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Old 02-21-2019, 05:52 PM   #41
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Hi Folks

I'm just trying Sonarworks out with my monitors.
When the Sonarworks plugin is used in the monitor FX chain in reaper it doesn't function (there's no level showing in the plugin metering). When I put it on the master bus it works. Have any of you got it working in the monitor FX chain and was there a trick to that?

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Old 02-21-2019, 07:07 PM   #42
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Hi Folks

I'm just trying Sonarworks out with my monitors.
When the Sonarworks plugin is used in the monitor FX chain in reaper it doesn't function (there's no level showing in the plugin metering). When I put it on the master bus it works. Have any of you got it working in the monitor FX chain and was there a trick to that?

Cheers
Hi Triode, yes I do have it in my "Monitor" FX, it's working very nicely. I've also got it working well outside of Reaper using "Systemwide", another Sonarworks plugin.

It's been a while so I don't recall the exact procedures.
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Old 02-22-2019, 02:20 AM   #43
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Thanks Tod.

It was the pin thing. My interface outs are number 17 and 18. I needed to open the pin dialog and click on the plus sign and add the relevant pins. Stumped me before and I forgot it was necessary for every plugin there.

I set Sonarworks up last night using a U87 and even though I imported a general calibration file I'm not sold yet listening to various frequencies on an oscillator. I think the mic that comes with the software might be necessary. Hmmn...
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Old 02-22-2019, 03:53 PM   #44
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Yes you need to use a proper calibration microphone with a calibration file to set up sonarworks for using it for monitoring with speakers.
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Old 02-23-2019, 10:32 AM   #45
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I set Sonarworks up last night using a U87 and even though I imported a general calibration file I'm not sold yet listening to various frequencies on an oscillator. I think the mic that comes with the software might be necessary. Hmmn...
I've got a Behringer ECM8000 acoustic measurement microphone. I got it at Sweetwater, I see they're about $60 right now. I've noticed quite a few other people have it and I think it's okay for this.

I also see the Sonarworks microphone is about $70 right now.

I think there's a calibration file out there for the ECM5000, but I measured without it and got reasonable results.
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Old 02-23-2019, 11:47 AM   #46
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I think there's a calibration file out there for the ECM5000, but I measured without it and got reasonable results.
Well it's not so much out there as right here ....you posted yours last year after being pointed at the data! It's just a bit further up the thread.
The problems with it are also discussed.
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Old 02-23-2019, 01:39 PM   #47
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Well it's not so much out there as right here ....you posted yours last year after being pointed at the data! It's just a bit further up the thread.
The problems with it are also discussed.
Thanks Stella, yeah but I wonder if there isn't something more recent?
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Old 02-24-2019, 04:24 AM   #48
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The cal file I used for my ECM800 is the one linked to earlier in this thread. It works perfectly here.
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Old 02-24-2019, 05:46 AM   #49
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Thanks Stella, yeah but I wonder if there isn't something more recent?
The data you created it from has not been updated since 2016 so I guess still considered current by Behringer.

https://kb.musictribe.com/musickb/vi...libration-Data

However....this statement pretty much sums up my own concerns and the reason I went for the xref20 in the end.

http://www.cross-spectrum.com/measur...behringer.html
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Old 02-24-2019, 09:46 AM   #50
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However....this statement pretty much sums up my own concerns and the reason I went for the xref20 in the end.

http://www.cross-spectrum.com/measur...behringer.html
Aah, I hadn't seen that before, it looks like that was published in 2013.

When I got mine I went over it pretty thoroughly with Sweetwater regarding how well they worked. I'm sure they were tempted to sell me a more expensive mic, but when I pressed them, they assured me the ECM5000 would do the job.

The only problem I've had is the mic clip broke, but I've got a lot of assorted mic clips, so it's no problem.
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Old 02-24-2019, 01:01 PM   #51
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Just a note to say that I also use Sonarworks in a room with a fair bit of treatment (full-height traps, diffusers) and it made a great, measurable difference.

