Old 02-15-2011, 10:48 AM   #81
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"Snap to key" is correct because you can define both the key AND the scale.

No, it's not correct. Key is not "defined". Reaper is not a musical analysis tool. However, snapping to a Scale defines that notes should stick to, say, CDEFGAB. While this may be the notes that comprise the key of C, ie there are no sharps or flats, it does not define the key. Because if the Violin is playing CEDEFGAB but the Cello is playing AbBbCDbEbFG, it is absolutely not in the key of C.

p.s., the Cubendo dialog above is beautifully concise, I miss using that. The only change I'd make to that is possibly having a write-in box to create scales.

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Old 02-15-2011, 11:54 AM   #82
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Old 02-15-2011, 12:06 PM   #83
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No, it's not correct. Key is not "defined".
It is defined if I say so. If I write a song in G minor, then I'd sure as hell want snap to key.


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Old 02-15-2011, 12:23 PM   #84
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Default More rambling about key vs scale and why it's important

In the first measure, you have what we could call a C chord and an F chord. Since there are no bass notes here, really it could be A min 7 and F/Ab, we don't really know because this is only the guitar part and the bass part is in another midi part. So defining a key here is not only wrong because we don't know the bass part yet, but also because a key hasn't yet been established.

In the second measure, a key of F has been established because there is a V7-I cadence. (assuming the bassline is playing C-F)

In the fourth measure, the same chords lead to the key of C as a V7-1 cadence is established.

In the Second example, the right hand is playing what we could call a C scale but we are definitely not in 'C'ansas any more, Dorothy. The bassline provides ambiguity and is leading us somewhere yet to be established. There is some brushing up against "tonal areas", but no key is established...yet. So if I'm using Reaper and I suddenly want all the B's in the right-hand to become Bb, I can use "snap to SCALE", to make it so. Using the term "Key" here is incorrect, as no key is established, while the term Scale is correct because the notes are locked into CEDFGAB.

Let's also consider the fact that we can be in the key of C but have PASSING TONES, NEIGHBORING TONES, ETC, which are not in the SCALE of C. If I have a rush of 16th notes going C-D-E-F-G-A-*Bb-B-C, I can still be in the KEY of C, but I have a passing tone of Bb.

My overall point being that one cannot say "snap to key" without there being some analysis because you first must establish what the function of the chords at hand are. If I select that C and F chord and say "snap to key of G", then Reaper must first know if that C and F are the I and V of C or the V and I of F, etc.

So anyways, Drag, I know you're gunning for that 10,000th comment before Easter but let's keep it real, dawg.
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Old 02-15-2011, 12:34 PM   #85
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I'm just teasing you a bit, bro, hence the smiley I definitely do know the difference between key and scale.



Sorry bout that.
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Old 02-15-2011, 12:51 PM   #86
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S'all good man, sometimes us little guys have to shout louder to make sure the devs are actually reading what we have to say. I may not have brilliant ideas about how to nest another 28 menus and create a programming language out of a transposing dialog, but that's because I'm a practicing musician and don't have time to muck around with the engineering side and play around on forums...just need ish to work!

I do think the terminology is important. That's obviously why Cubendo built their transpose/scale dialog the way they did. Even though theirs is a little limiting by not having custom scales, its' a great model.
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Old 02-15-2011, 01:03 PM   #87
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HOLY FUCK!
This post best sums up my feelings
Yet wonderfully understated
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Old 02-15-2011, 01:33 PM   #88
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So defining a key here is not only wrong because we don't know the bass part yet, but also because a key hasn't yet been established.
The key HAS been established.

By You ..... The Composer.

The MIDI Editor then reflects this by highlighting/snapping the notes present in that key.

Dead simple
....And its this reason why i prefer it to read "Snap to key" like it does.
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Old 02-15-2011, 01:41 PM   #89
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Is it possible to automate the key/scale changes?
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Old 02-15-2011, 01:58 PM   #90
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The key HAS been established.

By You ..... The Composer.

The MIDI Editor then reflects this by highlighting/snapping the notes present in that key.

Dead simple
....And its this reason why i prefer it to read "Snap to key" like it does.
What you've just described is exactly what I discussed. Congratulations. You've snapped to a SCALE, not a key.

You didn't read the rest of the post...Reaper cannot snap the chord/note to a key if it does not know what the function of the current chord/note is. A chord of CEG is the I of C but it is the V of F. If we say "snap this to the KEY of G", then Reaper must know if we are currently in the key of C or F or XYZ before it can determine the function of that chord in G. However, to snap to the SCALE of Ab major, now we're talking. The notes move to CEbG and we're now in the SCALE of Ab major.
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Old 02-15-2011, 02:10 PM   #91
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Composition majors were the oddest people, where I went to school. This conversation is starting to remind me of that

(note: to be fair, software geeks are odder, as a rule)

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Old 02-15-2011, 02:17 PM   #92
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Composition majors were the oddest people
Wait till you meet composition major 7ths...
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Old 02-15-2011, 02:40 PM   #93
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Key is subjective, defined by intent and broader context.

