Old 06-30-2022, 11:38 AM   #1
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Default mastering advice?

Over the last few weeks I did my first mixing and mastering of an entire album. I took my time. Listened. Learned a lot. Compared to references. All that. Sent it to my client. He liked it, but he ran it through an online mastering bot and said he liked it more that way. I'm fine with that. Beauty is in the ear of the beholder.

He sent me those new files and I compared them with a careful A/B in Reaper. Slightly higher 2-4k, wider stereo field, small bump below 100hz, but the big stand out for me was that everything was louder. Whereas I carefully tweaked everything to 13 LUFS-I, (or lower for the quieter/more chill songs) these new tracks he sent me were up anywhere from 1 to 4 db higher.

Would it make sense if I wanted to compare apples to apples and do more of a fair test, to turn on normalization and rerender these new tracks at 13 LUFS-I? I mean, a streaming service is going to turn them down anyway, so it seems like the right answer. And maybe I'll learn something.
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Old 06-30-2022, 11:55 AM   #2
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Yes. To compare it is important that all have the same LUFS. If you send the master louder than -13 you are right that the streaming service will turn it down and you don't control that so it is better to really cap it yourself to -13 or -14. So the references they sent you are wrong.
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Old 06-30-2022, 12:21 PM   #3
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Yes, agree with heda, the only fair way to compare is at subjectively loudness matched levels (not necessarily LUFS, although that is the best scientific measure we have, it doesn't always tally perfectly with subjective hearing), more based on your ear.

I'm doing that all day every day here, only with my own tweaks compared to the original client file. It's how you ensure you are not pulling the wool over your own eyes.

Drop the louder of the two files down to the level of the quieter (if you do it the other way you'll just clip the softer file), and increase monitor gain to compensate if needed. Do a blind A/B and see which you prefer the sound of.
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Old 06-30-2022, 01:34 PM   #4
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It's funny how nobody ever likes a mix with less of something. If you have bright highs and the bot mixes them brighter and louder the client will almost always go with that. It's EASY to trick the ear.

I suggest getting with the client and having references you both agree sound amazing, then doing your master and also do the bot and see which one sounds most like your reference.
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Old 06-30-2022, 01:53 PM   #5
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The controversy about the bright highs will never end. It will sound better for old people but younger people will complain it hurts to listen to it loud.
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Old 06-30-2022, 04:30 PM   #6
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The controversy about the bright highs will never end. It will sound better for old people but younger people will complain it hurts to listen to it loud.
I'm 62 and constantly turning down highs. Gerald Albright saxophone mixes are an icepick to my ears. That sax !!! Roll of some highs. I crank my tunes and unbalanced highs are no bueno. I love the Aerosmith album Get Your Wings. Just right.
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Old 06-30-2022, 04:58 PM   #7
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I'm 62 and constantly turning down highs. Gerald Albright saxophone mixes are an icepick to my ears. That sax !!! Roll of some highs. I crank my tunes and unbalanced highs are no bueno. I love the Aerosmith album Get Your Wings. Just right.
But Coachz, what highs are you talking about. The most significant highs that are harsh are from 1Khrz to 4Khrz, maybe as high as 5 or 6Khrz.

Above that, especially above 8Khrz is in no man's land.

Here's a video of of how I created profiles from iZotope's Tonal Balance Control. These profiles are to help you understand what you're hearing.

https://youtu.be/N-_5EKGX4pc
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Old 06-30-2022, 05:15 PM   #8
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It's very difficult to master your own mix after you've already done the best you can (to your ears), especially if you've already adjusted the levels, limiting and compressing as necessary.

Does your client know why he likes the other version?

Although some of us appreciate musical dynamics, there's a reason for the loudness wars and if your client wants a "louder" or "more intense" sound.... That's what he wants.

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but he ran it through an online mastering bot and said he liked it more
Real mastering is an art and it should be done with human judgement by someone with "good ears", a good system, and experience.
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Old 06-30-2022, 05:36 PM   #9
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But Coachz, what highs are you talking about. The most significant highs that are harsh are from 1Khrz to 4Khrz, maybe as high as 5 or 6Khrz.

Above that, especially above 8Khrz is in no man's land.