Only complaint is something I have already requested as a feature - the tray icon needs to indicate if it is in speaker or headphone mode. A few times I've been wondering why everything sounds awful before realising I have headphone correction mode on while monitoring through speakers. But otherwise, it's great.
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Old 02-24-2019, 05:28 PM   #52
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However....this statement pretty much sums up my own concerns and the reason I went for the xref20 in the end.

http://www.cross-spectrum.com/measur...behringer.html
Hmm.. Very interesting. It seems the ECM8000 is somewhat of an anomaly for Behringer. As a general rule, their quality has improved by leaps and bounds of recent years. However, the early ECM8000 mics have proven to be very reliable. If the new ones are not up to par, that goes against the grain for Behringer.
As far as I can tell, my ECM8000 still works as good as the day I got it back at the start of the 2000s.
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Old 02-25-2019, 05:12 AM   #53
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I'm afraid it's true, Dave.

The first generation ECM8000 had WM61a capsules and a transformer.

The second generation ECM8000 had WM61a capsules and no transformer.

The third generation ECM8000 had clone capsules, made in the Philippines.

The fourth generation ECM8000 had clone capsules, made in the Philippines and an SMD board.

Apparently, there's a fifth generation now. And problems with consistent electret quality.

Besides, there's a design error in all of them. It's not a balanced mic, because of a wiring error. Correcting that yields a 6 dB higher signal output.

Atm, look at the Mini-DSP UMIK-1:

https://www.minidsp.com/products/aco...urement/umik-1

And, yes, it's a USB mic. BUT it's individually calibrated! and it's only 75$.
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Old 02-25-2019, 05:20 AM   #54
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Thanks Cyrano. You learn something every day so they say.
I'll have to open mine up and check out which version it is. I'm going to guess it is a WM61a model without transformer. It came with the Ultracurve 8024 which I mostly use as a spectrum analyzer these days.
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Old 02-25-2019, 05:13 PM   #55
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Seems like a good guess, Dave. I never could lay my greasy hands on one of the transformer ones. Seems these are rare. I do have one of all the other generations. Only one used for acoustic measurement. The others are noise pickups, used for testing cabling and shielding. Gostbusters...
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Old 02-25-2019, 06:10 PM   #56
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I'm going to guess it is a WM61a model without transformer.
I just cracked one of mine open (I have 2), they are circa 2002 and no transformer so I wonder when they had transformers. Reg panasonic capsules, it looks like WM6x but not exactly so not sure if they ever actually had these. I may take the capsule out to look closer but it is glued in; I'd be tempted to say its a WM6x knockoff. Nice enclosures though, I really should take a couple of those WM61a's we bought in 2014, build new preamps and just rebuild both of them and rebrand as "the karbo".
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Old 02-25-2019, 06:57 PM   #57
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Getting the capsule out unharmed is next to impossible...

And here's a pic of the transformer one:

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Last edited by cyrano; 02-25-2019 at 07:05 PM.
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Old 02-25-2019, 07:17 PM   #58
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Getting the capsule out unharmed is next to impossible...

And here's a pic of the transformer one:

That's got a totally different looking case, were they that different back then?

I'm totally stuck with mine unless I want to buy another one, but I'm happy with what I ended up with for my room using Sonarworks.

I only shot the room once with Sonarworks, so when I have some time I'm going to do it again to see what happens.
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Old 02-25-2019, 07:36 PM   #59
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Getting the capsule out unharmed is next to impossible...

And here's a pic of the transformer one:
Thanks for the pic. I got it out without much issue. It's bigger than the WM61a. ECM800 on the right...



The pre...

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Old 02-25-2019, 07:39 PM   #60
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That's got a totally different looking case, were they that different back then?

I'm totally stuck with mine unless I want to buy another one, but I'm happy with what I ended up with for my room using Sonarworks.

I only shot the room once with Sonarworks, so when I have some time I'm going to do it again to see what happens.
I only can see a different screw...

Mine aren't all the same either. But the differences are minor. Different grille, different screws, XLR's.

Behringer used different OEM's over time for these. The only one I'm sure of, is Phonic, in Taiwan. One of my broken ECM8000's states "Made in the Phillipines".

The latest one (since 2015) seems to use the same OEM as the Dayton measurement mic. It's 200 Ohms, the older ones all are 600 Ohms.
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Old 02-25-2019, 07:52 PM   #61
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Thanks for the pic. I got it out without much issue. It's bigger than the WM61a. ECM800 on the right...
Well, congrats! I never managed to get one out without heating it.

Since yours still has through-hole components, it's one of the earlier. 3rd generation in my list?

And even WM61's aren't too sure. They're still available from reputed sources, but a lot of "fake" ones are around. Maybe even Panasonic made several revisions?

