Old 03-27-2012, 11:07 AM   #1
Aesis
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Default Reaper MidiControl?

Hey!

I have some hardware and have set up reaper midicontrol to send CC (cutoff) messages to it. I also use Reainsert to have things synced up.

2 problems:

1) The midi CC changes stutter like mad man. If I move the slider up and down quickly it becomes even more obvious that there is really bad lagging/"random things" going on. How can I fix this?

2) For some reason ReaMidiControl always forces 0 value on start of play back rather than the value specified in the envelope - the value is only changed when the envelope changes to a new value. This means if I am mixing and select a specific part where cutoff is always at 127 the filter will be playing at 0 value and I can't control it (its even worse with other parameters). Anyway to fix this?

Perhaps you guys know of a bit more stable vsti for this?
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Old 03-27-2012, 03:59 PM   #2
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can't really help you with the rest, but give the following a try - options/preferences/audio/midi devices/reset cc on stop/play (untick)

that may help your cc going to 0 thing.
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Old 03-30-2012, 12:56 PM   #3
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can't really help you with the rest, but give the following a try - options/preferences/audio/midi devices/reset cc on stop/play (untick)

that may help your cc going to 0 thing.
Yeah but I want to reset it to whatever value it is at the point in time...

But the first issue is way bigger than that.
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Old 03-31-2012, 10:48 AM   #4
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Hey!

I have some hardware and have set up reaper midicontrol to send CC (cutoff) messages to it. I also use Reainsert to have things synced up.

2 problems:

1) The midi CC changes stutter like mad man. If I move the slider up and down quickly it becomes even more obvious that there is really bad lagging/"random things" going on. How can I fix this?

2) For some reason ReaMidiControl always forces 0 value on start of play back rather than the value specified in the envelope - the value is only changed when the envelope changes to a new value. This means if I am mixing and select a specific part where cutoff is always at 127 the filter will be playing at 0 value and I can't control it (its even worse with other parameters). Anyway to fix this?

Perhaps you guys know of a bit more stable vsti for this?
Hi..

Ill take a stab at item 1...do u have the MIDI channel setting in REacontrol Midi set to all?.. Dont laugh happened to me^^

Guido

Edit.... about issue 2..reaper chases events in Items..so if i understand u correctly, couldn't u enter the value u need in the begining of the item and use the advice moliere said?

sorry if i misunderstand^^
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Old 04-04-2012, 12:58 PM   #5
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Hi..

Ill take a stab at item 1...do u have the MIDI channel setting in REacontrol Midi set to all?.. Dont laugh happened to me^^

Guido

Edit.... about issue 2..reaper chases events in Items..so if i understand u correctly, couldn't u enter the value u need in the begining of the item and use the advice moliere said?

sorry if i misunderstand^^
Thanks I had send to "all" channels indeed. Why does this kind of lag happen when my synth is set to receive only channel 1 and 2?

Anyway there is still hint of that lagginess. Plucking filter sounds like it sometimes randomly goes up. Any ideas what could be the cause?
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Old 04-04-2012, 01:36 PM   #6
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Thanks I had send to "all" channels indeed. Why does this kind of lag happen when my synth is set to receive only channel 1 and 2?

Anyway there is still hint of that lagginess. Plucking filter sounds like it sometimes randomly goes up. Any ideas what could be the cause?
Hi,

The All Channels thing happens because ur sending 16 Midi channels worth of CC data at EXACTLY the same time. And that clogs the midi "pipes"^^ Not a Reaper thing tho in my experience. Just dont do that^^

I use a lot of ext midi with Reaper but I dont use Reainsert...to bring ext midi device's audio back in I use a separate track with Record enabled and the option monitor only..Right click on the rec arm button to set.

btw the default on REacontrolMidi should be 1 not all so as any new users wouldnt be affected by this behavior.

Glad to hear on 1 and hope this helps 2^^

Guido
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Old 04-04-2012, 03:37 PM   #7
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Hi,

The All Channels thing happens because ur sending 16 Midi channels worth of CC data at EXACTLY the same time. And that clogs the midi "pipes"^^ Not a Reaper thing tho in my experience. Just dont do that^^

I use a lot of ext midi with Reaper but I dont use Reainsert...to bring ext midi device's audio back in I use a separate track with Record enabled and the option monitor only..Right click on the rec arm button to set.

btw the default on REacontrolMidi should be 1 not all so as any new users wouldnt be affected by this behavior.

Glad to hear on 1 and hope this helps 2^^

Guido
Hmm... OK. I thought midi has way more bandwidth than 16 channels worth x 1CC.

In any case do you have any ideas what other things could be the cause of such sluggishness? Could it be related to my midi interface? Or Reaper?

