Old 02-14-2011, 06:18 AM   #1
schwa
Administrator
 
schwa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 9,700
Default MIDI snap to key/chord

Please use this thread to suggest scales and chords that should be included in the MIDI editor snap-to-key list, report errors in scale/chord definitions, suggest priority ordering for the list, and debate subtleties (such as whether a blues scale should include a major 2nd).

Bonus points to the first person to use "Super-Locrian" in a sentence that does not have quotes around "Super-Locrian".
schwa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 06:46 AM   #2
Ollie
Super Moderator (no feelings)
 
Ollie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: On or near a dike
Posts: 9,705
Default

I'd love to have some cool ready-to-use "all the new rob" style "universal" jazzy piano voicings to instantly pop out 45 lounge tunes per minute. Anyone who knows how to use a Rhodes and 2-3 chords to mesmerize people one step forward please... (OK just dreaming, maybe a bit "special" )
Ollie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 07:12 AM   #3
mcshane
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 35
Default chords

Aeolian has a nice list his custom actions. Perhaps a good starting point?

Maj
Min
Aug
Dim
Maj7
m7
7
Dim7
Maj9
m9
9
mMaj7
7b9
m6
m7(b9)
Maj7#11
Pedal - Major
Pedal - Minor
Invert Pedal - Major
Invert Pedal - Minor
Bass 4ths
Bass 5ths
Octaves
mcshane is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 08:16 AM   #4
Evan
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Greece
Posts: 3,519
Default

Thoughts:

Could the chords/scales be defined in an external file(s)? This will allow the users to add new unheard-of or traditional definitions. It will also allow for translations...

example: Do, Re, Mi... instead of C, D, E

In fact, the centralized chords+scales definitions could be used throughout Reaper, also affecting e.g. the piano roll names, the virtual MIDI keyboard names, and future features involving music theory.

I like that the keys in the piano roll change to reflect the scales, but they active keys are not too clear. Instead of changing transparency of the 'wrong' keys, which doesn't work too well, maybe try a dark grey color overlay? Or something of that nature.

coming soon with more thoughts...
Evan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 08:26 AM   #5
typewriter
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 526
Default

For the orchestration people among us it would be nice to split a chord to different midi channels (i.e. different instruments for each chord note).

Just in case this is intended as a cool action set...
typewriter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 08:28 AM   #6
DarkStar
Human being with feelings
 
DarkStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Surrey, UK
Posts: 17,537
Default

@ Evan:
As in: http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=1447 ?
__________________
DarkStar ... interesting, if true. Inspired by ...
DarkStar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 08:30 AM   #7
Evan
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Greece
Posts: 3,519
Default

@DarkStar

exactly! I have voted already, hope more will follow, thanks!
Evan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 08:43 AM   #8
EvilDragon
Human being with feelings
 
EvilDragon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Croatia
Posts: 22,160
Default

I second Evan's suggestion - please make it as editable text file (possibly also allow sub-menus)!
EvilDragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 08:48 AM   #9
Sibben
Human being with feelings
 
Sibben's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Sweden.
Posts: 1,063
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
Got my vote. Would be really good to have.
Sibben is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 09:28 AM   #10
dadek
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 63
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilDragon View Post
also allow sub-menus)!
+1 and +1
dadek is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 09:34 AM   #11
Subz
Human being with feelings
 
Subz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 2,932
Default

Sub menus!!!

Pentatonic could have it own folder even

i don't know there names or the scales but i know there are mare than 2 pentatonic scales (or my kayboard player lied to me!)

+1 to editable file that can be updated with scales

a Scaled editor would be kewl (would only need to be a small window with keys named Root & + / - numbers per semitone)

just thoughts!! i know Knuff all about scales!!

Subz
Subz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 09:37 AM   #12
Evan
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Greece
Posts: 3,519
Default

More thoughts...

Isn't it better to label the items list like this...
scale: major
scale: minor
scale: pentatonic
chord: major
chord: minor

That way scales and chords are separated more clearly.

(or do it with sub-menus)
Evan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 09:38 AM   #13
Mercado_Negro
Moderator
 
Mercado_Negro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Caracas, Venezuela
Posts: 8,229
Default

What's Super-Locrian?

How can I spend my bonus points?
__________________
Pressure is what turns coal into diamonds - Michael a.k.a. Runaway
Mercado_Negro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 09:42 AM   #14
Subz
Human being with feelings
 
Subz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 2,932
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercado_Negro View Post
What's Super-Locrian?

How can I spend my bonus points?

well bad grammar dose not count as a win!!

Subz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 10:16 AM   #15
PitchSlap
Human being with feelings
 
PitchSlap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 3,176
Default

Thanks for this feature!