Here's a video of of how I created profiles from iZotope's Tonal Balance Control. These profiles are to help you understand what you're hearing.

https://youtu.be/N-_5EKGX4pc
What is no man's land?
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Old 06-30-2022, 06:11 PM   #10
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I've made boosted "volume war CD" versions of masters for a client to be able to compare more directly to the loud CDs they're obviously listening to. I've come from the other direction and reduced the volume of a volume war mastered reference track to help point that out. I've sat with the client and matter of fact showed them my volume war version next to the proper version and then turned the volume down on it to match. Basically a live tutorial on how to A/B compare two sources and not be fooled by someone's bs work where louder sounded better just because it's louder and that's how we humans work. I've explained how the streaming services will just turn volume war masters down and showed them how that plays out. I'll offer to make the CD version too loud if they think their audience for the CD has mostly volume war CDs.

That's about all you can do! Some people want to hear the vocals clearly and too shrill... from ear buds sitting out open air across the room! And you just can't help them. Demand they not put your name in the credits for mastering and be forceful with that.

I am wanting to be helpful though and some clients that only have experience listening to shrill volume war CDs kind of need loud mastering examples before they can really listen to the thing seriously. If there's a silver lining it's the fact that a CD version can be released with hype while the "proper" version can be delivered to streaming and web sales.
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Old 06-30-2022, 10:31 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Coachz View Post
What is no man's land?
Like I said, anything above 8Khrz, especially 10Khrz. Usually, but not always, it's primarily the younger people that can hear those freqs.

Back in the 70s I had no problem hearing 15Khrz, it's the frequency I used to align the azimuth on the multi-track tape machines once a month. However, somewhere in the later 70s (I was in my 30s) I couldn't hear 15K any more, but I could hear the 10Khrz that my mixing board put out. However, that disappeared too in the latter 80s.

Here's a picture of a song I recorded recently. Using iZotope's Total Balance Control (TBC), my ears, and Span, I was able to get this song mixed and mastered and it sounds great. The yellow line in Span is the exact profile that fits the TBC "Bass Heavy" profile.


Although in this case, the song profile fits the TBC profile almost like a glove, that's not always the case.

Somewhere down the line, I want to post all my iZotope (TBC) profiles for everyone to use if they wish.
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Old 06-30-2022, 10:39 PM   #12
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That's about all you can do! Some people want to hear the vocals clearly and too shrill... from ear buds sitting out open air across the room! And you just can't help them. Demand they not put your name in the credits for mastering and be forceful with that.
Ha ha, good one serr.

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I am wanting to be helpful though and some clients that only have experience listening to shrill volume war CDs kind of need loud mastering examples before they can really listen to the thing seriously. If there's a silver lining it's the fact that a CD version can be released with hype while the "proper" version can be delivered to streaming and web sales.
I'm not doing any of this for a living but I totally understand where you're coming from serr.
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Old 06-30-2022, 11:06 PM   #13
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...
I carefully tweaked everything to 13 LUFS-I
Why?
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Old 07-01-2022, 02:55 AM   #14
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I've made boosted "volume war CD" versions of masters for a client to be able to compare more directly to the loud CDs they're obviously listening to. I've come from the other direction and reduced the volume of a volume war mastered reference track to help point that out. I've sat with the client and matter of fact showed them my volume war version next to the proper version and then turned the volume down on it to match. Basically a live tutorial on how to A/B compare two sources and not be fooled by someone's bs work where louder sounded better just because it's louder and that's how we humans work. I've explained how the streaming services will just turn volume war masters down and showed them how that plays out. I'll offer to make the CD version too loud if they think their audience for the CD has mostly volume war CDs.

That's about all you can do! Some people want to hear the vocals clearly and too shrill... from ear buds sitting out open air across the room! And you just can't help them. Demand they not put your name in the credits for mastering and be forceful with that.

