Go Back   Cockos Incorporated Forums > REAPER Forums > Dstruct's Casa De Nitpicks

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-16-2022, 08:48 PM   #1
thommazk
Human being with feelings
 
thommazk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Brazil
Posts: 196
Default MIDI Editor - drag to extend a note seems off

Hi,

I was wondering if we could improve the feeling of dragging the mouse to draw or extend a note.


In the gif, the MIDI Editor seems to calculate half of the MIDI grid cell pixel size and wait for the mouse cursor to move this distance to extend the note. If you happen to click at the beginning of the cell, the note will be extended way before the mouse cursor crosses the grid to the next cell!

I find this very unintuitive as it's not visually well represented (normally you'd just click in the grid you want to start, not worrying with the exact mouse cursor, and extend to the measure you want, based on the grid lines)

Take a look at FL Studio MIDI Editor:


It waits until you "draw" the entire grid measure to extend the note and that makes total sense to me.

I think it'll improve the overall experience of the MIDI editor.

Thanks!
thommazk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2022, 04:27 AM   #2
mccrabney
Human being with feelings
 
mccrabney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 3,700
Default

agreed, thanks for expressing this so well
__________________
mccrabney scripts: MIDI edits from the Arrange screen ala jjos/MPC sequencer
mccrabney is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-17-2022, 06:25 AM   #3
sockmonkey72
Human being with feelings
 
sockmonkey72's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Berlin
Posts: 2,017
Default

+1 this would definitely improve the feel
__________________
ReaPack Repository: right-click and copy index URL
sockmonkey72 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-19-2022, 07:03 PM   #4
ferropop
Human being with feelings
 
ferropop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 3,192
Default

Please +100 it's maybe stronger than just a nitpick, it generates wrong behaviour really often.
__________________
FERRO
Songs I've Written/Produced : https://t.ly/OtOM-
Instagram : http://www.instagram.com/ferropop
ferropop is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-20-2022, 06:01 AM   #5
mccrabney
Human being with feelings
 
mccrabney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 3,700
Default

yup, this is almost certainly one of the "REAPER's midi workflow is not smooth but i cannot articulate why" ghost issues that people bring up sometimes. these are very valuable fixes to make, even if the fanfare is low for them.

you don't really notice if you're editing recorded notes, only when you're drawing stuff in
__________________
mccrabney scripts: MIDI edits from the Arrange screen ala jjos/MPC sequencer
mccrabney is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2022, 05:07 AM   #6
thommazk
Human being with feelings
 
thommazk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Brazil
Posts: 196
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mccrabney View Post
yup, this is almost certainly one of the "REAPER's midi workflow is not smooth but i cannot articulate why" ghost issues that people bring up sometimes. these are very valuable fixes to make, even if the fanfare is low for them.

you don't really notice if you're editing recorded notes, only when you're drawing stuff in
Actually, if you're editing recorded notes you'll deal with this problem since it seems that it uses the same calculation to measure the grid when dragging a note, for example.
thommazk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2022, 11:26 AM   #7
Daodan
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,226
Default

Yes.
Daodan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-21-2022, 11:31 AM   #8
strachupl
Human being with feelings
 
strachupl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 658
Default

Makes sense.
__________________
Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude.
It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;
it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Corinthians 13:4-6
strachupl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2022, 01:38 AM   #9
pcp
Human being with feelings
 
pcp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Singapore
Posts: 182
Default

This would greatly improve the MIDI editor's mousefeel, nicely illustrated.
I agree it's more a bug than a nit-pick, as I can't think of a use-case in which left-dragging across one bar, and keeping your mouse cursor within the bar, should insert a note length of more than one bar. With REAPER it can, depending where in the note/grid you start to drag... is that actually useful to anyone?
pcp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2022, 05:20 AM   #10
PMan
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 671
Default

Turn off "snap to grid" and it works like you want.

PMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2022, 05:53 AM   #11
strachupl
Human being with feelings
 
strachupl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 658
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PMan View Post
Turn off "snap to grid" and it works like you want.

You don't get it....
__________________
Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude.
It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful;
it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Corinthians 13:4-6
strachupl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2022, 06:24 AM   #12
PMan
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 671
Default

So you want snap to grid to only affect the note start?
PMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2022, 06:47 AM   #13
pcp
Human being with feelings
 
pcp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Singapore
Posts: 182
Default

Look at the OPs gif again, just at the first note inserted.
Note where his mouse cursor is (still within first beat) when the note snaps to the end of beat 2.
pcp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2022, 06:55 AM   #14
thommazk
Human being with feelings
 
thommazk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Brazil
Posts: 196
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PMan View Post
Turn off "snap to grid" and it works like you want.

I'm not sure you understand the point of the topic. Disabling the grid would be another kind of use...

Quote:
Originally Posted by PMan View Post
So you want snap to grid to only affect the note start?
This topic is for when you need to have the grid enabled and want to drag extending the note to another grid cell that is either forward or behind the note start.

The point is that when you're seeing the grid (therefore, using grid snap) the snap note is happening in a different place than where the mouse is indicating where it should happen.
thommazk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2022, 07:10 AM   #15
PMan
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 671
Default

I can disable snap to grid and still *see* the grid.

But I understand, you want snap to grid to only affect the start of the note, not the ending.

Kinda like in quantize, you can choose to quantize position, position and note end, etc.

I didn't understand in the beginning. Now I do. I think it's a great idea.
PMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2022, 07:24 AM   #16
thommazk
Human being with feelings
 
thommazk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Brazil
Posts: 196
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PMan View Post
I can disable snap to grid and still *see* the grid.
You're right! I didn't consider this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PMan View Post
But I understand, you want snap to grid to only affect the start of the note, not the ending.

Kinda like in quantize, you can choose to quantize position, position and note end, etc.

I didn't understand in the beginning. Now I do. I think it's a great idea.
Not quite. I think there's even an option to snap the grid to the left Options: Always snap notes to the left (when snap is enabled). The thing is when you drag to extend the note, you should be able to move the mouse off the entire grid cell before the note extends to change its length.
thommazk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2022, 07:35 AM   #17
PMan
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 671
Default

OK, I looked more closely at the gif in the first post. That is strange behavior! At first I couldn't reproduce it. This is what I found:

There are 2 sets of parameters that affect this, Grid, and Notes. When I set *Notes* to 1/2, any note I draw (even with snap to grid off) will be at least a 1/2 note in length. It will follow the cursor when I drag, though.

It's still not exactly the same behavior. I can't get it to do what you show in the gif. I'm on Linux, Reaper 6.61. I'll try to figure out how to do licecaps so I can share my screen.
PMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2022, 07:37 AM   #18
PMan
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 671
Default

I appreciate you taking the time to explain this to me. It is *really* strange behavior. I can't reproduce it, but I learned a bit about what the "Notes" parameters do.

Thanks again!
PMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2022, 08:03 AM   #19
swindus
Human being with feelings
 
swindus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Wuppertal
Posts: 216
Default

+1
Yes, that would be nice!
swindus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2022, 08:08 AM   #20
pcp
Human being with feelings
 
pcp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Singapore
Posts: 182
Default

I can reproduce it with no scripts running on Windows 11.
If it's not working like this on Linux then it is probably a straightforward bug.
@PMan did you try dragging from near the left-side/start of the note?
The behaviour seems to be dependent on the point that you start dragging.
pcp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2022, 08:24 AM   #21
pcp
Human being with feelings
 
pcp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Singapore
Posts: 182
Default

Happens dragging left too. Dragging through a grid line with snap on does not extend the note there, if you start dragging from the 'wrong' place on the note.

https://i.imgur.com/7QOSHaK.gif


Last edited by pcp; 06-22-2022 at 08:30 AM. Reason: minifying the gif
pcp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2022, 08:29 AM   #22
PMan
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 671
Default

Yes, I did. I also tried with snap to grid on, starting right on the grid. It never extended past the next grid, except when I first clicked to add a note, and *Notes* was set to a larger value than the grid.
PMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2022, 09:08 AM   #23
pcp
Human being with feelings
 
pcp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Singapore
Posts: 182
Default



Should this be moved to the bugs forum? Do the devs monitor this one?

