12x12 or square can be a bit of a pain because you get the same frequencies on both dimensions.
I think minimum cubic volume is 1500 cubic feet or larger. Mine's just under that and and I deal with regardless of what the below states it but wanted to give you a heads up, however.....
We all make music and make it happen regardless of conditions by learning our rooms so that is really what matters most, but figured I'd brain dump what I could for you.
So, how do we calculate room volume which is the length, width, height? Good simple formula. Take the length of your room, the width of your room and the height of your room and multiply the three. That will give you your cubic volume, cubic feet of volume. If you’re overseas, cubic metric volume, you just have to get this number in your head. So I went through our database and I came up with three divisions. We have 206 rooms built and measured in our database and I took all those rooms and I broke them down into three areas and I think these three areas will help. They’re all based on volume.
Red Zone Room
So if your room length, width, and height is less than 1,500 feet, please, cubic feet, please find another room. Why do I say this? It’s just too small for any energy to be managed correctly. Let’s take the low-frequency energy. If you’re going to manage low frequency in a room less than 1,500 cubic feet, the amount of treatment that you have to put in the room will make it so small that you wouldn’t be able to sit in it. So less than 1,500 cubic feet, absolutely not. Find another room.
Yellow Zone Room
Less than 3,000 cubic feet. Now, these can vary, you know the length, width, and height, they can all be different. But it’s the cubic feet we’re looking at because we’re talking about a box of pressure here. So less than 3000 cubic feet, problematic. Yes, it can be treated. Yes, it can be dealt with depending on usage and what you’re trying to achieve in that room. Less than 3,000 cubic feet work for some usages but not for others. So it’s – when I call problematic, it’s treatable, depending on the usage. And you have to figure out what you’re trying to do in the room versus how much treatment you’re going to need in the room.
Green Zone Room – Best
The next one is greater than 4,500 cubic feet. Anything over 4,500 cubic feet is treatable and usable almost in all forms and usages. So, that will give you some idea of three different levels to look at. If you’re considering a room for extra usage, look at the length, width, and height, get the volume, look at this chart and I’m going to include the chart at the end so you can visualize it. And just look at where your dimensions fall within that chart and realize that if it’s less than 1,500 cubic feet, find another room. Just do that, you’ll be much better off. Less than 3,000 cubic feet, we can treat it. It’s problematic, we have pressure issues, we have RT 60 reverberation time issues but it is treatable depending on usage. Now there are qualifications for the usage. It won’t work for maybe a live room with drums but it might work for a voice room or a control room. So all depends on usage. 4,500 cubic feet and up, plenty of space, plenty of space to manage a low-frequency pressure and the reflections or RT 60 times. In this graphic here that I’m referring to, you can see the breakdown and we have it colored in red, yellow and green. Red is a no go acoustically and yellow is problematic depending on usage. So keep that chart in mind and refer to it often if you’re looking at the usage and pressure and volume in rooms.
__________________ Music is what feelings sound like.
12x12 or square can be a bit of a pain because you get the same frequencies on both dimensions.
I think minimum cubic volume is 1500 cubic feet or larger. Mine's just under that and and I deal with regardless of what the below states it but wanted to give you a heads up.
We all make music and make it happen regardless of conditions by learning our rooms but figured I'd brain dump what I could for you.
I'm well below the acceptable room size, but like you I work with what I have. I just played the first six or seven songs on my music page using my main JBLs but with my sub switched in. One of the older songs in particular seemed excessive in the lows so I paced the floor while it was playing and could actually hear the reinforced spots in the room along with the weaker ones.
The sub makes it more obvious what's going on. I never thought of walking through the spots where waves are running into each other till today, but I can visualize it in my head now.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
I'm definitely going to do some bass traps of some sort. Here's a practical question, how does the bass in my mixes sit on your monitors and much superior room? Link is in my sig, and you can quickly skip through the songs. They get older the farther you go.
I should prolly mention too that every project is an experiment for me, so for instance the newest project (Slinky Walk), I recorded playing my bass through an amp with a mic'd speaker cab, which will sound different than the next older song (Inside Out) where I recorded my bass plugged through a bass amp modeling preamp and then direct to the audio interface.
