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Old 08-09-2018, 01:52 PM   #41
azslow3
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Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
How can I see the single events ? Reaper always shows me note-on and note off in the same line, so there seem, to be as many off as on events for a single key. Do I need to use some other Midi recording software to find out ?

I get such a dual event even when lifting the key just above the "pressure point, that can be felt in the key's pushing force.

Moreover I see key off velocity.

And of course the NI Grandeur reproduces the VPC 1 action very nicely.

edit:
here are the raw event taken from the project file:
Code:
        E 58 92 3c 46
        E 410 92 3e 45
        E 37 92 40 4c
        E 144 82 3e 35
        E 1036 92 3e 2e
        E 115 92 3e 04
        E 428 82 3e 42
        E 0 82 3e 42
        E 166 82 3c 64
-> In the little test I did, indeed a note-on for the 3e key that already is on, and the dual note-on action is later acknowledged by two note-off events with timing difference zero.

So seemingly there is a tandard demanding what a midi instrument is supposed to do when it gets a second not-on for an already running note.
According to the naive working of a polyphonic electronic (or software) instrument, I would suppose that a second independent sound with the same pitch is supposed to be triggered - just like if a different note would be started. But maybe this is not completely true. Anyway, Grandeur and Scarbie EP 88 can cope with this just fine: the sound does not stop (or runs a release sample) before the new (same) sound starts.

-Michael (rather puzzled)
Nice found! I wish they describe such MIDI behavior in the documentation (do they? I can not find...), especially since it seems like it is common (at least for Kawai and Roland, can someone check Yamaha?).

I think the interpretation for the sound generator should be: if the note overlap, that is "re-trigger without off". So it should not call usual Release sound, but should stop it (may be with special interpretation) and start Attack for the same note. I mean without polyphony. An acoustic instrument behave like that.

I have seen advertisement that modern DPs react on release velocity. So that information is also there (in release event).

PS. it is long time there are some "MIDI tricks". F.e. Yamaha encodes monophonic sounds in MIDI special way: release of previous note and the next note can have the same time stamp, but if release is transmitted before the next note, that is normal legato. If it is transmitted after the next note, that triggers portamento.

EDIT: older Kawai do not send Note OFF and so no release velocity, Note On Velocity 0 is used as release.

Last edited by azslow3; 08-09-2018 at 01:59 PM.
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Old 08-09-2018, 01:55 PM   #42
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I mean, why should it call a release sound when there was no note off? There's really no difference there. You have a note on and then again a note on on the same key - obviously that should be that same note played twice, and process releases when note offs are eventually received.
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Old 08-09-2018, 04:01 PM   #43
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If by "such shitty kb" mean your Keystation, well that's a given because it doesn't have the third sensor.
Well, shit But it does register notes twice in repaer. Not all, but every now and then. And it is really hard to pin point them because they are very short.
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:22 PM   #44
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I mean, why should it call a release sound when there was no note off? There's really no difference there. You have a note on and then again a note on on the same key - obviously that should be that same note played twice, and process releases when note offs are eventually received.
Right. Not triggering a release sound (Both the Grandeur an the 88 do use dedicated release samples), is the most obvious points to be considered when handling the repeated-note-on feature.
But there is more to it:
- if you start the same sound again, it should not get louder by the second note-on (or should it -> hitting a string multiple times ? )
- if you start the same sound again, it needs to be in phase with the already running, otherwise it might completely cancel out.
- the dual note-off should not do a louder release-sound than a single one.

-Michael
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Old 08-09-2018, 10:25 PM   #45
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older Kawai do not send Note OFF and so no release velocity, Note On Velocity 0 is used as release.
Yamaha (e.g. DX7) does this, as well. I don't know the reason, but AFAIK the meaning of note-on velocity 0 is defined to be "note-off with a velocity equal to the last note-on of that note".

-Michael
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Old 08-09-2018, 11:13 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
Yamaha (e.g. DX7) does this, as well. I don't know the reason, but AFAIK the meaning of note-on velocity 0 is defined to be "note-off with a velocity equal to the last note-on of that note".
Actually I believe that the MIDI spec says that Note On with zero velocity is the same as Note Off with a velocity of 64.

BTW, the reason for sending Note On with zero velocity is to reduce the number of bytes being sent (because of limited MIDI speed/bandwith in the 1980s). This technique is called "running status", because the MIDI controller only has the send a single status byte for multiple sets of data bytes.
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Old 08-10-2018, 03:43 AM   #47
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Well, shit But it does register notes twice in repaer. Not all, but every now and then. And it is really hard to pin point them because they are very short.
That means even the two sensors it has are shit. They are not supposed to be misfiring triggers. And no, the DAW you use has absolutely nothing to do with the sensors in your MIDI controller.

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Originally Posted by mschnell View Post
- if you start the same sound again, it should not get louder by the second note-on (or should it -> hitting a string multiple times ? )
- if you start the same sound again, it needs to be in phase with the already running, otherwise it might completely cancel out.
No! When you hit the string on the piano while it's still vibrating, you can hit it at any point in its vibrational phase! So the second sound you trigger does NOT (and in 99% of cases IS NOT) in phase! This is almost impossible to do with samples, but really easy to make it behave exactly as on a real piano with modelling software like Pianoteq.

Truth is, when you repeat a single key many times, some notes will be slightly reinforced, some will be slightly cancelled out. It all depends at which phase you "catch" the string.
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Old 08-10-2018, 06:30 AM   #48
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This is almost impossible to do with samples, but really easy to make it behave exactly as on a real piano with modelling software like Pianoteq.
I see.

Do you suggest that the software (Kontakt and/or Pianoteq) indeed does detect re-triggering a running not and tries to handle that the best possible way ?

-Michael
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Old 08-10-2018, 07:57 AM   #49
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Pianoteq works just fine with notes retriggered in the way that triple sensor boards are generating them, and takes into account the current phase in which the struck string(s) is (are).

Regarding Kontakt, I suppose it's a matter of how a particular piano library was scripted. But that phase thing is not exactly possible to detect in Kontakt.

Last edited by EvilDragon; 08-10-2018 at 08:06 AM.
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Old 08-10-2018, 11:36 AM   #50
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That means even the two sensors it has are shit. They are not supposed to be misfiring triggers. And no, the DAW you use has absolutely nothing to do with the sensors in your MIDI controller.
Then cubase must have some sort of prevention system, because it doesn't happen there.
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Old 08-10-2018, 11:39 AM   #51
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Yeah it's likely filtering out overlapping MIDI events. Reaper has an option for that, too, BTW (MIDI editor->Options->Automatically correct overlapping notes).
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Old 08-10-2018, 11:44 AM   #52
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Yeah it's likely filtering out overlapping MIDI events. Reaper has an option for that, too, BTW (MIDI editor->Options->Automatically correct overlapping notes).
I use that in reaper, and I will end up with super short notes before normal note, so short that I can't see unless I move "normal" note away. And as a matter of fact hearing them is difficult cause they are so short, but they do produce slight distortion to the sound or make it more muffled.
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Old 08-10-2018, 11:54 AM   #53
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Yeah it's likely filtering out overlapping MIDI events. Reaper has an option for that, too, BTW (MIDI editor->Options->Automatically correct overlapping notes).



If that's the case, wouldn't it imply that plugins in Cubase can't work with the 3-sensor note retriggering behavior you described, as the plugin would not receive the complete MIDI stream?
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Old 08-10-2018, 12:04 PM   #54
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Unless Cubase has an option for disabling that, I suppose that's true.
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