Scale is much more concrete, and therefore useful manifested in tools in a DAW.

I hope we can avoid having REAPER a musicological bias in a certain direction. I think if there were plugins that allow for (working with different musical paradigms) where people choose, then this is the way to go.
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Old 02-15-2011, 02:44 PM   #94
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Key is subjective, defined by intent and broader context.

Scale is much more concrete, and therefore useful manifested in tools in a DAW.
That's a much more eloquent way of putting it, thanks!
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Old 02-15-2011, 03:19 PM   #95
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I'd prefer this snap to chord to be on a right click menu. I'd find it easier to impose chords on notes selected, rather than being stuck down the bottom in a drop down.
It definitely needs to have user chord files we can add to, preferably nested.
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Old 02-15-2011, 03:49 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Guod3 View Post
Key is subjective, defined by intent and broader context.

Scale is much more concrete, and therefore useful manifested in tools in a DAW.
Very well put.

Quote:
I hope we can avoid having REAPER a musicological bias in a certain direction. I think if there were plugins that allow for (working with different musical paradigms) where people choose, then this is the way to go.
+1000 for this too. Which reminds me of this:
http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=2667

This is a FR to allow JS plugins to process select notes inside of the MIDI editor, with the same kind of visual feedback that the Quatize dialog has, launched by a Key from within the Editor itself. More like processing than an fx plugin. Please vote if you think this will satisfy your suggestion.
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Old 02-15-2011, 03:58 PM   #97
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Composition majors were the oddest people, where I went to school. This conversation is starting to remind me of that

(note: to be fair, software geeks are odder, as a rule)
As a software engineer, I take exception to that!

Oh wait, no, you're right.... (lol)
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Old 02-15-2011, 04:01 PM   #98
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+1000 for this too. Which reminds me of this:
http://forum.cockos.com/project.php?issueid=2667

This is a FR to allow JS plugins to process select notes inside of the MIDI editor, with the same kind of visual feedback that the Quatize dialog has, launched by a Key from within the Editor itself. More like processing than an fx plugin. Please vote if you think this will satisfy your suggestion.
I like this idea, but maybe a cleaner/easier method would be to just have it in the right-click menu (actionable, of course). You can select a passage and then run one of just a select few midi functions on it, like snap to scale or retrograde or compress dynamics. It's really cool to have the plugin thing but maybe in addition? Maybe it should have a tight focus on basic editing in the right-click menu but with a plug runner as well? Something like:

Right Click-->

Copy
Cut
Paste
Delete
------
Set note ends at start of next note
Quantize
Compress Velocity
Snap to Scale -->(quantize-like dialog)
Transform -->Retrograde, Invert, RI, Permutation
Run Plugin -->(midi FX menu, JS, etc)
----
Properties
Note Channel
(do we really need a velocity menu? there's already the slider, the bars, AND the event list editor...)
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Old 02-15-2011, 04:09 PM   #99
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What is defined is not key, but key signature, which is just a set of predefined sharps or flats. What happens with this set of sharps or flats is entirely up to the composer, doesn't have to build a tonal center (a key if you like), nobody cares...

Key signatures for major and minor keys are defined according to the circle of fifths:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ci...s_deluxe_4.svg

so for major keys it would be: C, G, D, A, E, B, F# / Gb, Db, Ab, Eb, Bb, F
minor keys: a, e, b, f#, c#, g#, d# /eb, bb, f, c, g, d

So, let the user define the key signature in the editor, like it's done with conventional notation on paper. I would swap the widget boxes: left box is the type major / minor / etc. which determines the contet of the right box. So if I choose major, I'd see: C, G, D, A, E, B, F#, Gb, Db, Ab, Eb, Bb, F
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Old 02-15-2011, 04:17 PM   #100
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We'd like to add this but we don't have any idea how to describe it in the mouse modifiers preferences page. Suggestions? "Stretch note selection" ?
How about something like:

arpeggiate note positions
fan out notes to create arpeggiation/strum sequence
evenly spread notes across grid
evenly space notes to create arpeggiation/strum

Stretch to me means extend the length of the note.
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Old 02-15-2011, 04:21 PM   #101
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I see what you're getting at, ElCongelador but it also seems rather useful to just have a select range/run dialog to transform existing passages. I think having a global "lock these notes to this scale" is quite limiting, which may have rare uses but honestly most music has passing-tones and other non-scale tones which would be prevented by a global dialog, whereas a select and transform dialog (like the quantize box) is more flexible and less confusing.
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Old 02-15-2011, 04:54 PM   #102
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I see what you're getting at, ElCongelador but it also seems rather useful to just have a select range/run dialog to transform existing passages. I think having a global "lock these notes to this scale" is quite limiting, which may have rare uses but honestly most music has passing-tones and other non-scale tones which would be prevented by a global dialog, whereas a select and transform dialog (like the quantize box) is more flexible and less confusing.
It's already possible to override (enable / disable) the global setting with the checkbox - maybe assign a hotkey to quickly change while editing?

