10-22-2019, 11:10 PM | #1 |
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Looking for new live performance computer
I'm looking for what would be the most capable low latency/live performance system (non desktop). So far my deduction has come to the MSI GT76 Titan (and it IS relatively large and quite heavy) with a 9900k, due to (what I can deduce) the apparently superior cooling system (over the Alienware Area 51m or Clevo P750TM1, other 9900k desktop replacement class). The implication being that better cooling would allow higher sustained CPU speeds.
Another hypothetical is if I'm reconciled with the size and weight of the above, just a little more size allowance and instead I could perhaps build a slim size mini-itx 9900k. Comparing dimensions of the gt76, an example of a slim style mini-itx case is only 1 inch wider and about 3 inches thicker. https://www.silverstonetek.com/raven...&area=en&top=C 15.04" (W) x 4.13" (H) x 14.33" (D) On the other hand, to go for a smaller size, this i9 nuc looks interesting, coming next year supposedly, but the cooling looks comparatively basic. Would want to wait for some reports about its effectiveness. https://www.tomshardware.com/news/in...ost-canyon-nuc For audio interface, so far I've come to the Presonus Quantum, due to wanting 8 pre amps in a single rack (I like RME, but they don't have a single rack with 8 pres, and Antelope's reports/reputation is quite discouraging (looked at the Discrete 8) ). Thanks for any thoughts! |
10-23-2019, 01:14 AM | #2 |
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what will the computer be doing exactly ? vst playing ?
multi backing tracks ? vst effect processing ? all of the above? For perspective I run a backing track system (at most 16 stems)on a atom z8350 cpu with 4gb ram. its a touch tv box type pc. all flash storage so it can handle massive vibration. reaper does quite well on such a mini system. we are using either the soundcraft ui24r or behringer x32core with s16 box.. sending at most 8 backing tracks to foh or running the whole stage through these boxes for mixing. IF i was going to use it for vst playing , id probably build a desktop system that doesnt use a laptop cpu, as they are managing power/electricity usage rather than just giving the most power per buck. Laptops generally have quirky battery saving software specific to manufactures that mess with audio latency related tasks. I guess if your willing to spend a fortune on a top tier laptop you'll probably get away with what you want to do. Not sure what presonus are like with driver efficiency but rme are really top notch in that regard. No soundcard i've used has the best response and stability that rme has when it comes to live vst instruments buffer settings on the same computer. So my hypothetical vst playing rig would be a modest desktop cpu build with a rme interface. |
10-23-2019, 02:00 AM | #3 |
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Thanks, yes the main use of the system would be for low latency mixing/monitoring of mics/instruments and use of many effects applied to that live audio. Some vsti use would also be a good option to have. Wouldn't be using any huge sample libraries though (figuring 32gb ram will be a good start), and likely could suffice with relatively lower cpu hit soft synths.
Right, I'm also thinking the "desktop replacement" oversize "laptops" using the 9900k desktop processor is the way to go. Though they are notably bigger and heavier, the computer and associated sensitive other gear hopefully could just work out under the limits of flight carry-on baggage. I am using RME digiface + adat rack(s) for my current system (is from 2010). RME works great. Its possible I could use the digiface with a new laptop by using an ExpressCard to Thunderbolt adapter (does exist). Disadvantage there is two more small-medium units added to the system (adapter box + digiface) compared to a single rack. According to that gearslutz latency thread, the Quantum is ranked among the better ones (RME PCIe is first), and user reports generally are good from what I've seen so far. Thanks for your reply! |
10-23-2019, 05:32 AM | #4 | |
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REALIVE: a reaper config to use REAPER live: WITH A PDF MANUAL!!! |
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10-23-2019, 05:44 AM | #5 |
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Nice. For the host, I'm interested to use Reaper of course, but its apparent inability to be a clock/sync slave to an external source (not ideal for performing in sync with other computer based musicians) makes me have other hosts on the list to check out, such as Usine or Logelloop. I haven't explored them hardly at all yet except for reading/watching about them. Already have Ableton, would work overall, but been working with it for a while and tired of making work arounds (mostly via scripting in lemur).
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10-27-2019, 01:03 AM | #6 |
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Agreed that desktops have fewer power saving mechanisms than notebooks, but notebooks are so much more mobile friendly, that I only use notebooks for live usage.