I am wanting to be helpful though and some clients that only have experience listening to shrill volume war CDs kind of need loud mastering examples before they can really listen to the thing seriously. If there's a silver lining it's the fact that a CD version can be released with hype while the "proper" version can be delivered to streaming and web sales.
That's very cool of you. I target -12.5 lufs on all my mixes to get dynamic loud mixes. Much lower and the dynamics die and you get a wall of sound with no details in anything more than 8 track mixes.
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Old 07-01-2022, 02:58 AM   #15
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Why?
13 lufs us a great level to shoot for. 12 to 13 is a sweet spot. I auditioned over 50 of my fav albums to determine this.
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Old 07-01-2022, 03:00 AM   #16
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Like I said, anything above 8Khrz, especially 10Khrz. Usually, but not always, it's primarily the younger people that can hear those freqs.

Back in the 70s I had no problem hearing 15Khrz, it's the frequency I used to align the azimuth on the multi-track tape machines once a month. However, somewhere in the later 70s (I was in my 30s) I couldn't hear 15K any more, but I could hear the 10Khrz that my mixing board put out. However, that disappeared too in the latter 80s.

Here's a picture of a song I recorded recently. Using iZotope's Total Balance Control (TBC), my ears, and Span, I was able to get this song mixed and mastered and it sounds great. The yellow line in Span is the exact profile that fits the TBC "Bass Heavy" profile.


Although in this case, the song profile fits the TBC profile almost like a glove, that's not always the case.

Somewhere down the line, I want to post all my iZotope (TBC) profiles for everyone to use if they wish.
I definitely still hear over 10khz. I eq 15khz regularly in my mixes. I wear earplugs with all power tools and take good care of my ears. I also wear musicians earplugs to concerts
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Old 07-01-2022, 05:46 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Like I said, anything above 8Khrz, especially 10Khrz. Usually, but not always, it's primarily the younger people that can hear those freqs.

Back in the 70s I had no problem hearing 15Khrz, it's the frequency I used to align the azimuth on the multi-track tape machines once a month. However, somewhere in the later 70s (I was in my 30s) I couldn't hear 15K any more, but I could hear the 10Khrz that my mixing board put out. However, that disappeared too in the latter 80s.

Here's a picture of a song I recorded recently. Using iZotope's Total Balance Control (TBC), my ears, and Span, I was able to get this song mixed and mastered and it sounds great. The yellow line in Span is the exact profile that fits the TBC "Bass Heavy" profile.


Although in this case, the song profile fits the TBC profile almost like a glove, that's not always the case.

Somewhere down the line, I want to post all my iZotope (TBC) profiles for everyone to use if they wish.
How do you find this plugin? I use it but I am a bit sceptical. It always seems to show my mixes as in the sweet spot. I have to intentionally do something radical to get it to move outside the lines! Given that my ears are 57 years old and have suffered 37 years of foldback, sidefill and in ear monitors, this seems unlikely
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Old 07-01-2022, 07:07 AM   #18
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I target -12.5 lufs on all my mixes
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13 lufs is a great level to shoot for. 12 to 13 is a sweet spot
Never chase the numbers. It's completely track and genre dependent. I'm happy to crush my Hip Hop and Pop client's mixes to -9 LUFS I and I'll master my Downtempo and Chill clients compilations to -14.5 LUFS I. But these figures are beside the point, they are just where things naturally end up sounding good for that particular release.

Some stuff does sound better louder, and there's a real skill to getting things loud without them completely falling apart. Serve the music, first and foremost.

I had my hearing tested earlier this year, I can still hear over 16k and I'm nearly 48.
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Old 07-01-2022, 09:15 AM   #19
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Never chase the numbers. It's completely track and genre dependent. I'm happy to crush my Hip Hop and Pop client's mixes to -9 LUFS I and I'll master my Downtempo and Chill clients compilations to -14.5 LUFS I. But these figures are beside the point, they are just where things naturally end up sounding good for that particular release.

Some stuff does sound better louder, and there's a real skill to getting things loud without them completely falling apart. Serve the music, first and foremost.

