit (faders) and also "violates" some MIDI rules. Logic/MCP has no such "defects", but can not support more then 16 faders throw one MIDI port (protocol specify only 9, but there are another 7 similar messages available).
Where MIDI fails in general is display. Some text can be transferred with SysEx even using original bandwidth, but that is on limit and graphics is "no go". Old devices do not have graphical displays, but with new technologies that is no longer too expensive nor big/heavy.
The industry could just introduce "simple" rule to teleport plug-ins (VST, etc.) interfaces to controller displays (not exist) and let controller decide what it should control (attempts are EUCON, NKS, VIP). But at the moment there is no "main stream" for that.
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09-08-2018, 10:25 AM
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#128
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,686
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In fact Midi bandwidth is no issue any more, as Midi in most cases is transferred via USB which always is by far fast enough for such purposes.
You can tunnel anything via Midi, be it by means of SysEx or by non standard use of 3 byte messages. (E.g. the MC protocol uses the Midi "channel" bits in a non-standard way. But of course all this is propriety and needs to be agreed upon on both sides.
-Michael
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09-08-2018, 11:16 AM
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#129
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,686
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FWIW, I tentatively plan to add a display to my life setup. Here the text is generated by a JSFX. So the obvious transfer channel is Midi via USB. Now there are cheap devices with a USB equipped Arduino board and an OLED display. Midi via USB software for Arduino is available, but same can't do SysEx.
So I could use this protocol:
- a dedicated Midi channel for text messages
- Note-On messages for setting the display pointer (Note = x, velocity = y)
- Note-Off messages for the text, two characters per message.
- CCs for additional attributes, such as Text size.
-Michael
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09-08-2018, 11:38 AM
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#130
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 642
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azslow3
Till someone start to produce cheap devices with more controls then on Mackie (AVID has them, with different protocol) or controls with different resolution (faders are still up to 10bit), MCP/HUI/MIDI can cover all needs and so can not be declared outdated.
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Outdated for sure. Those level meters on the MCU? A joke. The digit limit for parameter and channel names on the display. Looks like old limited tech. You mentioned Avid, who show what is possible. But of course every vendor doesn't look outside their box. That's the reason I avoid Push - not much use in Reaper.
The new Behringer units are less bang for the buck compared to the old BCR and BCF and even suggest features which are not there (different colored displays per channel) - only if you connect them to a Behringer digital mixer. Yeah.
In the gearslutz thread there are some voices criticizing the way the fader move with automation. No firmware update for that.
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09-08-2018, 12:45 PM
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#131
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,686
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Getting advanced features "out of the box" is just wishful thinking. Even Firmware updates will not help.
-Michael
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09-09-2018, 07:41 AM
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#132
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Leuven
Posts: 99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azslow3
The only way to get "MIDI feedback" without workarounds is to buy a controller with native support for the DAW(s) in question:
1. each controller has own "MIDI feedback", many modern controllers have feedback which is implemented without MIDI, using closed proprietary schemes.
2. hardware developers know all details, other people (including DAW developers) usually do not have that information
3. you pay for the software when you buy the device, and you pay to its developers only. DAW (and other) developers receive no single cent from that money
In reality, the problem is not in MIDI feedback but in complicated logic between the device and the DAW. That part is almost impossible to define at reasonably flexible level without programming. That is why all DAWs have API for that, instead or in addition to "simple MIDI learn". Some DAWs have open API (REAPER, Sonar, Ableton, Bitwig) so third party developers can help (that task require programming skills). Other support fixed set of devices in cooperation with manufacturers (in most cases inside the same concern, f.e. Avid and Presonus).
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Thanx for your comment. I do not agree. I come from Cubase and it had midi feedback in the early days, called generic remote. I used that for years with my BCR2000's and it worked great. Ok, you had to do a lot of configuration first to set it up, but with a saved template it worked great. Now I have a NI Maschine too, it reads the parameters from the plugin you want and you can assign them to the hardware, I think it works as you mentioned with the other controller. Buying a new controller for just that is crazy in my opinion.Btw, find one with as many knobs as a BCR... Switching your DAW is so much cheaper, but not only that. I know all my midi controllers inside out, not planning to sell them for a controller that fixes the leak of midi feedback in Reaper, that is just not how logic works in my head.