I think an ideal soultion would be like this: define key signatures not for the whole item, but for parts of the item. A few measures in C, then I modulate to G -> key signature change goes here...
(All this with a quick way to switch between: adhere to key signature(s) - or not while inserting notes; hotkey to toggle, mouse modifier?)

But I suppose we're approaching a score editor with this

Last edited by ElCongelador; 02-15-2011 at 05:20 PM. Reason: clarification
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Old 02-15-2011, 05:51 PM   #103
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Yeah that's getting a little closer to notation territory there. But really you're practically describing a select range/dialog box type situation.

Also in terms of interface cleanliness, I can think of about 10 more things that would take up that space in the editor more usefully (part selection, anyone?!) It seems quite logical to have the area bounding the editor be only things which apply to the logistics of midi rather than midi transformations, which probably belong in a right-click menu or up-top Edit menu...
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Old 02-15-2011, 07:26 PM   #104
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Coming attractions ("arpeggiate"):

How are you painting this?

Can't get this to work.
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Old 02-15-2011, 07:28 PM   #105
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How are you painting this?

Can't get this to work.
"Coming attractions"

It's not possible yet, maybe for alpha42.
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Old 02-15-2011, 08:41 PM   #106
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"Coming attractions"

It's not possible yet, maybe for alpha42.
The painting works right now
Just put it on chord
It's just the arpegio drag that isn't possible right now
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Old 02-15-2011, 09:06 PM   #107
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The painting works right now
Just put it on chord
It's just the arpegio drag that isn't possible right now
Yeah, my bad, I didn't read it correctly... painting, dragging, squeezing, shrinking, oh well, I just misread it
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Old 02-15-2011, 09:12 PM   #108
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On both my XP SP3 desktop and MacBook Pro 10.5.8 laptop, paining notes is restricted to vertical only when a chord is selected and horizontal/diagonal (but not vertical) when a key/scale is selected. Is this by design?
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Old 02-15-2011, 09:20 PM   #109
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On both my XP SP3 desktop and MacBook Pro 10.5.8 laptop, paining notes is restricted to vertical only when a chord is selected and horizontal/diagonal (but not vertical) when a key/scale is selected. Is this by design?
Yeah, I think so. It makes sense that way.
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Old 02-16-2011, 03:11 AM   #110
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I wouldn't want it to remain that way. I'd like to freehand arpeggiate a certain chord, too. Not just stack it. I'd want this "design" to be changed in that regard...
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Old 02-16-2011, 04:03 AM   #111
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(note: to be fair, software geeks are odder, as a rule)
i would agree with this & add that it may only be software developers that out odd us

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Old 02-16-2011, 04:52 AM   #112
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Like this you mean?
I'm not really sure about all those required settings. In PT all you had to do was set the key+octave to convert from and the key+octave to convert to and you were done. It worked very well.

--Bill
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Old 02-16-2011, 07:13 AM   #113
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I like this idea, but maybe a cleaner/easier method would be to just have it in the right-click menu (actionable, of course). You can select a passage and then run one of just a select few midi functions on it, like snap to scale or retrograde or compress dynamics. It's really cool to have the plugin thing but maybe in addition? Maybe it should have a tight focus on basic editing in the right-click menu but with a plug runner as well? Something like:

Right Click-->

Copy
Cut
Paste
Delete
------
Set note ends at start of next note
Quantize
Compress Velocity
Snap to Scale -->(quantize-like dialog)
Transform -->Retrograde, Invert, RI, Permutation
Run Plugin -->(midi FX menu, JS, etc)
----
Properties
Note Channel
(do we really need a velocity menu? there's already the slider, the bars, AND the event list editor...)
The thing is though is that none of that menu isn't achievable with that FR, which includes a comment about directly accessing them in the way you describe.