I had my hearing tested earlier this year, I can still hear over 16k and I'm nearly 48.
Definitely use your ears but be aware for me very few and I mean very few mixes sound good to me at lower than -11 lufs. They turn into a wall of sound and the Dynamics or just crushed and the detail of all the interesting instruments disappear. Now if you only have three or four instruments you can get away with that but not the stuff I listen to
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Old 07-01-2022, 10:07 AM   #20
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Definitely use your ears but be aware for me very few and I mean very few mixes sound good to me at lower than -11 lufs. They turn into a wall of sound and the Dynamics or just crushed and the detail of all the interesting instruments disappear. Now if you only have three or four instruments you can get away with that but not the stuff I listen to
I can think of hundreds that sound great at -10 LUFS I and lower, on the calibrated ATCs I've been using daily for the past 11 years, in the same acoustically treated room... It's totally genre and track/mix specific. I'm sure -12 LUFS I does sound great on the things you listen to, and that's fine. I just feel "chasing the numbers" in a prescriptive way is entirely missing the point. Music is all about connection with other people. End of.
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Old 07-01-2022, 10:25 AM   #21
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The streaming services are hovering around -12 LUFS nowadays. They will simply turn anything louder down. Now your bitchen loud master that you also goosed the treble up on (because it sounded choked after the limiter damage) sounds tinny and puny next to proper masters.

Aside: That's what happened to Spotify (and probably a few others). Their overall shrill tinny sound isn't their lossy streaming compression. (Although it might exaggerate it.) Their timeline ended up with them grabbing volume war CD versions for most of their sources. All stuff in the -10 to -7 range turned down to -12 and it sounds like shit for it.

It's a really good time to be a big fish in a small pond right now by simply releasing music that doesn't sound like it was run through the meat grinder. Some of the big players are being really lazy right now. There's also this popular genre that's mostly click track and spoken (or yelled) vocal that can be slammed up loud without really hurting it.

Youtube is still wild wild west and anything goes for levels. So your loud master will stay too loud there and this is where most people listen to streaming music from. So there's that. Release a volume war loud CD version if you still need to and maybe put that version to Youtube. Give the -12 or -13 LUFS master to the online stores and more "official" streaming services.

Clickbait version:
There's this trick mastering engineers hate when you learn it... Working your volume control!
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Old 07-01-2022, 10:53 AM   #22
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Now your bitchen loud master that you also goosed the treble up on (because it sounded choked after the limiter damage) sounds tinny and puny next to proper masters.
I don't really think you understand how mastering works, the more clipping and limiting you apply, the less likely you are to boost the highs, it just sounds nasty. Any rookie ME will tell you that. It's more to do with density than loudness, with certain genres. If you volume match crushed and non-crushed versions, sometimes the crushed version DOES sound better. I know, I've done the blind A/Bs thousands of times.

The other point is as a service industry we do what the client asks, whether they be the singer/songwriter, the producer, the artist, the mix engineer, or the label. I am happy to accommodate most requests. If I send my Hip Hop clients tracks at -12 LUFS I, I know the first thing they will say is, "Can we have it a few dB louder?" Same for my Jazz clients, I am not gonna send them a -10 LUFS I master because the first thing they will say is "Mmm, seems a bit crushed". After working on thousands of projects you start to get an idea of what is expected in different genres. If you are "home mastering" your own work, that's a million miles away from what pro MEs do.

I hate over crushed music as much as the next person, all I'm saying is that there IS a place for it. If there wasn't, I'd immediately lose half my clients. I say this as an ME who has a rep for high sound quality and dynamics, and built that rep on deliberately NOT pushing things nearly as hard as some.

To the OP: I'd be happy to master your track for free, if you wanted a comparison with your own work, and that of the online automatic service. I'd hit the loudness at where I think it SOUNDS best.
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Old 07-01-2022, 10:53 AM   #23
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I can think of hundreds that sound great at -10 LUFS I and lower, on the calibrated ATCs I've been using daily for the past 11 years, in the same acoustically treated room... It's totally genre and track/mix specific. I'm sure -12 LUFS I does sound great on the things you listen to, and that's fine. I just feel "chasing the numbers" in a prescriptive way is entirely missing the point. Music is all about connection with other people. End of.
And they would sound even better at -13. If I want to hear crushed music I'll listen to FM radio. Oh my God what a horrible smeared image that presents
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Old 07-01-2022, 11:07 AM   #24
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And they would sound even better at -13. If I want to hear crushed music I'll listen to FM radio. Oh my God what a horrible smeared image that presents
Disagree, and that's fine. Some things sound better at -10 than -13. I can only go on what my clients tell me and my own experience here. As I said above, it's more to do with density rather than loudness. Even when the streaming services turn it down, it still sounds better than if you had left more dynamics and they hadn't turned it down. I know that goes against conventional internet audio forum wisdom, but it's what I have observed, with some music.