BTW there is basic midi feedback for simple things like mixerfaders and stuff already in Reaper. I still hope it will come 1 day or even a reaction that it will never be implemented will be an answer, so I could look out for another solution.
Apart from that, Reaper is just awesome.
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10-10-2018, 01:09 PM
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#133
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 78
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Apologies if this has been answered, but is the X Touch Mini capable of receiving feedback from Reaper so if I switch channels the parameters jump?
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10-10-2018, 02:46 PM
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#134
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,686
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- supposedly this depends on the workflow you have in mind i.e. what you want to control (Mixer volume, parameters, plugin parameters, ...)
- I don't suppose this is decently possible by Reaper itself, but there are several threads in this forum on several extensions, e.g. -> https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=183143. I seem to remember X Touch Mini has been mentioned (I do have an XTouch compact) .
-Michael
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10-10-2018, 04:54 PM
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#135
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell
- supposedly this depends on the workflow you have in mind i.e. what you want to control (Mixer volume, parameters, plugin parameters, ...)
- I don't suppose this is decently possible by Reaper itself, but there are several threads in this forum on several extensions, e.g. -> https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=183143. I seem to remember X Touch Mini has been mentioned (I do have an XTouch compact) .
-Michael
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Awesome thanks. I’ll dig through.
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04-26-2019, 03:49 PM
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#136
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 9
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I don't understand why it seems to be such a problem to send specified data to a controller for Reaper (or other DAWs)?
In Native Instruments Traktor you can just choose each parameter you want and send it where you want. Its extremely comfortable. You just get de MIDI data sheet of your controller and lets go. You can make almost every controller work the way you want and show what you want. Espacially with self build MIDI-Controllers it is very nice!
I know NI Traktor has much less parameters than a expandable DAW and I can imagine to send complex data like track names is not that easy via MIDI but is there no way to make the "simple" MIDI-Outs work? Like "Track 8 pan - to - ControlerXYZ, MIDI CC 08, etc."?
I just don't feel well to buy (multiple) DAW-controllers for a lot of money and then to rely on some good people who somehow adapt drivers from other DAWs like Bitwig to work for Reaper. It's very cool that its even possible, but what when my OS changes? When a new Reaper update breaks something or a new nessesary firmware is coming up?
+1 from me
Last edited by Jasmin; 04-26-2019 at 04:04 PM.
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04-26-2019, 11:49 PM
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#137
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,686
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There are many Controllers, and there are infinite ways you might want to act and react. And many users don't want to invest a lot of time in setting this up.
That is why the Reaper world is evolving right now seem perfect to me.
The handling of Control Surfaces is done in plugins.
Some already come bundled with Reaper, some are available for a dedicated hardware and some (e.g. "CSI") are crafted in a way that you can define your workflow or load such definitions already provided by others.
-Michael
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04-29-2019, 03:31 AM
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#138
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
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Nah, this stuff is just too easy to setup everywhere else I look.
All we can do is keep asking for it. I even put up another request the other day for the simplest form of midi feedback.
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=219754
Ok, it's slightly more complex than "send the same value back to the same device,cc". Still, the situation deserves a measure of ridicule.
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05-01-2019, 09:19 AM
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#139
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airon
Nah, this stuff is just too easy to setup everywhere else I look.
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yea this is how I feel.
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05-24-2019, 07:06 AM
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#140
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 1,343
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Woah! Is this really the case, no way to get a midi controller to follow reaper parameter values?
That sucks, I really like the Midi Fighter Twister I just bought.
__________________
Magnus Lindberg Productions - VRTKL Audio - Redmount Studios
magnuslindberg.com
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05-24-2019, 12:11 PM
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#141
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlprod
Woah! Is this really the case, no way to get a midi controller to follow reaper parameter values?