I'd really like to see similar for the Virtual MIDI Keyboard so only notes of the selected scale are mapped to keys.

This would make it easier to use (no wasted keys) and expand the ranges of octaves that can be played.

Also, seeing as users have created chord and arpeggio actions, I think a random melody generator would be very useful. The action could probably use the current selected scale in the MIDI editor, we'd just need the ability to set the number of octaves...
__________________
FRs: v5 Media Explorer Requests, Global Quantization, Session View
Win10 64-bit, Reaper 5(x64), Core i7-5700HQ, 16GB RAM, GeForce GTX 960M, SSD
PitchSlap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 10:33 AM   #16
hopi
Human being with feelings
 
hopi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Right Hear
Posts: 13,626
Default

Look, up in the sky! It's a bird, it's a plane, no... it's

Super-Locrian

[eye no MN won but could not resist ]
__________________
...should be fixed for the next build... http://tinyurl.com/cr7o7yl
https://soundcloud.com/hopikiva/angel-rain
hopi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 10:52 AM   #17
rennect
Human being with feelings
 
rennect's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Russian Federation
Posts: 221
Default

Edit: this seems to be fixed in alpha41. I think minor scales is probably misnamed. What is called "Minor" now is actually "Ascending Melodic Minor", and what is called "Harmonic Minor" is actually "Natural Minor". See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minor_scale. I think there should be at least three minors: Natural, Melodic (both ascending and descending in one scale) and Harmonic.

Also I suggest adding "Pentatonic Minor" to the default set, as it being a subset of minors, seems to be often useful.

And I double the idea that this set should be editable. Not a fancy editor, but an easy editable text file is enough.

Sub-menus? No, I think it will only complicate things, because it will be harder to select a needed scale if you're using just 2 or 3 of them and the configuration file for scales can become more complex for hand editing.
__________________
FR Promotion: Session View | Preset manager

Last edited by rennect; 02-14-2011 at 11:04 AM.
rennect is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 11:31 AM   #18
gwok
Human being with feelings
 
gwok's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Nelson, BC
Posts: 3,310
Default

forget Super-locrian

Altered Dominant!!
__________________
MacPro Xeon, 10.9.5
Reaper 5
gwok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 01:52 PM   #19
Aeolian
Human being with feelings
 
Aeolian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Somewhere PRO
Posts: 958
Default

We cant forget Ultralocrian (7th mode of Harmonic minor, or Altered Dominant bb7)

Seriously though:


Scales
Major (Ionian)
Dorian
Phrygian
Lydian
Mixolydian
Minor (Aeolian)
Locrian

Harmonic Minor
Locrian Natural 6
Ionian Augmented
Dorian #4
Phrygian Dominant
Lydian #2
Altered Dominant bb7 (Ultralocrian)

Melodic Minor
Dorian b2
Lydian Augmented
Lydian Dominant
Mixolydian b6
Locrian #2
Altered Dominant (Superlocrian)

Diminished
Diminished Dominant
Augmented

Major Pentatonic
Minor Pentatonic
Blues

Chromatic


No exotics listed, but most of those exotics are not equal temp anyway.
Those Harmonic Minor modes listed above sound pretty damn exotic
Aeolian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 01:58 PM   #20
gofer
-blänk-
 
gofer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,074
Default

Two ideas occurred to me:
1)
It would be totally awesome if we can have actions to in/decrease the active position obeying the valid pitches of the currently selected scale/chord. So the active position moves only on valid pitches.

We could make a single "build triad" action to build the correct modal chord depending on where the active position is.

Example:
Say we're in the key of C major and want to build the incredible chord sequence Cmaj Fmaj emin amin Gmaj Bdim Cmaj

Instead of constantly changing key and chord or use three different chord actions for maj, min and dim we could simply move the active position and edit cursor to the next chord root pitch and use a single action namely:

Code:
Insert note at current note
Increase active position one step (depending on current scale)
Increase active position one step (depending on current scale)
Insert note at current note
Increase active position one step (depending on current scale)
Increase active position one step (depending on current scale)
Insert note at current note
We'd move the active position C F E A G B C and the action would take care of where to use major/minor or diminished.

Another slightly extended one would cater for all possible kinds of sept-chords within the modal scales. Have closed/open variants of both, or do chord inversion actions easily and you're all set for the pop/rock ballad.

This will extremely cut down the amount of needed custom chord actions to collect a comprehensive library.

The current "In/decrease active position by semitone should stay untouched, although the new ones would do the same if the "Key" checkbox is unchecked.