I am not using reainsert either and there is some latency... Could this have anything to do with my midi problems?
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Old 04-04-2012, 04:57 PM   #8
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Hardware MIDI connections can be *very* slow. The speed of MIDI traffic was originally standardized at 31250 baud (as if that term even rings a bell anymore... ). Which is why a lot of modern MIDI gear uses USB ports to connect to your computer.
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Old 04-04-2012, 05:21 PM   #9
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Hmm... OK. I thought midi has way more bandwidth than 16 channels worth x 1CC.

In any case do you have any ideas what other things could be the cause of such sluggishness? Could it be related to my midi interface? Or Reaper?

I am not using reainsert either and there is some latency... Could this have anything to do with my midi problems?
Hi,
In Reaper MIDI latency is "tied" to your Audio buffer size. If u post some system specs..audio card ...driver type..midi interface and chain, i may be able to help more. But simply: reduce the size of the audio buffer to as low as u can go wo artifacts to decrease midi latency.

Guido

edit..about midi handling the 16 channels of cc..it can.. u were sending ALL at EXACTLY the same time..not a real world scenario imho^^

Last edited by Guido; 04-04-2012 at 06:06 PM.
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Old 04-04-2012, 06:04 PM   #10
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Hardware MIDI connections can be *very* slow. The speed of MIDI traffic was originally standardized at 31250 baud (as if that term even rings a bell anymore... ). Which is why a lot of modern MIDI gear uses USB ports to connect to your computer.
Hi Banned,

Yes it CAN be slow especially compared to today's computer interfaces and protocols..at least on paper..but in this case there is no way its the midi spec that is causing his probs.^^

btw did u see my post about osc asking for your help?^^ Sry
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Old 04-09-2012, 03:43 AM   #11
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(as if that term even rings a bell anymore...
Cakewalk and Cubase 2.8 anyone?
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Old 04-09-2012, 05:52 AM   #12
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(sorry for the bit of OT gents)

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Hi Banned,

[...]
btw did u see my post about osc asking for your help?^^ Sry
Yes, but didn't get around to reading up on the links you posted before answering. Feel free to bump again if you didn't get it solved, as I'm not familiar with the device you mentioned, but can definitely relate to the type of problem. With OSC support I'm quite optimistic about the possible solutions.
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Old 04-09-2012, 06:03 AM   #13
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Cakewalk and Cubase 2.8 anyone?
Remember the dots in the squares to indicate track content in a measure?

⌼⌼⌼⎕⌼⌼⌼⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕
⌼⌼⌼⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕
⎕⎕⎕⎕⌼⌼⌼⌼⌼⌼⌼⌼⌼⌼⌼⌼⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕
⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⌼⌼⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕
⌼⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⌼⌼⌼⌼⌼⌼⌼⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕⎕


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Old 04-14-2012, 05:28 AM   #14
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Hardware MIDI connections can be *very* slow. The speed of MIDI traffic was originally standardized at 31250 baud (as if that term even rings a bell anymore... ). Which is why a lot of modern MIDI gear uses USB ports to connect to your computer.
I don't have problem with the latency. The problem is that the filter sounds sluggish as if it was somehow out of sync. Similar effect to 16 channels worth of midi being sent but not as pronounced.
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Old 04-14-2012, 07:49 AM   #15
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I don't have problem with the latency. The problem is that the filter sounds sluggish as if it was somehow out of sync. Similar effect to 16 channels worth of midi being sent but not as pronounced.
If there is a minimum time interval between messages, you can expect things to be out of sync/phase. In that case, it *is* a latency issue.

Solution: faster MIDI. Check out KissBox (buy Dutch! ), for example.
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Old 04-15-2012, 02:27 AM   #16
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(my apologies for the brief OT)


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Remember the dots in the squares to indicate track content in a measure?
I started music with THIS
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Old 04-15-2012, 03:45 AM   #17
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back in the day I automatically spaced out control messages on parallel tracks using a little macro.
So I was never trying to send CC121 to all 16 tracks at the exact same tick. Probably not essential but I never got MIDI stack overflows or logjams, either.
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Old 04-15-2012, 03:58 AM   #18
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If there is a minimum time interval between messages, you can expect things to be out of sync/phase. In that case, it *is* a latency issue.

Solution: faster MIDI. Check out KissBox (buy Dutch! ), for example.
I do not mean that the midi is out of phase with the track. I mean it sounds sluggish just by itself. By sluggish I don't mean it's late, the filter just sometimes sounds a bit well, sluggish.
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:35 AM   #19
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I do not mean that the midi is out of phase with the track. I mean it sounds sluggish just by itself. By sluggish I don't mean it's late, the filter just sometimes sounds a bit well, sluggish.
That's also what I meant.

For example, if you're playing two notes 'simultaneously' on MIDI channel 1 and 2, they are actually transmitted sequentially, and the time between those can result in out of sync sounds (with free running oscillators you typically wouldn't hear a difference, but with fixed oscillator start phases, you could).