FM radio goes through many other processes AFTER mastering, like the Orban processor, which comprises extra compression, clipping, limiting, EQ, phase rotation etc. It's not really comparable to a nicely mastered track (loud or not). I agree some FM stations chasing loudness sound really horrible, but something like BBC Radio 3 can sound great.

No one's forcing anyone to listen to crushed music if they don't want to. But there's a huge market out there for it, and it's not going to go away any time soon.

As an example, two things I worked on:

https://open.spotify.com/album/5Nl8tGBQ8DGBgL1ub5P0JY

https://open.spotify.com/album/6RZHDEtyTexsQ97mGArqGd

The first Ambient Jazz album's tracks go from -12.8 LUFS I to -20.2 LUFS I, because that's where they sounded good. The second link is a raucous pop single that I mastered to -10 LUFS, because that's where it sounded good. There's a pattern here... They both called for COMPLETELY different approaches. That's all I'm trying to show. No one has to like either, but there's an inclusive space for all of it, at least in my life. Serve the music, numbers be damned.

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Old 07-01-2022, 11:54 AM   #25
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I spent dozens of hours checking the lufs and dynamics of my favorite music. The productions I listen to by Mutt Lange, Bruce Swedien, Roger Nichols and countless others have shown me that when you go below -10 the life goes out of a normal mix. I have settled on -12.5 lufs as my target for all mixes. Not only do they sound great to me but they also match up very will with streaming standards.

If you have only a few instruments you can crush it more and the instruments smear more than the entire mix smears, but if you crush a song with 50 tracks below -10 it's gonna be mud and just a smeared wall of sound or as I call it "FM" here in the USA.

There are tons of great old albums with mixes at -18 lufs even and all you have to do is turn up the volume knob to get the amazing sound they possess.

I also listen to music cranked and mix the same way to take into account fletcher munson. So many mixes are mixed at low volumes with the vocals on top and when you try to crank it the vocals ice pick you right in the ear. Are you listening Michael Franks last 2 albums ??? I love the albums so much, I remix all the songs myself pulling down upper mids to tame the annoyingly loud vocals.

Good luck on your journey and if you take the very best albums in the genre you love and use those as references you'll never go wrong and you might even make albums that sound better.


dynamics -----> glue --------> mud
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Old 07-01-2022, 12:24 PM   #26
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I don't really think you understand how mastering works...
I really don't think you understand what happens when you turn the volume down on something already slammed then.

A human ME would recoil at hyping the treble especially on already damaged program. Is IS an amateur move. But the online "mastering" services would just do their math and spit it out. All the shrill sounding volume war CDs out there didn't come from bots though. Some of them did of course but there were humans that had their hand in this too. I'd accuse them of not understanding how mastering works! (But they did understand perfectly well what they were doing! It wasn't mastering with the aesthetic to do no damage. It was making theirs louder than all the rest. "... but ours go to 11!")

Again...
There's this trick mastering engineers hate when you learn it... Working your volume control!
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Old 07-01-2022, 12:31 PM   #27
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The productions I listen to by Mutt Lange, Bruce Swedien, Roger Nichols and countless others have shown me that when you go below -10 the life goes out of a normal mix. I have settled on -12.5 lufs as my target for all mixes.
Do you think all those incredible mix engineers were trying to target -12.5 LUFS I when they made those mixes that you so love? I rest my case. Serve the music, like they did. I just think a prescriptive LUFS figure target is COMPLETELY missing the point, but I can keep saying it until I'm blue in the face, so I'll bow out of flogging this particular dead horse for now.

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There are tons of great old albums with mixes at -18 lufs even and all you have to do is turn up the volume knob to get the amazing sound they possess.
No argument here. The original releases of Fleetwood Mac's 'Rumours' and The B52's 'Cosmic Thing' both pack an incredible punch when turned up loud. Same with the Blondie stuff and Crosby's first solo album. All around -16 LUFS I, I think. Some of my fave music of all time. No one's forcing you to listen to Trap masters at -7 LUFS I.