2)
I'd love to have a mouse modifier with which I could select a (quantized) chord, grab the uppermost note and drag it left/right and all selected notes would spread apart to form a strum or glissando.
The lowest note would keep its position, the uppermost would move the furthest, in between notes move relative to that. Note lengths wouldn't change (that would be a cool action idea for note edge drag, though).

Form strums/glissandos in a single drag. Cool.
gofer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 02:01 PM   #21
schwa
Administrator
 
schwa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 9,700
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
grab the uppermost note and drag it left/right and all selected notes would spread apart to form a strum or glissando.
We'd like to add this but we don't have any idea how to describe it in the mouse modifiers preferences page. Suggestions? "Stretch note selection" ?
schwa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 02:02 PM   #22
captain caveman
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,616
Default

They may be in that list under a different name, but those action sequence hexatonic and octatonic scales would be good to have in.
captain caveman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 02:07 PM   #23
Aeolian
Human being with feelings
 
Aeolian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Somewhere PRO
Posts: 958
Default

Chords

Major
6
6/9
6sus4
Maj7
Maj7b5
Maj7#5
Maj7#11
Maj7add13
Maj9
Maj9sus4
Maj9#5
Maj9#11
Maj11
Maj13

m
m6
m6add9
m7
m7b9
m7add11
m7add13
mMaj7
mMaj7add11
mMaj7add13
m9
m11
m13
mMaj9
mMaj11
mMaj13

7
7b5
7#5
7b9
7#9
7#5b9
7#5#9
7b5b9
7b5#9
7add11
7#11
7add13
9
9b5
9#5
9#11
9b13
11
11b9
13
13b9
13#9
13b5b9

dim
dim7
m7b5
m9b5
aug
aug7

sus2
sus4
7sus4
9sus4

5 (triad "no3")
Oct
Aeolian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 02:19 PM   #24
mabian
Human being with feelings
 
mabian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Italy
Posts: 3,540
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
We'd like to add this but we don't have any idea how to describe it in the mouse modifiers preferences page. Suggestions? "Stretch note selection" ?
Lovely!

"Shrink/Expand note selection" ?

"Compress/Expand note selection" ?

- Mario
__________________
My DAW: Intel i7700k @4.2GHz / 16GB RAM / RME Fireface UC / 250GB SSD / 2x2TB HD / Win10x64
My Music: http://www.reverbnation.com/errepici - http://www.errepici.it/web/contents.asp?sec=4
mabian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 02:21 PM   #25
gofer
-blänk-
 
gofer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 11,074
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
We'd like to add this but we don't have any idea how to describe it in the mouse modifiers preferences page. Suggestions? "Stretch note selection" ?


Someone give this kid a name, quick. I am awful at that.

"Stretch note selection" seems too similar to "stretch notes, which also works on selected notes only, so I don't tink it's optimal. Maybe something with "arpeggiate"? "Drag glissando"? Did I mention I'm awful at that?

Suggestions please

Ah, Mabian comes with good ones
gofer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 02:29 PM   #26
captain caveman
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,616
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gofer View Post
Suggestions please
I dunno, could it be done with the existing stretch modifier, but moving the cursor up and down instead of left and right?
captain caveman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 02:40 PM   #27
Guod3
Human being with feelings
 
Guod3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 506
Default

-template based approach: users a select from a custom or stock set of chords and/or scales (scale/chord template)

-The scales and chords can be manually edited and stored in folders (to define a tree) to reflect the level of organisation that the user wants

-template definition includes content and hierarchy (tree, nesting)

-scale/chord templates could be shared or discarded

- Include tools for defining scales and chords with midi editor actions (define scale chord definition by selecting notes)

Super-Lochrian!
Guod3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 02:42 PM   #28
zappsunzorn
Human being with feelings
 
zappsunzorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Virginia Beach VA
Posts: 2,266
Default

This is teetering on the edge of on/off topic, but one topic kind of brings up the other.

What about tuning?

Why have everything play in equal temperament when we can tune every note played individually and have a different tuning per chord with the technology we have today? We have the technology, but it seems that nobody is paying much attention to it, or making it easy, compared to timing accuracy, for example.
zappsunzorn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 02:44 PM   #29
Kundalinguist
Human being with feelings
 
Kundalinguist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 4,576
Default

No "Snap to Hit Song" option? Pfff.
__________________
Success is just one more plugin away! And happiness is as close as your next upgrade.
Kundalinguist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 02:51 PM   #30
zappsunzorn
Human being with feelings
 
zappsunzorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Virginia Beach VA
Posts: 2,266
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kundalinguist View Post
No "Snap to Hit Song" option? Pfff.
You can already do that in the main window, but the results are not always good.