It took a few tries to licecap how note dragging is affected, in fact this GIF shows how inconsistent the behaviour is... for the first two notes I try and drag (F and G), it works perfectly. Then the buggy snapping starts with F#. And after that, the F and G now have the same issue.
pcp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2022, 09:14 AM   #24
thommazk
Human being with feelings
 
thommazk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Brazil
Posts: 196
Default

Yeah, I think that's not just a nitpick anymore. It looks like is a bug with some nitpick things that should be adjusted as well.
I'm not sure if devs look at this channel. I posted in their last dev+ release to see if they can check it, so now it's up to them and their priorities.

I mean, this would be one of the most important fixes related to MIDI Editor imo. It will greatly improve the overall feeling when writing MIDI! I really hope they check this topic
thommazk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-22-2022, 01:28 PM   #25
Vagelis
Human being with feelings
 
Vagelis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Larisa, Greece
Posts: 3,890
Default

FL looks nice, in Reaper I have the same feeling when drawing notes, sometimes it's not very precise where they land on grid, an improvement on this would be very much appreciated. +1
Vagelis is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2022, 06:23 AM   #26
thommazk
Human being with feelings
 
thommazk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Brazil
Posts: 196
Default

Should I post this in bugs? Maybe it'll get more visibility
thommazk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2022, 07:21 AM   #27
pcp
Human being with feelings
 
pcp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Singapore
Posts: 182
Default

That'd be great, I'd call it a bug given it's both bizarre and inconsistent behaviour. I might spin up an ancient portable install when I get home to see if it worked this way in 5.99, or was introduced and never clearly classified as a problem. Once you see it, you can't unsee it and I agree with mccrabney that it's probably a big reason people say the midi editor feels "off" without being able to explain how.

They seem to have a strict policy of not engaging with unrelated feature requests posted in the pre release threads too (which makes sense) so a bug report linking back to here might be more fruitful...
pcp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-23-2022, 05:23 PM   #28
thommazk
Human being with feelings
 
thommazk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: Brazil
Posts: 196
Default

I just wrote the problem in the bugs section. I hope they check this!
https://forum.cockos.com/showthread....30#post2572030
thommazk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2024, 07:00 AM   #29
mccrabney
Human being with feelings
 
mccrabney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 3,700
Default

bump
__________________
mccrabney scripts: MIDI edits from the Arrange screen ala jjos/MPC sequencer
mccrabney is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2024, 09:26 AM   #30
ferropop
Human being with feelings
 
ferropop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 3,192
Default

+1000 we'd benefit greatly from this gentle nitpick being looked at!
__________________
FERRO
Songs I've Written/Produced : https://t.ly/OtOM-
Instagram : http://www.instagram.com/ferropop
ferropop is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2024, 12:22 PM   #31
ferropop
Human being with feelings
 
ferropop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 3,192
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by thommazk View Post
Hi,

Take a look at FL Studio MIDI Editor:


It waits until you "draw" the entire grid measure to extend the note and that makes total sense to me.
this is by far the strongest demonstration of what feels off in Reaper. FL above looks and acts exactly as one would expect. Natural, predictable, obvious. Been a daily Reaper user since 2009, and still struggle with the unnatural drag/draw behaviour. I think that suggests at least something is off, unless it means I'm a total degenerate haha.
__________________
FERRO
Songs I've Written/Produced : https://t.ly/OtOM-
Instagram : http://www.instagram.com/ferropop
ferropop is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:56 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.