But my list is based on what I've seen. Probably there have been other ECM8000 versions in other markets, or at other moments. These four are the ones I've seen over the years and by dissecting the defective ones I've been given.

The info about the latest one (2015) comes from a GS thread:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-m...anged-why.html
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Old 02-25-2019, 08:03 PM   #62
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Well, congrats! I never managed to get one out without heating it.
Very judicious use of acetone on a Q-Tip.
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Old 02-26-2019, 04:17 AM   #63
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Very judicious use of acetone on a Q-Tip.
Never tried that. Doesn't acetone damage the capsule?

I mean, acetone vapor is enough to make 3D prints shiny, isn't it?
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Old 02-26-2019, 04:21 AM   #64
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Never tried that. Doesn't acetone damage the capsule?

I mean, acetone vapor is enough to make 3D prints shiny, isn't it?
It should be OK unless made of something like ABS but I was careful not to soak the element side. I'll test when I put it back in to make sure it still works.
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Old 02-26-2019, 05:46 AM   #65
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Any way to determine "version" of Behringer ECM8000 microphone without disassembling/breaking it...?
For which of them will the supplied calibration data work?

I have two ECM-8000 that I want to use to measure my room. They were bought second hand at different times. One of them has CHINA inside the XLR connector, the another one does not
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Old 02-26-2019, 09:05 AM   #66
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Any way to determine "version" of Behringer ECM8000 microphone without disassembling/breaking it...?
Nope. AFAIK there's no way. Too many different versions.

Quote:
For which of them will the supplied calibration data work?
The .cal file is generic. It doesn't apply much calibration, except in the low end.

As these are electret capsules, getting older will probably yield more difference than the individual versions. All the capsules in these are omni and reasonably flat.

And as long as your measurements are relative to other measurements you make with the same mic, it doesn't matter that much.

Quote:
I have two ECM-8000 that I want to use to measure my room. They were bought second hand at different times. One of them has CHINA inside the XLR connector, the another one does not
If you start hearing a lot of hiss, they are ripe for replacement.
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Old 02-26-2019, 09:28 AM   #67
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Thanks cyrano,
will do some measurement in spare time and compare those two mics to see what's up.
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Old 03-02-2019, 01:30 PM   #68
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Default Trouble with Latency??

I ran into this problem of latency and I couldn't figure out why.

I had a client in for the last few days, and every time he tried to play his guitar or sing, there was way to much
latency so I had to use direct monitoring. I just didn't have time to stop and figure out what the problem was.

Then today I got to thinking maybe it's the Sonarworks plugin in the monitor FX, and sure enough, when I turned it
off today the latency went away. Ha ha, I can't believe I didn't figure that out sooner. So I decided to see if
I could set up ReaEQ to mimic Sonarworks.

I set up the tracks and FX like this.

Trk-1: JS White Noise generator (White Noise has less distortion then Pink Noise)
Trk-2: Sonarworks
Trk-3: 2 ReaEQ plugins
Trk-4: Span

Trk-1 is routed to both Trk-2 & Trk-3 while Trk-2 & Trk-3 are rounted to Trk-4.
Trk-2 is sending both left & right to Trk-4.
Trk-3 one ReaEQ goes out left using Pin-1, while the other ReaEQ goes out right using Pin-2.

Span is setup for both Trk-2 & Trk-3, with (Range Lo = -40)(Range Hi = -26)(Slope = 0) and a Smoothing of 1/6 Oct.

First I panned Trk-1 full left and setup the left ReaEQ, then panned Trk-1 full right and setup the right ReaEQ.

When I got done, I grouped the "Mutes" on both Trk2 & Trk3, loaded a reference song and routed it to both Trk-2 & Trk3.

While playing the reference I flipped back and forth between Sonarworks and ReaEQ. They sounded very very similar, ReaEQ
had slightly more in the mid range and Sonarworks had slightly more in the low end.

However, Sonarworks sounded somewhat tight in a way that I could both feel it and hear it. After testing for quite awhile
using other reference songs, I decided I definitely like ReaEQ better. Also I added another stereo ReaEQ and added about
0.8dB of Low Shelving at 116hz to make up for the lower bottom end.

So I added my ReaEQs to the monitor mix and bypassed Sonarworks. I'm really liking it and the latency is gone.
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Old 03-02-2019, 01:34 PM   #69
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Sonarworks does have a zero latency mode. Did you try that too?
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Old 03-02-2019, 01:42 PM   #70
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Sonarworks does have a zero latency mode. Did you try that too?
Yeah I know, but somewhere I read that Linear Phase was better so that's where I set it and forgot about it.