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dynamics -----> glue --------> mud
I'm afraid you lost me there...
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Old 07-01-2022, 12:51 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by serr View Post
I really don't think you understand what happens when you turn the volume down on something already slammed then.

A human ME would recoil at hyping the treble especially on already damaged program. Is IS an amateur move. But the online "mastering" services would just do their math and spit it out. All the shrill sounding volume war CDs out there didn't come from bots though. Some of them did of course but there were humans that had their hand in this too. I'd accuse them of not understanding how mastering works! (But they did understand perfectly well what they were doing! It wasn't mastering with the aesthetic to do no damage. It was making theirs louder than all the rest. "... but ours go to 11!")

Again...
There's this trick mastering engineers hate when you learn it... Working your volume control!
I've had a calibrated monitoring system for over a decade so I'm perfectly aware of how a volume control works, that's the whole point of calibrated monitoring:

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniq...itoring-levels

Of course there are crappy mastering engineers out there, buyer beware. I'm just saying there are good ones too, who value sound quality and dynamics, and where communication is at least 50% of a great result that both they and the client can be very proud of.

As a pro ME of over 13 years, I can put my hand on my heart and say I wish more people would learn to use their volume controls too, especially DJs (that's what the channel Gain is for...). I know maybe 50 other mastering engineers and I assume they would all rather their clients learned to use the volume control more too, which kinda refutes your silly point. I LOVE it when clients ask me for dynamic masters, many have told me "don't worry about the loudness, just make it sound good", and I always breathe a sigh of relief (as does the music).

Serve the music first and foremost, it's a visceral and emotional force that connects people, not something to be "targeted" with specific numbers. Mix and master for the desired sound, not to hit a streaming playback level "target". People tend to confuse the two things when they are completely unrelated.

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Old 07-01-2022, 02:18 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Bruceqld View Post
How do you find this plugin? I use it but I am a bit sceptical. It always seems to show my mixes as in the sweet spot. I have to intentionally do something radical to get it to move outside the lines! Given that my ears are 57 years old and have suffered 37 years of foldback, sidefill and in ear monitors, this seems unlikely
You're absolutely right Bruce, I've found the same thing, Tonal Balance Control has some kind of normalizing going on, and it makes it very confusing. That's why the profile I made for Span is so important for me.

You can download Span in the link below, it's absolutely free, and is touted to be the best analyzer there is by many professionals. There is a slight learning curve but once you get it set up with your own presets, it works great.

I've been using profiles that I created myself for many years, and I was happily surprised when I found Tonal Balance Control profiles very similar to may own.

Get your free Span here.
https://www.voxengo.com/product/span/

Here's a tutorial on setting up the groups for Span. He sets up 4 groups, but to use Span like I do, you only need 2 groups.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFqbTqoC79U

Let me know if you have any questions. Also if you'd like the profiles I've created for Span, just PM me.

Also, here's a short video showing 3 Tonal Balance Control profiles I created.
https://youtu.be/N-_5EKGX4pc
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Old 07-01-2022, 02:37 PM   #30
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Do you think all those incredible mix engineers were trying to target -12.5 LUFS I when they made those mixes that you so love? I rest my case. Serve the music, like they did. I just think a prescriptive LUFS figure target is COMPLETELY missing the point, but I can keep saying it until I'm blue in the face, so I'll bow out of flogging this particular dead horse for now.



No argument here. The original releases of Fleetwood Mac's 'Rumours' and The B52's 'Cosmic Thing' both pack an incredible punch when turned up loud. Same with the Blondie stuff and Crosby's first solo album. All around -16 LUFS I, I think. Some of my fave music of all time. No one's forcing you to listen to Trap masters at -7 LUFS I.



I'm afraid you lost me there...
First, please don't bow you. I can learn from all of you and possibly vice versa. We are adults and can disagree but we can also have a great civil conversation and that is the Reaper way. I just pulled up Cosmic thing and it's at -17 to -16 Lufs. The reason it packs a punch is because all of the dynamics are preserved. To be clear, a Nickleback song at -8 lufs packs a punch too but has NONE of amazing soundstage and detail that Cosmic thing has.

