Ideas for better crossfade editing

[chmaha]

Sequoia, Pyramix, SaDiE (and now Cubase and shortly Samplitude Pro X7) have advanced crossfade editors that make precise crossfade tweaking a dream. See discussion at https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=265145.

Here are some hopefully simple requests to get us most of the way there (in order of priority):

1) "Show underlying source material (greyed-out) beyond end of item" Toggle.

For example, we have item A crossfading with item B while using "offset overlapping media items vertically". After the crossfade, item A's waveform should still be visible but greyed-out. Likewise, item B's waveform prior to crossfade should be visible in the same way. Audio that is heard is in the regular item color. This seems like it could be a relatively easy toggle option to implement in REAPER? This would either extend items to the end of the underlying source material or to the next crossfade/item start, whichever comes first.

2) The above would then give us easier ways to audition fades as we could drag fades around as is possible in Sequoia/Pyramix etc. It would be good to be able to link the fades on a two-lane view so that dragging one by default increases the length of the crossfade and not just the one item's fade. A bit like is possible with the Ctrl+drag but that seems unreliable. Ideally a "link" checkbox would be available. Also Linking/Unlinking of fades across tracks that can override item grouping.

3) Single-click auditioning tools for all the types needed such as item A to fade, item A post-fade, item A during fade (with pre- and post-roll), same for item B, then obviously the regular item A into B with pre- and post-roll. This would involve adding a proper audition section to the crossfade editor dialog.

[Pashkuli]

Agree, to e certain extent: some crossfade combinations are so indistinguishable from one another, it really is not worth the hassle.

On the other hand many people use them creatively: sound design\blend
so, yes. Count me in!

Also a Fade outs are literally "built-in" Fader (automation!) to each item (take). It would be nice if we could have an option for the Item-FX to act as "post-item-Fade-out" as well.
Currently the Track-FX act like that but do not act as a "pre-item-Fade-out".

This all should be a part of a proper cross-Fade editor!

[hma]

Originally Posted by Pashkuli

Agree, to e certain extent: some crossfade combinations are so indistinguishable from one another, it really is not worth the hassle.

On the other hand many people use them creatively: sound design\blend
so, yes. Count me in!

Also a Fade outs are literally "built-in" Fader (automation!) to each item (take). It would be nice if we could have an option for the Item-FX to act as "post-item-Fade-out" as well.
Currently the Track-FX act like that but do not act as a "pre-item-Fade-out".

This all should be a part of a proper cross-Fade editor!

The idea of an advanced crossfade editor like in the programs mentioned above is not only about trying out different crossfade combinations at the same points in time, but generally about finetuning a crossfade until you don't notice it anymore. It's about finding the right spot for the fades and optimizing fade lengths and types, maybe even using asymmetrical fades etc.
If, while finetuning a crossfade, you can see the waveforms of how the left item would continue and how the right item would look before the fade point, if you can ideally even audition this, then you'll find a good spot for a crossfade much easier and quicker. Plus you can already predict you'll possibly run into issues like changes of tempo or dynamics when fading between items at a particular spot, even before playing back a crossfade once.

Concerning your second point: As far as I know Take FX are always post item fade out, but maybe you're looking for
Preferences -> Media -> Take FX tail length
Don't know if there's an option somewhere to set take envelopes to pre Take FX though...

[nepenthe]

Originally Posted by BethHarmon

Sequoia, Pyramix, SaDiE (and now Cubase and shortly Samplitude Pro X7) have advanced crossfade editors that make precise crossfade tweaking a dream. See discussion at https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=265145.

Here are some hopefully simple requests to get us most of the way there (in order of priority):
.

Cockos should just hire you already :-D

[Pashkuli]

Originally Posted by hma

Concerning your second point: As far as I know Take FX are always post item fade out, but maybe you're looking for
Preferences -> Media -> Take FX tail length
Don't know if there's an option somewhere to set take envelopes to pre Take FX though...

Yes, that setting is available, but it is not the same. It is a setting, hard number, so to get it correct by 'next section of song' measure...
Insert empty item, Glue both, Apply item-FX, then Takes, explode to new track or in place, move that new rendered one in a new track... or mute the first one (original).

Alternatively, measure seconds to desired length to next section of song or just a bit longer, go back to settings, put that number in the 'Tail length when using Apply FX to items'...
and having to do it every time.