I'll preface by saying that I'm not listening to any artistic choices or even the music. I'm listening underneath all of that, purely from a response perspective. It'd be fun to hear what others think as well.
The kick level sounds good, but right now it overpowers the bass in my opinion (both DI and mic'd), which tells me that there may be issues hearing in your room what the bass is doing, yet you know exactly what you want out of the kick. But coupled with that, the mixes have a fair amount of upper mid, I think too much, which makes me wonder, given our context, if perhaps you're hearing too much bass in your mix position, and not noticing that the high mids are as loud as they are.
Upon listening in headphones, all that mid and high mid splash goes away, even in pro cans, as 99% of them are scooped in the mids. What I'm saying is that the mixes sound better in headphones, which also points to the room. I still want a little more tight low end, even in the cans.
The older mixes don't do that as much, though I still hear it. Was the older stuff mixed in the same room? If so, I wonder if maybe your ears are getting complacent with the room.
You know what they say about opinions, but mine is that you'll absolutely benefit from trapping in the corners, and absorption wherever else you can. You'll be able to turn the bass up without doing it blindly, and you'll better hear how the kick and bass are working together, or fighting, as the case may be.
One last quick thing - if/when you mix in headphones, turn the monitors off while doing so, or it'll give you a very false impression of the low end.
__________________
Nothing gets constructed by tearing it down.
Latest projects at www.craigpatterson.com
Yea, mix position is the only thing you have to worry about other than spots where you are actually micing something. We're rootin' for ya.
Thanks Karbo. I'm guessing that the foam bass traps I see like the Auralex LENRD traps are not going to be as effective as something like a homebrew triangular cut stack of rockwool, which I'm thinking would have more density.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
I'll preface by saying that I'm not listening to any artistic choices or even the music. I'm listening underneath all of that, purely from a response perspective. It'd be fun to hear what others think as well.
Thanks for taking the time Craig, and that was the angle I was hoping you were taking. Looking at it as a frequency response review.
Quote:
The kick level sounds good, but right now it overpowers the bass in my opinion (both DI and mic'd), which tells me that there may be issues hearing in your room what the bass is doing, yet you know exactly what you want out of the kick. But coupled with that, the mixes have a fair amount of upper mid, I think too much, which makes me wonder, given our context, if perhaps you're hearing too much bass in your mix position, and not noticing that the high mids are as loud as they are.
The overpowering kick might coincide with a recent change I've made in the kick channel. My kick is a tiny 16" BeBop kick, and in the last two or three projects I added a Pultec EQ doing the push/pull thing at 30Hz hoping to make up for the small diameter of the drum, and very possibly overshot that mark.
I bought the acoustic drums just to jam on, never expecting to use them for recording, and had been using the pad kit with Superior Drummer 2, but one day I threw a couple of mics on the little BeBop kit and decided to start trying to use it for recording.
The high mids issue I've got nothing I can think of to pin that on, and it may very well be a result of the room.
Quote:
Upon listening in headphones, all that mid and high mid splash goes away, even in pro cans, as 99% of them are scooped in the mids. What I'm saying is that the mixes sound better in headphones, which also points to the room. I still want a little more tight low end, even in the cans.
I do use my Sony MDR7506 phones to check what I've mixed on the JBLs, and do make minor adjustments based on what I hear in those cans, but I always check it again in the JBLs and Yamahas as the final word.
Also, I dunno if this makes any difference, but I do mix at a fairly high volume level and have noticed at quieter levels the balance is noticeably different. Karbo and I were having a conversation recently about Fletcher-Munson levels.
Quote:
The older mixes don't do that as much, though I still hear it. Was the older stuff mixed in the same room? If so, I wonder if maybe your ears are getting complacent with the room.
Everything on my music page was done in the same room, but every single project has something different than the previous one as things evolve. For instance, the Ludwig drums I never planned to use for recording originally had the tiny cymbals from a cocktail drum kit I sold, so some songs have 10" clacky sounding hihats. One by one I've replaced all the tiny cymbals, and also added mics along the way. The oldest stuff with acoustic drums only has a mono overhead and kick mic. The most recent recordings have 7 mics on the drums (4 close, 2 overhead, plus mono room).
I can't say that the ever evolving roster of gear could account for all the differences between current vs. older projects but it probably does have some influence.