If I pull up Kiss Carnival of Souls or Psycho Circus, those are mastered very hot but the Marshall Amps still have great dynamics. Their next two albums however (Sonic Boom and Monster) have the snot crushed out of them and are an INSULT to what a Marshall amp should sound like. They are unlistenable to me because they are just a wall of smeared sound.

A great mix can have too many dynamics and need a bit of compression to glue it together or as Bruce Swedien did by riding the faders to control the dynamics but as the glue gets too strong and controls too many dynamics the mix turns to mud.

Enjoying the convo !
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Old 07-01-2022, 03:04 PM   #31
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It is all about context, genre, mix given and client expectation. And no, the streaming loudness normalizaion does not make loudness (i.e density) irrelevant. I often put out stuff that is very loud and that is exactly how it is supposed to be.

It can help a little to ease the anxiety of some artists though and most importantly create a more comfortable listener experience.
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Old 07-01-2022, 03:32 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Tod View Post
You're absolutely right Bruce, I've found the same thing, Tonal Balance Control has some kind of normalizing going on, and it makes it very confusing. That's why the profile I made for Span is so important for me.

You can download Span in the link below, it's absolutely free, and is touted to be the best analyzer there is by many professionals. There is a slight learning curve but once you get it set up with your own presets, it works great.

I've been using profiles that I created myself for many years, and I was happily surprised when I found Tonal Balance Control profiles very similar to may own.

Get your free Span here.
https://www.voxengo.com/product/span/

Here's a tutorial on setting up the groups for Span. He sets up 4 groups, but to use Span like I do, you only need 2 groups.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFqbTqoC79U

Let me know if you have any questions. Also if you'd like the profiles I've created for Span, just PM me.

Also, here's a short video showing 3 Tonal Balance Control profiles I created.
https://youtu.be/N-_5EKGX4pc
Wow! Thanks so much for this Tod! I will watch the videos right now. I can't wait to get into the studio to try it out.
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Old 07-03-2022, 07:57 AM   #33
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Yes, civil is good, sorry if I came over as confrontational before, I am enjoying the conversation too!

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I just pulled up Cosmic thing and it's at -17 to -16 Lufs. The reason it packs a punch is because all of the dynamics are preserved.
I am in total agreement, that album would sound terrible at -10 LUFS I. But in my experience, for some music, -10 is EXACTLY where it needs to be, and it would lose a lot of impact and density at -16. The "noisy" pop track I posted earlier, that I mastered last week, being a case in point. Sometimes louder/denser does sound better, again IMHO.

It concerns genre, track, mix, and client expectations. There are so many variables, added to music being about subjective experience, emotional impact and connection with listeners, that it just seems silly to me to impose arbitrary figures on all music. Serve the music and its connection with people, first and foremost.
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Old 07-03-2022, 08:23 AM   #34
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It is wrong to say this sound better at this or that LUFS-I. That number is irrelevant above -13 since the streming services will turn it down to the -14 or -16 level.
What we need to discuss is, this type music sounds better at this or that dynamic range.
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Old 07-03-2022, 08:52 AM   #35
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Yes, civil is good, sorry if I came over as confrontational before, I am enjoying the conversation too!



I am in total agreement, that album would sound terrible at -10 LUFS I. But in my experience, for some music, -10 is EXACTLY where it needs to be, and it would lose a lot of impact and density at -16. The "noisy" pop track I posted earlier, that I mastered last week, being a case in point. Sometimes louder/denser does sound better, again IMHO.

It concerns genre, track, mix, and client expectations. There are so many variables, added to music being about subjective experience, emotional impact and connection with listeners, that it just seems silly to me to impose arbitrary figures on all music. Serve the music and its connection with people, first and foremost.
I agree and that's where a -13 Lufs mix might sound great but a -10 Lufs mix might have more glue to it and sound better for a style of music. There is a fine line between glue and mud where it's now just a wall of sound. The Kiss albums I mentioned earlier are perfect examples. Meanwhile the Nickleback Dark Horses album slams at lower lufs and keeps the edge but that's Mutt Lange twiddling the dials.
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Old 07-03-2022, 08:55 AM   #36
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It is wrong to say this sound better at this or that LUFS-I. That number is irrelevant above -13 since the streming services will turn it down to the -14 or -16 level.
What we need to discuss is, this type music sounds better at this or that dynamic range.
Discussing streaming services is a separate topic. I mix for Wav files and not streaming services and the lufs I'm talking about are for wav files meant to be played through expensive stereos and pro PA systems.