Honestly, I would rather prefer it to have an option for item-FX to be post-Fade-Out and automate the plugin Wet parameter(s) instead!

[chmaha]

Originally Posted by nepenthe

Cockos should just hire you already :-D

That's kind of you. I think the likelihood of that occurring is similar to Liverpool managing the quadruple at the same time I find a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow.

[andyp24]

Oh Beth....

The quadruple is still on.... until Sunday anyway. Hopefully your pot of gold will turn up either way :-)

Ax

[Gass n Klang]

+111

With crossfade editor, 4point editing (as you scripted it) and playlist feature and track based grouping (pro tools style) reaper could just eat sequoia, pyramix and pro tools.

[andyp24]

Now that the quadruple dream has died, I realise that I never commented on the actual FR.

Big +1 for me. There isn't much I miss from SADiE now, but the crossfade editor is definitely one of the only areas where Reaper isn't superior for my work.

[andyp24]

I was looking at this thread https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=267006 in the Development section....

It occurs to me that this feature (play lane markers) could maybe allow us to construct some kind of SADiE/Sequuoia/Pyramix Crossfade Editor using scripting....?

If the two items to be crossfaded were placed on adjacent lanes, and extended into the "grey" area, it looks like you could adjust the timing, shape etc of the crossfade whilst getting all the visual info we need.

Am I barking up the wrong tree?

[chmaha]

Originally Posted by andyp24

I was looking at this thread https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=267006 in the Development section....

It occurs to me that this feature (play lane markers) could maybe allow us to construct some kind of SADiE/Sequuoia/Pyramix Crossfade Editor using scripting....?

If the two items to be crossfaded were placed on adjacent lanes, and extended into the "grey" area, it looks like you could adjust the timing, shape etc of the crossfade whilst getting all the visual info we need.

Am I barking up the wrong tree?

Great minds and all that. I thought the exact same thing when I saw this new feature. It looks very promising but it will require a good session playing with all the options before I'm entirely convinced!

[andyp24]

I don't think, in this regard at least, that my mind deserves to be placed in the same bucket of greatness as yours, but glad we're thinking alike on this occasion!

[andyp24]

IF the idea works, the most difficult thing will be the "Ripple Left" functionality.

In the normal playlist, Reaper's Ripple only works on items to the right of the one being moved. In a crossfade editor, you need any move of EITHER item to be reflected correctly by the Ripple.

ie if the right hand item is moved (to adjust exactly where in its audio the fade in happens), everything to the right of it Ripples accordingly, but also if the left hand item is moved, everything to the LEFT of it Ripples with it.

There's no native function for that in Reaper.

[chmaha]

Agreed. However, given this is achievable via the crossfade editor dialog via the left and right content knobs (moving item contents can also ripple other items in both directions) I hope the devs can allow for this by having the option for ripple left and right only while the crossfade editor dialog is open. The problem is knowing which way to ripple. Without a dedicated crossfade editor, it wouldn't be clear which is required. Essentially the fade has to become the central point where anything dragged on the right hand side of the fade is regular ripple-edited and anything dragged on the left hand side of the crossfade is left-rippled.

EDIT: Correct me if I'm wrong but couldn't we get away with just the regular ripple editing to the right? I think I invariably just move the right hand item (and not through a limitation of REAPER). Between that and placing the edit cursor for the fade, why would you ever need to move the left item? Essentially by moving the left item you are literally behind the scenes selecting that and all previous items and moving them together. You can get the exact same edit by just moving the right item, no?

[andyp24]

Sure, you can.

I'm coming at this from a slightly different perspective - speech editing - where we might be making and tweaking literally hundreds of edits per hour. I *imagine* classical music editing isn't this quick ;-)

If it's the left-hand item which needs nudging a bit to the right (so that the last bit of the audio disappears under the fadeout), you CAN achieve that by moving the right hand item to the left AND moving the crossfade position to the left by the same amount, and then you only need Ripple Right.

But it takes twice as long to perform two actions as it does to do one.

That's all

Andy

[chmaha]

Originally Posted by andyp24

Sure, you can.