Quote:
You know what they say about opinions, but mine is that you'll absolutely benefit from trapping in the corners, and absorption wherever else you can. You'll be able to turn the bass up without doing it blindly, and you'll better hear how the kick and bass are working together, or fighting, as the case may be.
Several guys in this forum have taken panels of rockwool, cut it into stacks of triangles and wrap it up in some nice looking fabric. What are your thoughts about that compared to something like Auralex LENRD traps or the even more affordable Ultimate Acoustics traps.
Either of the ready made ones would likely fit in this room. The Ultimate Acoustics are 24" tall where my maximum height is 30" tall for a matched pair at the front of the room.
One last quick thing - if/when you mix in headphones, turn the monitors off while doing so, or it'll give you a very false impression of the low end.
I always mute the monitors when checking on phones. I never do the mix in the phones, but might make very minor changes if something sticks out too much or seems lost in the mix. After that I make sure I think it agrees in the air with speakers.
Thanks again for all your insight Craig.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
The overpowering kick might coincide with a recent change I've made in the kick channel.
Let me clarify - the kick is not overpowering the mix at all. It's just that it's overpowering the bass.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennbo
Also, I dunno if this makes any difference, but I do mix at a fairly high volume level and have noticed at quieter levels the balance is noticeably different. Karbo and I were having a conversation recently about Fletcher-Munson levels.
One misses a lot at high levels - that should only be to make yourself smile at the end of a mix session, or to impress clients. You should be able to talk over your mix level. Another tip I got many years ago was to turn the mix up and leave the room. You should still be able to hear everything equally represented.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glennbo
Several guys in this forum have taken panels of rockwool, cut it into stacks of triangles and wrap it up in some nice looking fabric. What are your thoughts about that compared to something like Auralex LENRD traps or the even more affordable Ultimate Acoustics traps.
Either of the ready made ones would likely fit in this room. The Ultimate Acoustics are 24" tall where my maximum height is 30" tall for a matched pair at the front of the room.
I've never been pleased with the performance of foam, which both of those appear to be. They're cheap, which makes them very attractive, but I'm rockwool or 703-705, ride or die. Low end doesn't care much about foam, even if it's dense. I would strongly suggest that, if you don't make your own, you go with something like RealTraps: https://realtraps.com/products.htm
I'll save you a little suspense - they're expensive. But they're worth every penny. Here are the prices: https://realtraps.com/prices.htm
EDIT: There's an absolute truckload of info on that site - Ethan Winer is a very well-trusted source, and he knows what he's talking about. He's sold the business to one of the employees who's been there forever, so it should be in good hands. Ethan's current site is informational: https://ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html It's also full of great info. A complete course on sound treatment in each location.
Also, I can't paste it from that site, as it's a table, but look on this page ( https://ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html ) for a table on comparing foam and 703-705,
The foam may do you some good. I won't say they're worthless. But I don't think they'll solve your issues.
__________________
Nothing gets constructed by tearing it down.
Latest projects at www.craigpatterson.com
Last edited by CraigPatterson; 04-09-2021 at 06:23 PM.
Let me clarify - the kick is not overpowering the mix at all. It's just that it's overpowering the bass.
And specifically in a low frequency range that is looking like the biggest issue in my room. My sticking a Pultec on the little kick to goose frequencies it almost doesn't have can't be helping, although I thought it sounded better when I introduced it a few projects back.
Quote:
One misses a lot at high levels - that should only be to make yourself smile at the end of a mix session, or to impress clients. You should be able to talk over your mix level. Another tip I got many years ago was to turn the mix up and leave the room. You should still be able to hear everything equally represented.
One of the things I regularly do is leave a mix running and head for the kitchen to get a cup of coffee.
As for the mixing loud thing. I play all the instruments myself with an occasional spotlight solo from friends, and I have no clients. I only recently became aware of the Fletcher-Munson curves, and have just always mixed my music loud.
Not blaring loud, but definitely not at have a conversation levels. After Karbo mentioned Fletcher-Munson, I looked up some articles on it and one producer who I forget his name, said he looks at it like the listener is either engaged in listening, or you are just background music to them, so he said he mixes for the listeners. That kind of validated for me the levels I've used doing my mixes since the mid 70s with tape.