Since -12.5 Lufs is my target it also just so happens to work great for streaming services but that was just by chance.
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Old 07-03-2022, 08:57 AM   #37
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You've got me thinking about the -14 LUFS thing. It's often forgotten that music will only be turned down for listeners with loudness normalization activated, which many listeners don't have (the assumption that loudness normalization is always on is incorrect). With Spotify, it's off by default in my browser, for one, and I can't even find a way to turn it on, though I haven't exactly looked thoroughly. It seems to be on by default on my phone app. The lack of consistency is quite infuriating. I'm having to reach for the volume control on my amplifier with almost every new song when listening to Discover Weekly through my browser.

The -14 LUFS thing isn't a standard and could change at any time, I believe Spotify is soon planning to drop their's to -16 LUFS, or so I heard. If you look at most commercial music on Spotify, hardly anyone is bothering to master to -14 LUFS, in fact many professional mastering engineers ignore the idea completely. I checked the UK Top 40 recently and found some songs to be mastered as hot as -5 LUFS, and honestly, they sound fine.

Personally, if I were a mastering engineer, I would never let Spotify dictate how I master my music (they'll change their mind later on anyway). I wouldn't let the AES dictate it, I wouldn't even let God himself (Bob Katz) dictate it. The loudness wars are such an overhyped problem, most poorly mastered music isn't bad because it's too compressed, it's bad because it's poorly compressed, and there is a difference. There is louder music (LUFS-wise) than Death Magnetic that sounds better than Death Magnetic.



Assuming you mean -13 LUFS integrated, I think it really depends on the genre of music, the type of processing involved (are you just using a maximizer or are you employing some transient shaping as well, for instance), and the overall dynamic progression of the song (a -12 LUFS song with a mix of quiet and loud passages is going to sound very different to a -12 LUFS song with a mostly consistent volume throughout).

How well the song turns out in mastering will also be highly contingent on how good it sounded before mastering. Were the peaks all over the place before or were they consistent? What was the average crest factor before mastering? What you send into the limiter is just as important as what you're trying to get out of it.
Post me the song that is at -5Lufs and sounds fine. It HAS to be a wall of mud.

I mean Lufs Integrated.
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Old 07-03-2022, 09:22 AM   #38
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Post me the song that is at -5Lufs and sounds fine. It HAS to be a wall of mud.

I mean Lufs Integrated.
My Merzbow 'Pulse Demon' CD has LUFS-I in positive figures, True Peaks of nearly +6dBFS, and sounds great, cos that's how it's meant to sound. OK, it's an extreme example of Power Electronics, but it exists...

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Old 07-03-2022, 10:47 AM   #39
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It is wrong to say this sound better at this or that LUFS-I. That number is irrelevant above -13 since the streming services will turn it down to the -14 or -16 level.
What we need to discuss is, this type music sounds better at this or that dynamic range.
No it's absolutely not irrelevant, some music sounds good and the way it should with "high density" audio. This is not a technical issue, but an estetic one. This is definitely the biggest misconception with mastering.
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Old 07-03-2022, 11:58 AM   #40
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No it's absolutely not irrelevant, some music sounds good and the way it should with "high density" audio. This is not a technical issue, but an estetic one. This is definitely the biggest misconception with mastering.
"High density" audio refers to the dynamic range, not to the LUFS-I.
The LUFS-I doesn't matter. You could export your -9 LUFS-I lowering it by 10dB for example and you get a new file that is -19 LUFS-I. And you cannot say -9 sounds better than the -19 one because they are exactly the same. It is just that you have to turn your listening device up on the 19 one.

On the other hand you could have created different versions of the mix, one at -9 with low dynamic range and one at -19 with high dynamic range. then export the -9 mix to -19. then yes, you have different versions, both at -19 and you could argue one sounds better than other and that depends on the music style etc...
I hope it is clear now.
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