Edit: I find it funny that I was so careful about possibly being a little off topic in my last post and then posted this
zappsunzorn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 03:01 PM   #31
Aeolian
Human being with feelings
 
Aeolian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Somewhere PRO
Posts: 958
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kundalinguist View Post
No "Snap to Hit Song" option? Pfff.
The Devs are already onto it

coming in a42
Aeolian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 03:05 PM   #32
Argitoth
Human being with feelings
 
Argitoth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 2,055
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by typewriter View Post
For the orchestration people among us it would be nice to split a chord to different midi channels (i.e. different instruments for each chord note).

Just in case this is intended as a cool action set...
This is useful for many things:

-Vocoding multiple vocals into harmonies
-Analog synthesizers with low polyphony
-Giving each harmony its own vst instrument
-Splitting harmonies for general compositional management, easier editing.
Argitoth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 03:12 PM   #33
gwok
Human being with feelings
 
gwok's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Nelson, BC
Posts: 3,310
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeolian View Post
We cant forget Ultralocrian (7th mode of Harmonic minor, or Altered Dominant bb7)
nor harmonic major and derived modes - or maybe thats going to far
__________________
MacPro Xeon, 10.9.5
Reaper 5
gwok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 03:38 PM   #34
henge
Human being with feelings
 
henge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,153
Default

I used to have a dog named Locrian. When he did a trick I'd say " super Locrian ". Sorry.
__________________
Registered Reaper user.
http://www.villageworkscanada.com/landingpad.cfm
henge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 04:15 PM   #35
Evan
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Greece
Posts: 3,519
Default

Ideas that may be useful:

- Insert 2/3/4/5-note chord actions, that obey the scale snaps or the chord snaps. You insert the root note and the next notes are inserted automatically.

- Switch to relative scale action... e.g. if you're in C major, takes you to A minor, or the other way around.

- Group notes (like item groups). Chords can be grouped notes, and thus manipulated as a group, each chord or arpeggio being a separate group.

- Chord inversion actions. Lowest note goes 1 octave up, or highest note goes one octave down.

- Ultimately, and a powerful way to use chords, is drag-n-drop chords. Having a separate list of chords, dragging and dropping them in the MIDI editor. Much faster than drawing and changing the combo-boxes every time.
Evan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 04:18 PM   #36
Evan
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Greece
Posts: 3,519
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
We'd like to add this but we don't have any idea how to describe it in the mouse modifiers preferences page. Suggestions? "Stretch note selection" ?
Spread notes in selection?
Evan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 04:33 PM   #37
semiquaver
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,904
Default

hmmm ...

Any hope of implementing alternative tuning schemes with more/fewer that 12 notes/octave. Using .scala definitions?? Its a vigorous niche market and would be super cool to play with.....


Anyhow we need these symmetrical scales:

whole tone (6 notes/octave)
octatonic (half - whole, 8 notes/octave)


how 'bout these chords:

diminished
half-diminished 7th
fully diminished 7th

French sixth

minor major 7

+ Some of the jazz chords are not worth snapping to because so many notes are in the chord! - c13 *might* include c d e f g a b-flat ... and needing to maintain a c13flat9 and c13sharp11 just gets looney at some point....
semiquaver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 05:18 PM   #38
schwa
Administrator
 
schwa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NY
Posts: 9,700
Default

We will be adding the ability for users to define their own scales and chords, so it probably makes sense to keep the stock list concise.
schwa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 05:25 PM   #39
chriscomfort
Human being with feelings
 
chriscomfort's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: NYC
Posts: 1,732
Default

I love this new feature, but correct me if I'm wrong. Isn't it standard practice that a "Minor" scale implies Natural minor? I think it should be written as such and Melodic minor referred to as Melodic Minor.
__________________
http://chriscomfortmusic.com
chriscomfort is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2011, 06:19 PM   #40
audioguytodd
Human being with feelings
 
audioguytodd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Atlanta, GA
Posts: 1,050
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by schwa View Post
We will be adding the ability for users to define their own scales and chords, so it probably makes sense to keep the stock list concise.
Yes, I agree. I would stick with basic scales (all the modes) maybe a few more and that's it. You get to a point of where the scale name can be redundant and there still is some disagreement of the names of a few.

EDIT: I probably won't use this feature much- but I would use it more if I can define my own scales/chords without having to scroll through a bunch that I would never use.
__________________
Comp Specs: WIN XPSP3, Q6600, ASUSP5K, 3 GB PC6400 RAM, Focusrite Saffire, AlphaTrack, lots of plugins and hardware.

Last edited by audioguytodd; 02-14-2011 at 07:03 PM.
audioguytodd is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:57 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.