I play my own recorded music at the same level as I'd play a brand new Donald Fagen or Sting album, and the same level I use when mixing my own tracks.
Quote:
I've never been pleased with the performance of foam, which both of those appear to be. They're cheap, which makes them very attractive, but I'm rockwool or 703-705, ride or die. Low end doesn't care much about foam, even if it's dense. I would strongly suggest that, if you don't make your own, you go with something like RealTraps: https://realtraps.com/products.htm
I'll save you a little suspense - they're expensive. But they're worth every penny. Here are the prices: https://realtraps.com/prices.htm
EDIT: There's an absolute truckload of info on that site - Ethan Winer is a very well-trusted source, and he knows what he's talking about. He's sold the business to one of the employees who's been there forever, so it should be in good hands. Ethan's current site is informational: https://ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html It's also full of great info. A complete course on sound treatment in each location.
I've known Ethan since the 90s when we all used to hang on the Cakewalk NNTP forums. I made a video with Vegas of me playing all the parts on a song, and the next day he put one out that is him playing all the parts but light years ahead of what I did.
Edit: He had obviously been working on his video for weeks or months and it was pure coincidence that we both did videos with ourselves playing all the parts and put them out days apart.
I found his. Mine has long since been removed as he put me to shame.
I haven't talked to him in a long long time though. I had looked the site over, so I already knew those traps were expensive.
I'm leaning heavily toward the DIY triangular cut stack of rockwool with a nice fabric wrap.
Quote:
Also, I can't paste it from that site, as it's a table, but look on this page ( https://ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html ) for a table on comparing foam and 703-705,
The foam may do you some good. I won't say they're worthless. But I don't think they'll solve your issues.
Thanks for the link to the comparisons. I'll swing over there and take a look, but I think I'm ready to just buy some rockwool and start fabricating my own. I do have a bunch of odds and ends wood scraps in my garage if I decide to make a frame, but I've seen at least one guy out there that just cut triangles out of panels of rockwool, stacked them up and wrapped them in fabric to make them look nice.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
I wonder how they compare with an equal sized stack of triangular cut rockwool. I don't like work, so that's a huge plus in their favor, and they look nice so that's another plus.
Lastly there is the "buy it, put it up, get back to making music" thing which is another plus, but the comparison to a stack of rockwool in effectiveness carries a lot of weight.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
My personal preference for DIY is mineral wool board. One spec to watch is the density. Anything over 35 kg per cubic meter will do.
I've never used foam, cause I couldn't find any open-cell foam of the right density in small quantity for a reasonable price. Besides, foam is unsuitable for bass absorption, which is 90% of the problem in home studios.
__________________
In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
George Orwell
My personal preference for DIY is mineral wool board. One spec to watch is the density. Anything over 35 kg per cubic meter will do.
I've never used foam, cause I couldn't find any open-cell foam of the right density in small quantity for a reasonable price. Besides, foam is unsuitable for bass absorption, which is 90% of the problem in home studios.
I can get a package of ten 47" x 15" x 3" Owens Corning Mineral Wool Insulation Batt for $46.00 at Home Depot.
I wonder if I could get them to cut a whole package like this diagonally, lengthwise, corner to corner with their big table saw. They could probably do the whole thing in two cuts. Then I could just bring them home, wrap them up in some fabric and hang 'em.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
Because Acoustic treatment can be so much fun ... but necessary.
I started making 2, DIY TUBE Traps.
I want to hear/see what this design is capable of.
We already have the 'Chunky Corner' Bass Trapping [KNAUF], as well as
multiple Broadband Absorbers [2'x4'], and both Soft and Hard-backed Ceiling Clouds.
The Tubetrap design is the combined, absorber/diffusor type.
Without spending big $$$, this DIY is the only way I can test for myself.
Finding all the materials .... and tools has taken a bit of time, and finding spare time to work on them has been problematic. Hopefully over this weekend I'll have both fully assembled.
The basic material:
Lowes/Home Depot: 2 - 12" x 48" circular Concrete Forms.
1/4" composite board for the top/bottom caps.
2x2 internal center post to connect caps
Liquid Nails, Silicon Caulk, Staples.
1-1/2" drill bit
John Mansfield Ceiling insulation.
JoAnn's Fabric: 1" Batting
Cover fabric - same used for Broadband absorbers.