(Almost) all the performance killers in notebooks can be eliminated via configuration. I use exclusively Reaper for live mixing 16 I/O channels via USB3 (Zoom UAC-8 + 8 channels from another ADAT Pre-amp: Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 with USB disconnected). After heavy treatment on windows 10 it is capable to run 32-Sample buffer at 44.1 kHz stable, but for live mixing I use 64 Samples, and if recording is enabled I use 96 Samples, just for safety. The necessary treatments for no clicks in audio stream at low latencies: In Device manager search ACPI battery: right-click disable it (yes it really interferes) Set the power plan to high performance and check in details, if USB power saving is properly disabled. The following steps are only for the fearless! Use Windows 10 1607 with no updates (from pre-Meltdown-and-Spectre era) Put these lines in a file like audiooptimization.cmd and run it as administrator before each live performance (some settings get reverted after reboot, only some remain): __________________________________________________ ____ rem NVIDIA Tray Service net stop NVDisplay.ContainerLocalSystem bcdedit /set disabledynamictick yes rem bcdedit /set disabledynamictick no taskkill /f /im OneDrive.exe taskkill /f /im RuntimeBroker.exe net stop TimeBrokerSvc sc config TimeBrokerSvc start=disabled net stop TimeBroker sc config TimeBroker start=disabled net stop WpnService sc config WpnService start=disabled net stop WpnUserService_27e14 sc config WpnUserService_27e14 start=disabled net stop wuauserv sc config wuauserv start=demand taskkill /f /im TiWorker.exe net stop TrustedInstaller sc config TrustedInstaller start=demand net stop WSearch sc config WSearch start=disabled net stop SysMain sc config SysMain start=disabled net stop OneSyncSvc_27e14 sc config OneSyncSvc_27e14 start=disabled net stop SCardSvr sc config SCardSvr start=disabled net stop SNMPTRAP sc config SNMPTRAP start=disabled net stop wscsvc sc config wscsvc start=disabled net stop DcpSvc sc config DcpSvc start=disabled __________________________________________________ ____ From rehearsal to concert and after-show party you will run Reaper as live mixer with 64 Samples for 12 hours without any glitch or interruption or restarting any software. I wouldn't see the need for a desktop computer for this kind of setup. For heavy VSTi-usage I would use a separate computer. If you use other software than Reaper for syncing reasons, the Windows 10 treatments will be useful in the same way. MAC-users may be happy anyway (but not for too long: meldaproduction Email from Apple about Catalina) |
10-27-2019, 01:21 AM | #7 | |
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"Gaming" laptops usually have dedicated graphics RAM and hence avoiding cluttering the main memory and bus with accesses to provide screen display. -Michael |
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10-27-2019, 02:00 AM | #8 |
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Thanks, great to know of such explicit tweaks! The commands in your audiooptimization.cmd, did you mean those are only applicable if using Windows 10 1607 ? (I'm guessing they are applicable to any version).
(So far I'm leaning toward the MSI GT76.) |
10-27-2019, 04:05 AM | #9 |
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Yes, MSI is ok, I still use an older gaming Notebook MSI GE60 from 2013 happily.
The tweaks are made for Windows 10 1607, but applicable in general, but newer Windows releases introduce new offending services or tasks, so the CMD file might need to be expanded evry 6 month, if one does this harm to himself. Finding those offenders within ca. 100 . . . 200 processes is very time consuming, if they hit into the audio stream only every 30 minutes, but hit bad enough to ruin the artist's performance once in a while. Current Windows users have to live with the performace cut because of Meltdown and Spectre "Fixes". Funfact: Linux users avoid them too: make-linux-fast-again.com Windows users need to stick with 1607 no updates policy to be equal with Linux performancewise. ;-) |
10-27-2019, 06:33 AM | #10 |
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Wow, interesting, thanks! I did some looking around about 1607. So far seems its only available through "alternate" routes.
If I understand correctly, I also read some posts about the 9900k cpu apparently having those patches implemented at a hardware level (with a corresponding deactivation of the software patches by Windows). So I suppose in that case the older Win10 version wouldn't help. As a consolation, there were some mentions of the 9900k being less impacted by the patches compared to older cpus. |
11-07-2019, 10:27 PM | #11 | |
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https://dlz.reaper.fm/userguide/Reap...Guide5984c.pdf |
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11-07-2019, 10:51 PM | #12 |
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Thanks for getting me to revisit that. I had come to that conclusion a while ago based on my experience of not being able to have Reaper recognize the Midi Clock sent out of Mobius looper (via internal midi loopback device). Indeed Reaper does not have an option to sync to "Midi Clock", but the other options such as SPP, ASIO Positioning Protocol (interesting, never heard of that one before!), etc will prompt me to re examine Reaper's syncability in the context of the specific external program (such as another DAW or DJ software) and see if it has a sync format that could be compatible with Reaper.