I'm coming at this from a slightly different perspective - speech editing - where we might be making and tweaking literally hundreds of edits per hour. I *imagine* classical music editing isn't this quick ;-)

If it's the left-hand item which needs nudging a bit to the right (so that the last bit of the audio disappears under the fadeout), you CAN achieve that by moving the right hand item to the left AND moving the crossfade position to the left by the same amount, and then you only need Ripple Right.

But it takes twice as long to perform two actions as it does to do one.

That's all

Andy

Yep, fair enough. It's just that with my current crossfade, you have to place the edit cursor so currently it will always be two actions. But, yes, ideally, it should be just one. The crossfade really seems like it has to be the center of the universe for the DAW or script to know what is expected. This has given me a thought!

[chmaha]

And Samplitude Pro X7 now has something that looks very much like Sequoia's crossfade editor:



I don't see anything missing! Note the "classical" move mode which accomplishes the ripple left and right as well as the link tracks feature... That's Cubase and Samplitude with what I consider "pro" crossfade editors, the winner easily being the Samplitude/Sequoia one: https://www.magix.com/fileadmin/user...ade-ma-int.mp4 #jealous

EDIT: Oh wait, maybe the Samplitude version doesn't let you drag the audio or crossfade directly? I'll have to download the demo and hope I can get it running via wine or virtualbox...

[andyp24]

It it doesn't work, let me know and I can try it out in Win10

[andyp24]

I tried it. Confirmed that the Samplitude Crossfade Editor does let you drag the audio directly in the expected ways.

It's actually a bit different from the way SADiE does it, but as far as I can see on a quick test, lets you do all the same editing moves. Kind of confusing at first that you have to click on the "greyed out" bit of the audio, not the "played" bit to move it in the expected way. Also, the colouring of the waveforms could be much clearer imo, but maybe that's tweakable (I'm guessing not).

EDIT: not just "at first" :-) It's REALLY counterintuitive that to line up a particular point on a waveform with the crossfade, you can't click on that part of the waveform, you have to click miles away and drag watching somewhere other than where the mouse is.

It doesn't require a "Ripple Left" but accomplishes the same effect in a different way... basically fixes the left item and shifts the fade/right item with Ripple according to the moves.

Pretty impressive overall. Makes me tempted to try it out for work and see what else it can do that Reaper can't (and vice versa)

[chmaha]

Originally Posted by andyp24

I tried it. Confirmed that the Samplitude Crossfade Editor does let you drag the audio directly in the expected ways.

It's actually a bit different from the way SADiE does it, but as far as I can see on a quick test, lets you do all the same editing moves. Kind of confusing at first that you have to click on the "greyed out" bit of the audio, not the "played" bit to move it in the expected way. Also, the colouring of the waveforms could be much clearer imo, but maybe that's tweakable (I'm guessing not).

It doesn't require a "Ripple Left" but accomplishes the same effect in a different way... basically fixes the left item and shifts the fade/right item with Ripple according to the moves.

Pretty impressive tbh. Makes me tempted to try it out for work and see what else it can do that Reaper can't (and vice versa)

Sounds like it is ported from Sequoia and that Sequoia will get the improved skin in a future update. Yes, impressive. It's clear that REAPER needs a clone of this

EDIT: Samplitude doesn't have S-D editing but it is also now far behind REAPER when it comes to loudness workflows. The REAPER dry render plus loudness/true peak normalization on render is absolutely amazing. The thing that Samplitude/Sequoia still does better is the CD/DDP metadata editing and the ability to shift track order by moving around in a list. I have that planned for my own tools (or at least a script while sitting on a marker).

[andyp24]

Yes, I'm sure there are loads of things I'd miss from Reaper. Especially the scripting capability. I've even written a few of my own (VERRRRY simple ones) to do things I liked better in SADiE.

But if the devs are reading this, a full featured Crossfade Editor would be a MASSIVE upgrade for Reaper please :-)

[hma]

Originally Posted by andyp24

I tried it. Confirmed that the Samplitude Crossfade Editor does let you drag the audio directly in the expected ways.

It's actually a bit different from the way SADiE does it, but as far as I can see on a quick test, lets you do all the same editing moves. Kind of confusing at first that you have to click on the "greyed out" bit of the audio, not the "played" bit to move it in the expected way. Also, the colouring of the waveforms could be much clearer imo, but maybe that's tweakable (I'm guessing not).