Initially, these will be portable, so as to test in various positions and direction.
If effective, I may then add some wooden legs [~ 2' long] ? we'll see.
Hmmm, Pete Townsend seems to be a fan of the ASC Tube Traps. Yow, $1,136.00 for a pair of 13" ones. Are there online plans you are using for your DIY versions?
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
That's about the same format I use. 120 X 60 X 5,5 cm. I usually pay around 55-60 € for a pack of ten. Yours are a little thicker and a little cheaper.
What's the density? Mine are 35 kg/cubic meter. I wouldn't go under 30 kg.
You can even just hang them, without cloth, if it suits the design of the room and decide later if you want to cover them.
I cut them with an electrical bread knife. No need for a saw. Easy and fast. Usually, I make sides out of pine and stretch cloth over them, fastened with staples. No need for a back board. If it's a large wall I need to cover, I stack two of them. That's good down to 10 Hz or so. Since yours are thicker, one layer will probably do the trick.
After placement, I go over them with a vacuum cleaner a few times, over a few days. After that, there seem to be no more fibers coming out.
@ RJHollins
After placing broadband absorbers, I never could find a need for the finer stuff, like tubes. But that's in small rooms.
In really large rooms, these can be the icing on the cake.
We did the local theater, that's now renowned enough to attract international artists for recording. That was handled by professional acousticians from the design stage to the end and they used diffusers, besides broadband absorption.
I couldn't hear any difference before/after the diffusers were placed, but my ears aren't that good. I could measure some difference between 3 and 6 kHz, albeit other things could be responsible for that difference, like the seats that were placed in between the measurements.
Expensive, tho, diffusers. Tailor made.
__________________
In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
George Orwell
On a concrete floor, I would use a good quality epoxy flooring.
you have many different choices as to the colors and it's very durable.
For your Drums, I would place a Dense rubber mat with a wooden floor on top of that for isolation.
That's about the same format I use. 120 X 60 X 5,5 cm. I usually pay around 55-60 € for a pack of ten. Yours are a little thicker and a little cheaper.
What's the density? Mine are 35 kg/cubic meter. I wouldn't go under 30 kg.
Interestingly, the density and R-Factor isn't spec'd for that particular brand and series. I do see others that spec the R-Factor, but not density. I'm guessing there is a correlation between density and R-Factor.
Quote:
You can even just hang them, without cloth, if it suits the design of the room and decide later if you want to cover them.
I've got a box of T-Pins that I used to hang my Sonex tiles. I could probably just stretch some fabric around a 3" panel of Rockwool, and tack it to the wall with four T-Pins which would hold it all together. A friend turned me onto using T-Pins for acoustic tiles. They're great. I pulled all the Sonex foam out of my studio when they installed the carpet a couple of days ago, and it took like five minutes to pull them all down, and about the same to put them back up.
Quote:
I cut them with an electrical bread knife. No need for a saw. Easy and fast. Usually, I make sides out of pine and stretch cloth over them, fastened with staples. No need for a back board. If it's a large wall I need to cover, I stack two of them. That's good down to 10 Hz or so. Since yours are thicker, one layer will probably do the trick.
After placement, I go over them with a vacuum cleaner a few times, over a few days. After that, there seem to be no more fibers coming out.
I don't have an electrical bread knife, so the closest thing for me would be a handheld jigsaw. Can you cut that stuff with a box knife and straight edge? Something like this but wrapped tight in black fabric, or with a speaker grill type frame with fabric to hide the Rockwool looks pretty easy to make.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
Interestingly, the density and R-Factor isn't spec'd for that particular brand and series. I do see others that spec the R-Factor, but not density. I'm guessing there is a correlation between density and R-Factor.
There is a relation between R-factor (and K-factor and C-factor) and density, but it's far from linear. Besides, these are for heat isolation. Nothing useable for acoustics.
Quote:
I don't have an electrical bread knife, so the closest thing for me would be a handheld jigsaw. Can you cut that stuff with a box knife and straight edge? Something like this but wrapped tight in black fabric, or with a speaker grill type frame with fabric to hide the Rockwool looks pretty easy to make.
A large toothed bread knife, even if not electrical is easier than a box knife. Got one of those?