So to be honest, I did forget about that, so thanks Triode. But I still think I like the ReaEQ better. Ha ha, maybe there was a reason I forgot about the Zero Latency thingy.
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Old 06-07-2019, 07:22 AM   #71
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I was initially skeptical of Sonarworks but I decided to bite the bullet and try the demo of the full suite last month during their sale.

I'm no stranger to calibration techniques and had previously done my own measurements and calibrations of my studio monitors and was well pleased with the results. It was a big step up from no processing. That's part of the reason I was reluctant to try Sonarworks. I figured it wouldn't really offer much over what I'd already accomplished.

I was wrong! Very wrong! After running the Sonarworks demo, I was quite simply shocked at how well it works. It was the same step above my own calibration as that calibration was over uncalibrated. I purchased the full Reference 4 Studio Edition within MINUTES of setting up the demo!

It is now an essential part of my monitoring chain.


As for the headphone calibration, I recently purchased a pair of Beyerdynamic DT1990 Pro headphones and absolutely love them!
I noticed that there is a calibration setup for that model in Sonarworks so I decided to try it out.
At first, I didn't like it. The whole EQ curve seemed to tilt everything in the direction of more lows and less highs and I thought it sounded dull by comparison. However, I did some objective analysis and compared the Sonarworks calibration of the 1990s with the calibrated sound of my studio monitors and they are remarkably close. I decided to leave the Sonarworks calibration in my headphone monitoring chain and now I love what it does. It actually sounds very accurate and my mixes are translating well everywhere.

So, in summary, I'm a now a Sonarworks convert. It works extremely well.
great story!! I bought pre-calibrated hd650s and I cant explain enough how clear are they now - one of the most flat headphones available but when you turn sonarworks on it you experience a whole new level of monitoring.
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Old 06-07-2019, 09:49 AM   #72
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great story!! I bought pre-calibrated hd650s and I cant explain enough how clear are they now - one of the most flat headphones available but when you turn sonarworks on it you experience a whole new level of monitoring.
If I didn't end up with the Beyers, I probably would've gone with HD650s as well. A good friend who is also fellow musician/engineer has a pair and they are great headphones.

I'll be trying out some experiments using Sonarworks for live engineering use soon. I'm currently putting together a new live rig based on REAPER, an RME Fireface UFX and some Neve clone preamps and am planning to use a few instances of Sonarworks on busses and sends to calibrate both vocal mics and FOH/FB speakers. I'll obviously be using it in zero latency mode which is also the mode I'm running in my studio. I switched to that a few months back and haven't noticed anything detrimental. In fact, if anything, I prefer the sound of that mode.
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Old 06-07-2019, 11:39 AM   #73
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If I didn't end up with the Beyers, I probably would've gone with HD650s as well. A good friend who is also fellow musician/engineer has a pair and they are great headphones.

I'll be trying out some experiments using Sonarworks for live engineering use soon. I'm currently putting together a new live rig based on REAPER, an RME Fireface UFX and some Neve clone preamps and am planning to use a few instances of Sonarworks on busses and sends to calibrate both vocal mics and FOH/FB speakers. I'll obviously be using it in zero latency mode which is also the mode I'm running in my studio. I switched to that a few months back and haven't noticed anything detrimental. In fact, if anything, I prefer the sound of that mode.
interesting idea!with you luck man. im a newbie in this area,but i have no idea how i managed to mixdown all my tracks until now without sonarworks - it was false audio image all the way.
my sony headphones also are a lot more clear with this software,not to speak about my yamaha hs80 - now they are really FLAT.
now the mixes translate superb between the sennheisers and yamahas. i think i will not turn off this software ever
its not about beeing flat, its also that somehow the audio is more clear you can hear different frequencies better - cant explain.

good luck with the projects!
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Old 10-10-2019, 01:33 PM   #74
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this signal:




after applying the headphone profile for the DT990 pro:




zero latency:



The result of the correction is the addition of ringing, loss of space.
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Old 10-11-2019, 04:58 AM   #75
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The result of the correction is the addition of ringing, loss of space.
That's exactly what I hear too. I trialed Sonarworks but found the downsides outweighed the pluses.
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