I miss the polyphonic Legato function from Cubase, which is the point of the FR..... The devs could either do your list, my list, someone elses list etc etc or implement something that allows us all to make our own lists. At some point in the not too distant future an uber-suite of MIDI processing functions could then be assimilated into the Reaper menu/action system and in the meantime, all sorts of exciting MIDI stuff has been coded natively without the devs breaking sweat over the MIDI processing stuff.
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Old 02-16-2011, 11:05 AM   #114
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The thing is though is that none of that menu isn't achievable with that FR, which includes a comment about directly accessing them in the way you describe.

I miss the polyphonic Legato function from Cubase, which is the point of the FR..... The devs could either do your list, my list, someone elses list etc etc or implement something that allows us all to make our own lists. At some point in the not too distant future an uber-suite of MIDI processing functions could then be assimilated into the Reaper menu/action system and in the meantime, all sorts of exciting MIDI stuff has been coded natively without the devs breaking sweat over the MIDI processing stuff.
Exactly. Whether its a right click or a button is user's choice. The point is just to have that one important function added to blow the doors wide open.
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Old 02-16-2011, 11:09 AM   #115
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I'm not really sure about all those required settings. In PT all you had to do was set the key+octave to convert from and the key+octave to convert to and you were done. It worked very well.

--Bill
The thing is is that none of those are "required settings". They are just options to provide greater power. You could, for example, use just the first section, which is semitones up or down. Or just the second section, which would take your MIDI data a force it to a scale but otherwise keep it near where it is in pitch. Or do either of the first two (or both) but keep the notes from going too high or too low.
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Old 02-19-2011, 06:11 AM   #116
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Great improvements in alpha42.

Thoughts...

- Could it be that we define the scale key by clicking on the piano roll keys? (click key to set new root)

- Chord/scale preset slots that can be used from the toolbar and actions? Because a song typically relies on a few main chords.

- Another function that could be very popular is chord memory slots (google: chord memory). These are slots that store chords (the actual events). They can be inserted/drawn into the project (single click inserts chord), or triggered by a MIDI event etc... Just throwing this out there.

- The new transpose window, which is awesome btw, could also facilitate the 'chord inversion' function? It's really just a transposition with some additional logic.

see here: http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=74268

- How about a basic arpeggiator function, using the scale definition, or similar, files? It's as simple as this:

a) define the steps/pattern in the file
b) through reaper, set the typical arp parameters like speed, direction (up, down, up+down), number of steps to follow from the definition file etc...

- Could it be possible to provide additional scales with microtuning support? Perhaps by internally changing the pitch-base of each of the notes. That would allow the use of some eastern scales through the conventional input methods.

rambling on...

Last edited by Evan; 02-19-2011 at 08:46 AM.
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Old 02-20-2011, 09:02 AM   #117
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I'm struggling with a couple of terminology things with the chord area.

Shouldn't the word be NOTE instead of Scale? The entire choice system seems to be based off of a Note, not a scale. Then the list imposes a scale on top of the Note choice from the drop down list.

If it was scale based I would expect e-flat, not d# for example.
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Old 02-20-2011, 10:28 AM   #118
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D#... Eb... It's all enharmonical.
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Old 02-20-2011, 04:14 PM   #119
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I'm struggling with a couple of terminology things with the chord area.

Shouldn't the word be NOTE instead of Scale? The entire choice system seems to be based off of a Note, not a scale. Then the list imposes a scale on top of the Note choice from the drop down list.

If it was scale based I would expect e-flat, not d# for example.
There's some confusion about the terms "scale", "key" and "key signature" because they are used ambiguously. Theoretically though they are different things.
- A scale is merely a sequence of notes with defined intervals between them.
- A key implies a tonal center, a root note around which all else is organized harmonically.
- Key signature is a notational convention for tonal music (music with a "key") used for the last 400 years or so. It's the bunch of # and b you see at the beginning of each staff system. Most music on staffs with a specific key signature is in that key, but it doesn't have to be - often there's lots of modulation going on: then you see additional # and b popping up before individual notes.

So I suppose, as it is now, "scale" is an adequate label. It's neutral and everyone can pick the enharmonic equivalent they need.

But, as I've argued before, it would make a lot of sense to follow the convention of defining a key signature, because that's the practice when writing (tonal) music. Then it would have to be Eb (for major), not D# - in accordance to the circle of fifths.
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Last edited by ElCongelador; 02-20-2011 at 04:17 PM. Reason: refinement
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Old 02-20-2011, 05:07 PM   #120
gpunk_w
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Originally Posted by Ollie View Post
I'd love to have some cool ready-to-use "all the new rob" style "universal" jazzy piano voicings to instantly pop out 45 lounge tunes per minute. Anyone who knows how to use a Rhodes and 2-3 chords to mesmerize people one step forward please... (OK just dreaming, maybe a bit "special" )

I just want a bunch of scales that match them Starsky and Hutch riffs you do in your demo tunes
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