Some use a large wood saw. Works too. One like this:
__________________
In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
George Orwell
There is a relation between R-factor (and K-factor and C-factor) and density, but it's far from linear. Besides, these are for heat isolation. Nothing useable for acoustics.
Looks like maybe R30 in the states is 8 pound, at least one brand I found. Guess I'm gonna need to get more educated on Rockwool.
Quote:
A large toothed bread knife, even if not electrical is easier than a box knife. Got one of those?
Some use a large wood saw. Works too.
I don't have a handsaw like that one, but I do have one of these.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
I second the Sonar works suggestion, just a couple of items for anyone considering:
Sonar Works was not a go in Linux. Might be able to eventually get it to run, but first try it threw a bunch of errors that will have to be diagnosed.
EDIT: I was able to get Sonarworks Reference 3 to run as a Windows plugin in the Linux version of REAPER.
Quote:
3. I urge to shoot the room with Room EQ Wizard to see where things stand, fix what we can, then Sonar Works on top of that. One is really flying blind until they can get in the habit of properly measuring with REW to see what's actually going on.
REW I was able to run as they are more friendly and offer a Linux version. I won't be able to try it until tomorrow though because I haven't hooked any of my mics back up or run snakes Etc. ADA8200 comes in tomorrow, which will give me more options with 16 inputs, so I've held off. Tomorrow I'll get a mic plugged in and see what REW comes back with.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
That would be amazing as it works out to be over 128 kg per cubic meter.
That's a lot. As in too good to be true.
One I saw at Lowes hardware said it was 8# and also R30.
These are another set that I've seen stamped as 8# density. It's seven 3x24x48 panels for $179.
Obviously, that's very good. Even overkill. A measurement should show if that's needed. REW is free. It'll take some time to learn it, but it's worth it!
__________________
In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
George Orwell
Well most of those issues can't occur if there weren't walls. I would at minimum sketch out and measure your room dimensions, including ceiling to floor then use something like this:
Which will calculate and tell you exactly where various low frequencies will exhibit issues and where in the room they will occur. Even with an oddly shaped room you can concentrate on parallel surfaces to glean usable information.
thanks for that useful link karbo
So i plugged in my room dimentions,.and it basically told me..
"you have a problem with the note F"
i havent noticed a problem with the note f
if i turn up my speakers and play the alphabet on my bass nothing seems to stick out.
the bass does seem frappy in mixes though so Im sure i need traps
i just have no idea the size i would need or how many
id like to point out my monitors dont have subs and i dont mix that loud
Obviously, that's very good. Even overkill. A measurement should show if that's needed. REW is free. It'll take some time to learn it, but it's worth it!
Those panels are in my price range, and I've got REW for Linux working, as well as a bridged Windows plugin version of Sonarworks Reference 3 that I haven't yet activated as a demo. Over the next few days I hope to get familiar with those and get some measurements.
Thanks for all your help and insight into all this.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
I can get a package of ten 47" x 15" x 3" Owens Corning Mineral Wool Insulation Batt for $46.00 at Home Depot.
I wonder if I could get them to cut a whole package like this diagonally, lengthwise, corner to corner with their big table saw. They could probably do the whole thing in two cuts. Then I could just bring them home, wrap them up in some fabric and hang 'em.
Saws do not work well on this stuff, or on fiberglass. I put it down on a piece of plywood, put down 2 boards on top on each side of the cut, then used a wallpaper cutting knife (your serrated knife will do fine). I advise you wear gloves, goggles, mask or bandana, and an old long sleeve shirt.
Saws do not work well on this stuff, or on fiberglass. I put it down on a piece of plywood, put down 2 boards on top on each side of the cut, then used a wallpaper cutting knife (your serrated knife will do fine). I advise you wear gloves, goggles, mask or bandana, and an old long sleeve shirt.
Thanks Philbo. The more I wrap my head around this the more I'm starting to think I might not even need to cut it up, and just wrap some 3" panels with fabric, sticking them in the vertical corners, and in the horizontal ones where the wall meets the ceiling.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
My gut feeling is the room needs some trapping, but also that I know the room, and where to have my head positioned for critical listening, so I've been working around it.
Trapping does help, I've got a ceiling trap that spans the whole 20 feet in the back of my studio and is over 6 feet deep in the center. It goes up into the attic where I've got tons of hanging fiberglass all over the place. I know it's helping a lot with the bottom end.