Another possible explanation: perhaps there's some (poorly optimized) smoothing function getting in your way somewhere along the path?
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:41 AM   #20
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I started music with THIS
LOL, I remember those! Never had one though... but it's never too late for jealousy, is it? I could probably still use one that fits my 15.4'' MBP quite well.
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Old 04-16-2012, 05:57 AM   #21
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That's also what I meant.

For example, if you're playing two notes 'simultaneously' on MIDI channel 1 and 2, they are actually transmitted sequentially, and the time between those can result in out of sync sounds (with free running oscillators you typically wouldn't hear a difference, but with fixed oscillator start phases, you could).

Another possible explanation: perhaps there's some (poorly optimized) smoothing function getting in your way somewhere along the path?
New update on the issue:

There seems to be something more serious wrong with the setup than just latency. I looped a shortish midi part of around 1-2 bars. As the loop played back it started to have worse and worse "out of sync" effect and after a few passes it was clear that there are 2 same notes playing. After few passes the notes were completely separated from each other.

I seriously have no idea what's going on here. It can't be feedback because my midi input is disabled. Why it kicks in really bad in a loop... again no idea.

I also only use 1 midi channel. And the effect is there even if only one part is playing anyway.

Hmm. One thing I didn't try is to disable the midi hardware output. Maybe I am sending the midi twice with reaMidiControl as insert and midi hardware output enabled.
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Old 04-16-2012, 08:44 AM   #22
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New update on the issue:

There seems to be something more serious wrong with the setup than just latency. I looped a shortish midi part of around 1-2 bars. As the loop played back it started to have worse and worse "out of sync" effect and after a few passes it was clear that there are 2 same notes playing. After few passes the notes were completely separated from each other.

I seriously have no idea what's going on here. It can't be feedback because my midi input is disabled. Why it kicks in really bad in a loop... again no idea.

I also only use 1 midi channel. And the effect is there even if only one part is playing anyway.

Hmm. One thing I didn't try is to disable the midi hardware output. Maybe I am sending the midi twice with reaMidiControl as insert and midi hardware output enabled.
Hi,
Yes u have something "abmormal " in yr setup.Are u rinning any virtual midi cables?Have y in the ppast? This has nothing to do with a normal midi setup with Reaper. This is in ur system I believe.

And a lil rant..a properly configured midi SYSTEM with good midi interfaces and setup best practices doesnt need any MIDI massaging. I am living proof.
Start with the fudamentals and trouble shoot from there. Maybe a fresh install of REaper and one device and nicolas's user guide.

Guido

Edit
This has nothing to do with Reacontrol. It gets worse in a loop. because u are stacking error over error again and agin in the loop. no offence.^^ Note: the only thing with Reaper and looping issue was Subz post about looping wile syncing an external midi device via midi clock.

EDit 2 Could u plz post some add info? PC/Mac....vers of Reaper....XP/7....midi interface...midi device.. any other software in the midi chain..audio interface type and buffer settings....and finaly could u post the problem Reaper project? and maybe ur Reaper.ini and midihw.ini. That should do it!^^

Last edited by Guido; 04-16-2012 at 09:19 AM.
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Old 04-19-2012, 02:15 PM   #23
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Hardware MIDI connections can be *very* slow. The speed of MIDI traffic was originally standardized at 31250 baud (as if that term even rings a bell anymore... ). Which is why a lot of modern MIDI gear uses USB ports to connect to your computer.
Found this interesting piece of info on Wiki: "A standard for MIDI over USB was developed in 1999 ... Since USB is over 15,000 times faster than MIDI (480,000 kbit/s vs 31.25 kbit/s,) USB has the potential to be much faster. However, due to the nature of USB there is more latency and jitter introduced that is usually in the range of 2 to 10 ms, or about 2 to 10 MIDI commands. Some comparisons done in the early part of the 2000s showed USB to be slightly slower with higher latency, and this is still the case today. Despite the latency and jitter disadvantages, MIDI over USB is increasingly common on musical instruments."

So, it seems the "faster" is not always faster after all.
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Old 04-19-2012, 02:38 PM   #24
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Found this interesting piece of info on Wiki: "A standard for MIDI over USB was developed in 1999 ... Since USB is over 15,000 times faster than MIDI (480,000 kbit/s vs 31.25 kbit/s,) USB has the potential to be much faster. However, due to the nature of USB there is more latency and jitter introduced that is usually in the range of 2 to 10 ms, or about 2 to 10 MIDI commands. Some comparisons done in the early part of the 2000s showed USB to be slightly slower with higher latency, and this is still the case today. Despite the latency and jitter disadvantages, MIDI over USB is increasingly common on musical instruments."

So, it seems the "faster" is not always faster after all.
Indeed. Failing to take account of latency (including jitter) and only looking at total bandwidth can lead to completely misguided analyses. Another funny example was the old US definition of broadband (in telecommunications). Without taking account of latency, it applied to old fashioned snail mail as well, with its enormous bandwidth (but also at a pretty big latency).
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