BTW, about my computer search, looks like I will be going for the big Clevo P870 with the special cooling treatments from the reseller HIDevolution. |
11-07-2019, 11:25 PM | #13 |
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Am I wrong to understand that "Midi Clock" is what "MTC" selects in that menu ?
(I don't understand what "on all inputs" is supposed to mean. The manual says you need to activate "Control" on the appropriate Midi device configuration !) -Michael |
11-07-2019, 11:48 PM | #14 |
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Yes, MTC (Midi Time Code) and Midi Clock are different protocols.
Based on things I have used, Midi Clock appears to be quite common. But when using Midi Clock, it was not unusual for me to see "jitter" of the bpm, ie the tempo keeps varying up/down by small amounts. Hence, there are solutions such as this which purportedly can generate a solid Midi Clock: https://www.expert-sleepers.co.uk/usamo.html |
11-08-2019, 05:52 AM | #15 |
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Carrying a laptop for mixing and monitoring and another PC for VSTi’s isn’t as mobile as a fast powerful 1U PC in a small rack.
I have to automate lights, vocal FX, Synth presets, visual metronomes, and perform live using sampled instrument and articulations for our festival gigs, often outdoors where the temps can kill gear. My 1U in a rack with audio MIDI interface is fast to set up, stable and extremely mobile. Only thing I need is USB Powered 12” LCD and a mouse, just for boot up. Everything else including on the fly non menu diving manual over rides is done my from keyboard. Reaper is a great host for these type of gigs. Plus I get to make much more money by automating the entire performance. No FOH, or LD needed. All lighting cues are tight and there’s zero downtime. If I didn't build the rack though I’d pick a laptop, but it would still need to be a desktop replacement from ADK out of Lexington, KY. Only other option would be a custom Express 34 design by Getac, but those are 5-6 large and they still dont clock higher than 3GHz which could choke using ZebraHZ, PTeq, Kontakt, Omnispher/Keyscape. My PC costs 975 to build and that includes n NVMe M.2 for Spectrasonics STEAM Folder. Its great for speeding up sample loading.
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11-08-2019, 06:51 AM | #16 | |
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-Michael |
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11-08-2019, 01:49 PM | #17 | |
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https://www.reddit.com/r/synthesizer...ems_explained/ The TL;DR seems to be that if the driver for your USB midi interface isn't great, and you have a slower USB device (like a computer keyboard) connected to the same hub, then it can suffer issues. The funny thing is that this wasn't an issue for MIDI cards, but apparently they don't make those anymore. |
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11-08-2019, 02:16 PM | #18 |
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Not funny at all: the Midi cards are connected directly to the CPU bus and not use USB.
Maybe Thunderbolt attached equipment provides a more stiff timing (Thunderbolt essentially is an extension to the CPU bus). -Michael Last edited by mschnell; 11-08-2019 at 11:43 PM. |
11-08-2019, 02:35 PM | #19 |
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That sounds great! If you don't mind, might you happen to have your build's part list to share? Ideally I'd like to build it with a 9900k cpu and as much cooling as possible so as to be able to maintain moderately higher cpu speeds, 4.0-4.5 ghz I suppose would be good?
Is it the one in your photo with the yellow keyboard on top of the skb with 1u rack in it? Curious as to what software that is on the screen? The "laptop" I've been considering is a desktop replacement class (9900k cpu), and is actually another step above what I see ADK offers on their site (my current computer is such kind from ADK from about 10 years ago). That step is due to a larger chassis which has improved venting/cooling, and the reseller (HIDevolution) delidding the cpu and applying liquid metal to improve thermals, as well as couple other treatments with the gpu (including a "vapor chamber"). https://www.hidevolution.com/evoc-p8...1070-6979.html Last edited by ericzang; 11-08-2019 at 02:44 PM. |
11-08-2019, 02:38 PM | #20 |
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Interesting about the Midi Clock stability and usb. So perhaps if the clock is coming from a non usb interface it could be solid, such as from PCIe card or thunderbolt?
Last edited by ericzang; 11-08-2019 at 02:54 PM. |
11-08-2019, 11:44 PM | #21 |
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I indeed guess that this is correct.