Another question Glennbo, I'm assuming your floor is basically a wood floor sitting on floor joists? If so, I found out years ago that the only way I could get decent drum sound in that circumstance was to have good Shock Mounts on every mic. I built all mine using thin 1.5" plastic pipe, along with the round plastic inserts that came with 10" tape, I had several of them. I also fashioned some plywood to mount them on and cut up a broom handle to use for the part that went in the mic holder. I did something a lot more special for the Kick drum, because the rumble it made through the floor was extreme.
We cut the 2'x4' KNAUF rigid insulation in half [2x2] ...
then cut Diagonal across, to make triangles.
I found the easiest way to cut this rigid insulation was with an 'electric knife'. Typically the kind one might see cutting up a turkey for dinner.
For obvious reasons, all cutting was outdoors. And we vacuumed down each piece to remove loose fibers.
The KNAUF does NOT smell like some of the other insulations ... and it is not quite so itchy. But it does have an odor ... leaving it opened outside really helped.
There are tons of DIY vids online that have all kind of ways to do all this. It's worth watching many of them to learn the technique, pros and cons, etc.
Some builds are more effective than others ... Research.
Trapping does help, I've got a ceiling trap that spans the whole 20 feet in the back of my studio and is over 6 feet deep in the center. It goes up into the attic where I've got tons of hanging fiberglass all over the place. I know it's helping a lot with the bottom end.
When I flip on my sub it becomes obvious. I never really made the connection until I recently put a new floor in. I don't use the sub most of the time, as it goes with a smaller pair of Yamahas.
Quote:
Another question Glennbo, I'm assuming your floor is basically a wood floor sitting on floor joists? If so, I found out years ago that the only way I could get decent drum sound in that circumstance was to have good Shock Mounts on every mic. I built all mine using thin 1.5" plastic pipe, along with the round plastic inserts that came with 10" tape, I had several of them. I also fashioned some plywood to mount them on and cut up a broom handle to use for the part that went in the mic holder. I did something a lot more special for the Kick drum, because the rumble it made through the floor was extreme.
I've got 10 inches of solid concrete below my new thin commercial carpet with medium pad. My acoustic drums are sitting on a "Crash Pad" drum rug, so they have another 1/4" layer under them that is hopefully decoupling them a little more from the slab below.
I've just about decided to just get a box of the 8# panels that are 2'x4'x3" and just wrap 'em in fabric. Then mount a couple of them vertically in the corners of my front wall, and horizontally all the way down the sides of the room where the ceiling meets the wall. There are 7 panels and the last odd one I could cut in half to make a smaller pair to go vertically on my back wall where there is a door opening so a full size panel wouldn't fit.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
Thanks Philbo. The more I wrap my head around this the more I'm starting to think I might not even need to cut it up, and just wrap some 3" panels with fabric, sticking them in the vertical corners, and in the horizontal ones where the wall meets the ceiling.
For a very very inexpensive quick-n-dirty corner bass trap, buy several rolls of R30 fiberglass, leave them wrapped in the plastic they came in, stack them in the corners, and drape some fabric over them to de-uglify them and to make sure the plastic cover doesn't rattle at high SPLs. The density of the unopened and compressed rolled stuff is quite a bit higher than after it's opened, so it's fairly effective. A roll is roughly 36" diameter, so it should be effective to below 100Hz.
We cut the 2'x4' KNAUF rigid insulation in half [2x2] ...
then cut Diagonal across, to make triangles.
I found the easiest way to cut this rigid insulation was with an 'electric knife'. Typically the kind one might see cutting up a turkey for dinner.
For obvious reasons, all cutting was outdoors. And we vacuumed down each piece to remove loose fibers.
The KNAUF does NOT smell like some of the other insulations ... and it is not quite so itchy. But it does have an odor ... leaving it opened outside really helped.
There are tons of DIY vids online that have all kind of ways to do all this. It's worth watching many of them to learn the technique, pros and cons, etc.
Some builds are more effective than others ... Research.