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As written above, many (Mackie compatible) controllers are supported out of the box (with predefined workflow), and the free CSI extension plugin is underdevelopment and looks really promising for supporting close to any controller device.
-Michael
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05-24-2019, 12:28 PM
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#142
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlprod
Woah! Is this really the case, no way to get a midi controller to follow reaper parameter values?
That sucks, I really like the Midi Fighter Twister I just bought.
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Nektar Panorama P1. I use it with Reaper, it follows every parameter.
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05-25-2019, 11:33 AM
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#143
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Berlin
Posts: 11,817
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Support this simplified request that tries to fit the simplest form of midi feedback in to Reapers framework.
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=219754
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05-25-2019, 03:36 PM
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#144
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: France
Posts: 9,875
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Note that Realearn has experimental support for MIDI Feedback https://www.helgoboss.org/projects/realearn/
(maybe it can solve basic cases ? I Didn't try this particular feature, don't know how reliable it is).
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05-29-2019, 09:17 PM
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#145
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: May 2019
Posts: 11
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I know relearn, and for me this is not the fastest function - and sometimes even configured relearn does not load settings ... The fastest and the simplest function is "learn" from the plugin - but this option does not work midi feedback. Is it so complicated that you can not send parameters to the hardware controller?
reaper is the best among DAW, functionally destroys even the all-purpose Pro Tools Ultimate and does not have midi feedback? Gentlemen, programmers .... Come on
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05-30-2019, 01:43 AM
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#146
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 4,812
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and unfortunatly relearn in my trial handles with more lag compared with using directly midi/osc learn from reaper , which for me is a big no go.
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05-30-2019, 10:34 AM
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#147
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 155
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Yeah I've tried ReaLearn also, it works really well for some things, but I've found it to be fairly unstable overall.
Having simple built in feedback options would make things a lot simpler for a lot of use cases where more elaborate control scripts aren't needed.
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04-21-2020, 11:01 PM
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#148
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 429
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+1000 to this
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04-28-2020, 02:33 AM
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#149
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 2
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Come on Devs, isn't this what we are supposed to be doing in 'lockdown' sorting out all those jobs we never get round to normaly.
Please dont ignore osc. The rest of it works great, but it could be so much better.
Do something different TODAY!
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11-09-2020, 06:52 AM
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#150
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Dnipro, Ukraine
Posts: 13
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Please Reaper Devs. I miss so hard midi feedback.
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11-09-2020, 02:55 PM
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#151
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,686
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Did you try CSI ? Or do you want something very special.
-Michael
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11-10-2020, 12:14 AM
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#152
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Dnipro, Ukraine
Posts: 13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mschnell
Did you try CSI ? Or do you want something very special.
-Michael
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Thanks Michael,
Well, I use Linux, is this special ? :-)
But of course, CSI is very cool and I would not hesitate a second to use it. A very flexible solution, but unfortunately no option for me at the moment.
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11-10-2020, 11:38 AM
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#153
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Krefeld, Germany
Posts: 14,686
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Yep. Linux is special regarding CSI, as Geoff only supports Win ad Mac.
But as he made the project open source, I suppose somebody will do a Linux port rather soon.
-Michael
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12-11-2021, 11:45 AM
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#154
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,618
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Stumbled on this thread and thought I'd mention that if you use Reaticulate, it has the ability to feed CCs back to control surfaces.
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12-11-2021, 12:30 PM
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#155
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Human being with feelings
Join Date: Jun 2019
Posts: 2,872
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+1 Didn’t read through the whole thread but I also need midi feedback.
My use would be to put MIDI onto a folder track and have it played by the VSTIs on all child tracks.
Currently it is only possible to play instruments layered on several tracks by adding an extra track that sends MIDI to all these tracks. This is not only annoying because of the extra track but also tedious because you can’t play the instrument on your controller and add effects to that track to shape the sound while playing. You have to switch forth and back between your MIDI send track and the bus/folder track for playing vs tweaking the sound.
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