-Michael |
12-05-2019, 11:17 AM | #22 | |
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The new system is an 8700k, if that matters.... |
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05-08-2020, 09:31 PM | #23 |
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Re using laptops for live use:
Fine for DJ'ing, but maybe not great for all complex band type setup. No room for lots of hard drives, minimal cooling, etc. But the big problem is if you have to gig outdoors in bright sunlight, where most laptop LCD's aren't bright enough. (Unless you have a Macbook Pro.) And if you ever do a gig outside in August, with no shade covering, well good luck. I've seen lots of laptops overheat and shut down. IMO, they're not worth the small bit of convenience. Last edited by Cableaddict; 05-08-2020 at 09:39 PM. |
05-08-2020, 09:38 PM | #24 |
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As for desktops, I've been putting off doing my new builds (I use two, one for backup) for about 6 months, not able to choose between Ryzen and Intel.
Intel has the all-core speed advantage, but also runs very hot. That's a problem in small rack cases. I was afraid Ryzen might not quite give the same low-latency (small HW buffer) when really stressed. And of course, there's no guarantee that the performance between Intel and Ryzen is equal even for a given cpu core speed, since the architectures are so different. (AMD's past history re latency is pretty bad.) On the other hand, we might be at the point at which ALL good HEDT cpu's can give the lowest setting your interface offers, in which case why not go AMD and lose all that extra heat? I'm STILL not sure, as I can't find much in the way of benchmarks, but a couple of recent posts elsewhere show the 3950X looking very good. One DAW builder reported a client successfully running a "recording session" (whatever that means) at 96K with a 32 HW buffer! Sadly, there's no details on that session. It might have just been 16 tracks with a few plugins. Still, it gives me high hope for the Ryzen chip. |
05-09-2020, 03:19 AM | #25 | |||
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Obviously, I disagree, but you have to plan well, know what you're doing and practice. The key is to carefully monitor your CPU usage and temperatures. You want to squeeze as much performance as you can out of it, but not more This is my live setup: Clevo 15" P751 with delided i9900k, 64GB RAM and 3 SSD drives. Rack contains RME UCX, Behringer ADA 8200, and Sennheiser wireless mic and monitoring for the singer. We have a rather big 90 track project with lots of VST processing and it works great at low latency. So it's doable if you know what you're doing. I can provide more info if anyone is interested. Last edited by brk303; 05-09-2020 at 03:28 AM. |
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05-09-2020, 10:48 AM | #26 |
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I finally went with something similar, the clevo P870 also delided 9900k (compared to the P751 it has a little bit larger chassis for a bit more cooling ability apparently). So far been good but I have yet to complete my full live scenario and put it under a long session test.
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05-09-2020, 10:50 AM | #27 | |
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So yeah, it obviously can work, with some careful planning. But that's kinda' my point. Why even bother, unless it's your only computer and you need a laptop for other uses as well? You have a rack with gear, plus the laptop, and I assume an external drive or two as well. Why not just get a bigger rack case, and put a rack-mount PC inside it with the other stuff? (That's what I do.) Then you have only 1 thing to carry, and all your wiring stays connected. (You could even slide a regular LCD into the top, if needed, though I don't as my LCD is built into my controller board.) Plus, then you have the other advantages of a desktop pc. Well, to each his own, obviously. I was just stating my strong preference. |
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05-09-2020, 04:58 PM | #28 | ||
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Same planning is needed with a desktop or rack pc, form factor is not the problem.
Quote:
In fact, I would ask the opposite, why bother with desktop/rack pc, when you can have a laptop with same hardware inside. External drives ? No, I have 3 internal SSDs, and in fact have another slot if I wanted 4th one. Quote:
The cables you see in the photo are from my home, so I have external keyboard, monitor and network plugged in, none of which I use at gigs. What are advantages of desktop pc ? Years ago when there were no laptops with desktop CPU perhaps, but nowadays there is really no difference, other than cooling. Yeah, I'm not trying to start a fight either, just voicing my view. |
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05-09-2020, 10:11 PM | #29 | |
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-Michael |
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05-10-2020, 03:14 AM | #30 | ||
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The point I'm trying to make is that 5-10 years ago there was a big difference in performance between laptops and desktops, but not so any more. Last edited by brk303; 05-10-2020 at 05:11 PM. |
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05-17-2020, 11:42 PM | #31 |
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Hey there,
Not sure it will help but have you considered these: 3XS custom built laptops/desktops? www.scan.co.uk V |
05-18-2020, 10:22 AM | #32 |
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Yep. Their Audio Laptops feature NVIDIA hardware and hence a dedicated Video memory !
-Michael |
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