EDIT: not just "at first" :-) It's REALLY counterintuitive that to line up a particular point on a waveform with the crossfade, you can't click on that part of the waveform, you have to click miles away and drag watching somewhere other than where the mouse is.

It doesn't require a "Ripple Left" but accomplishes the same effect in a different way... basically fixes the left item and shifts the fade/right item with Ripple according to the moves.

Pretty impressive overall. Makes me tempted to try it out for work and see what else it can do that Reaper can't (and vice versa)

This new editor GUI in Samplitude seems to be very much copied from Sequoia, except some finetuning options of the fade shapes (in the demo video there's only two basic shapes in the dropdown menu and there are a few checkboxes missing compared to the Sequoia editor). It's hard to tell if there's functionality missing since there's no manual of ProX7 available on their homepage so far.

How you expect the handling to work when you first use that kind of editor is indeed an interesting question. It's hard to tell for someone who has used Sequoia for a long time what's intuitive for new users.

In the Sequoia CF editor in classical mode (the only mode I use for classical music) you can grab and move either the fades directly or the audio.
If you move the fades, the audio (in+out) remains in place and you only move the crossfade. Fade in and out can also be unlinked (via button or temp. shortcut), so that you can also make asymmetrical edits that way.
If you move the audio, it depends. Top left cannot be moved, top right (greyed out audio after fade out) moves the fade out in relation to the audio before the edit, bottom left (greyed out audio before fade in) moves the audio behind the edit in relation to the fade in, bottom right (playing audio after fade in) moves the fade out in relation to the audio before the edit again.

Apart from this you can set the general ripple mode (e.g. per track, all tracks, with automation curves linkes etc.) directly in the CF editor.

It takes a bit getting used to this, but in the end it's quite intuitive and very quick.

[chmaha]

Originally Posted by BethHarmon

Sequoia, Pyramix, SaDiE (and now Cubase and shortly Samplitude Pro X7) have advanced crossfade editors that make precise crossfade tweaking a dream. See discussion at https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=265145.

Here are some hopefully simple requests to get us most of the way there (in order of priority):

1) "Show underlying source material (greyed-out) beyond end of item" Toggle.

For example, we have item A crossfading with item B while using "offset overlapping media items vertically". After the crossfade, item A's waveform should still be visible but greyed-out. Likewise, item B's waveform prior to crossfade should be visible in the same way. Audio that is heard is in the regular item color. This seems like it could be a relatively easy toggle option to implement in REAPER? This would either extend items to the end of the underlying source material or to the next crossfade/item start, whichever comes first.

2) The above would then give us easier ways to audition fades as we could drag fades around as is possible in Sequoia/Pyramix etc. It would be good to be able to link the fades on a two-lane view so that dragging one by default increases the length of the crossfade and not just the one item's fade. A bit like is possible with the Ctrl+drag but that seems unreliable. Ideally a "link" checkbox would be available. Also Linking/Unlinking of fades across tracks that can override item grouping.

3) Single-click auditioning tools for all the types needed such as item A to fade, item A post-fade, item A during fade (with pre- and post-roll), same for item B, then obviously the regular item A into B with pre- and post-roll. This would involve adding a proper audition section to the crossfade editor dialog.

A bump! If no appetite for a crossfade editor overhaul in the near future, even option 1 alone at this point would be brilliant so that people can see beyond the edge of the item. So, a renewed call for a "Show underlying source material (greyed-out) beyond end of item" toggle.

[andyp24]

Agreed.

But beyond that, anything which works in the "normal arrange view" will lack the Ripple Left and Right functionality which is key to extremely fast, precise speech editing in this way.

The Reaper crossfade editor has it already, so it can't be that difficult to build it into the Arrange View, I'd imagine.

Having Ripple Right (later items) only means that some edits will always need two actions instead of one.

Reaper's existing crossfade editor already has a lot of useful functionality built into it, but lacks the visual info and drag/drop waveform capability.

An overhaul would be a massive boost for many of us.

Andy

[sockmonkey72]

Bumping this so it gets bumped. Great FR.

[chmaha]

bumpity bump.

[writtenbyjoe]

Bumping this as well... don't know why it's not an option already. Joey Sturgis mentioned this over 10 years ago for crossfades. Unfortunately the creator has broken links when it comes to the script he developed.

Original Thread:
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=58303