That's what I was originally envisioning. I'm not sure whether chunky corners or 2'x4'x3" panels will be the better fix for my room. I plan to this week figure out how to use some of the tools I've downloaded to analyze the room, and hopefully once I get a handle on that, it will become more clear which type of bass trap will do the most for the room.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
Thanks Philbo. The more I wrap my head around this the more I'm starting to think I might not even need to cut it up, and just wrap some 3" panels with fabric, sticking them in the vertical corners, and in the horizontal ones where the wall meets the ceiling.
For an inexpensive quick-n-dirty corner bass trap, buy several rolls of fiberglass, leave them wrapped in the plastic they came in, stack them in the corners, and drape some fabric over them to de-uglify them and to make sure the plastic cover doesn't rattle at high SPLs. The density of the unopened and compressed rolled stuff is quite a bit higher than after it's opened, so it's fairly effective. A roll is roughly 36" diameter, so it should be effective to a bit below 80Hz. The drawback is the loss of floor area, but that will be true of any corner traps.
For a very very inexpensive quick-n-dirty corner bass trap, buy several rolls of R30 fiberglass, leave them wrapped in the plastic they came in, stack them in the corners, and drape some fabric over them to de-uglify them and to make sure the plastic cover doesn't rattle at high SPLs. The density of the unopened and compressed rolled stuff is quite a bit higher than after it's opened, so it's fairly effective. A roll is roughly 36" diameter, so it should be effective to below 100Hz.
I've seen at least one article where a guy did that but had real tall cylinders, like 4' each and stacked to the ceiling. He did the same, just hiding it behind some fabric. I just don't have the room though. It's wall to wall drums, desk, couch in here.
and might just wrap them in fabric and tack them into the corners of the room with T-Pins. Before I do anything though, I've got to spend some time with the Sonarworks Reference 3 plugin and REW to see what they reveal about the room. I've got an ADA8200 coming today, and once I get it setup and all my mics and cables restrung, I'm hoping to figure out how to get some meaningful readings in the next few days, so I know better what the room needs.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
Yeah, that'll do it. A set of panels is a lot more wife-friendly than a stack of roll insulation , that's for sure. And much easier to mount on ceiling-wall corners.
Yeah, that'll do it. A set of panels is a lot more wife-friendly than a stack of roll insulation , that's for sure. And much easier to mount on ceiling-wall corners.
Hehe, you've seen the pics of my studio, right?
The next room over, which is my wife's Art Room where she weaves on the loom, paints, carves, collages, knits, sketches, and generally makes a giant fooking mess! I can do anything I want in my room.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
I did similar but with REW, shoot the room, move some panels etc. until I could get it as flat as I could. One thing that makes this easier is measuring distances between various walls + ceiling floor, then use a mode calculator (or even an excel sheet) that will tell you which frequencies will be nodes/modes between those surfaces. Then when you see the REW output, you can easily identify which issues are due to which parallel surfaces.
Secondly, an important aspect that REW covers that SonarWorks does not is the time domain. Much of the time we care about how long a particular mode decays, so we use the waterfall plot in REW which maps that out. Ideally we want 300ms or less of decay before said frequency hits and drops under the noise floor of the room.
You may not need that at this point but I found it incredibly helpful and revealing to use REW to understand the room, make whatever physical corrections I could, then apply SW on top of that. I still have a fairly nasty issue in the sub lows, and the multiples of those which ripple up the range a tad, which is going to be harder to solve because it's difficult to absorb mode frequencies that low...
I'm just starting to mess with REW. So far I've gotten it to run the sweep test, and can plot the results, but the waterfall graph hasn't generated anything so far. It might be some graphics dependency or something. The Linux version of REW is running in Java.
__________________
Glennbo
Hear My Music - Click Me!!!
--
I'm surprised clicking "Generate" for waterfall doesn't work when it does for Spectrogram. One thing you might do is click limits (top right) and set the range to 20-20kHz just so you have the full range - most use just for low end but I do like seeing it all.
You could also go to the "All SPL" tab, uncheck everything but the result you want to look at, click controls and smoothing to 1/6 octave. The smoothing is just to get it closer to the average it sounds like to the ears. This graph doesn't take time into account FYI like Spectro and Waterfall do.
That one around 160 hz is ringing for 700 ms FYI.
__________________ Music is what feelings sound like.
Last edited by karbomusic; 04-12-2021 at 10:36 AM.
Linear Mode
