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Old 04-04-2023, 09:43 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by ashcat_lt View Post
It's not weird. Unless your tracks use 6db pan law, panning to center actually makes them louder than pressing the mono button does. That is, it changes the balance in the mix in a way the mono button doesn't.
Magicbuss -- when you have a mono track solo'd and hard panned and you sweep it slowly across the entire stereo field, what effect does it have? Does it seem to get louder in the middle or stay the same (or get quieter, though that would imply miswired monitors or something)?

You said (or implied) that if you manually pan them to the center they sound correct... this is interesting in that implies that something about your listening setup is maybe a little unusual, since most people would report that it would be louder (with a 0dB pan law).

As ashcat said, it's not weird that the "mono" button and manually panning to center sound different... but it is a little weird to me that manually panning to center sounds better/correct to you, since one would expect that the center panned tracks would now be 6dB too quiet compared to the hard panned tracks that were brought to the center.
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Old 04-05-2023, 04:31 AM   #162
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Ok, my brain hurts every time I think about Pan Laws... so someone please tell me this...

What is the Reaper equivalent of the default pan laws of Cubase and Pro Tools?
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Old 04-05-2023, 08:28 AM   #163
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Old 04-05-2023, 01:28 PM   #164
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Ok, my brain hurts every time I think about Pan Laws...
Most people just plain overthink it. Seems like a lot of folks think like the pan position of each source is somehow “encoded” into the stereo mix, but it’s really not. All your final mix “knows” about the pan position of any source is the relative level of that source in each of the two stereo channels. You’ll have a*x on one side and b*x on the other, and the only thing that really matters as far as perceived position - all that panning ever really changes - is the ratio of a/b.

Gonna restate that: Once the mix is rendered, all that anybody will ever care about (in regards to pan position) is that ratio a/b. It is 100% true, demonstrable, indisputable fact that you can accomplish any ratio you choose (from 0/1 through 1/1 to 1/0) with any pan mode and any pan law.

Different pan modes might mean you need to adjust two knobs instead of one.

Different pan modes or curves might mean the actual knobs need to be in different places to get the same ratio.

Different pan laws can mean that the sum a+b can be different. For any pan law (other than -6 linear), that sum will be different for different positions of the knobs. In fact, the only real difference in pan laws is how much that sum changes as you move the knobs.

But that “difference” in the sums has nothing to do with the perceived position of the source itself. It amounts to static gain (or attenuation) to both channels, exactly the same as moving the volume fader. It would be like c*(a + b) = ca + cb, but the ratio is ca/cb = a/b = exactly the same position, just maybe a little louder or quieter overall. You can get the same ratio AND sum with any pan mode or law or curve just by turning the knobs and adjusting the volume fader.

And once you do that, as I’ve said a couple times already, nobody can ever know or care how you got there. Once it’s mixed and rendered and all you have is a stereo file, sum that down to mono absolutely will - must - be the same no matter which mode/law you used.

But yes, to get to that same result you may need to turn different knobs and/or by different amounts. Which way is most convenient/intuitive for you? Which one helps you - mixing what you mix the way you like to work - find the right ratio and sum easiest and fastest? That’s gonna be the right law/mode for you.

For me it’s pretty much always just default. I adjust the pan position to where I want it, I adjust the volume if necessary, I check in mono. Most of the time if I automate a pan from a side into the middle it’s for a solo or something, so I probably want it to get a bit louder anyway, but if I have to also automate volume, that’s cool too.


PS - The only good reason you'd really need to know what pan law some other DAW uses is if you really are trying to recreate a mix from that other DAW by duplicating every setting exactly, and I'm afraid you're going to have significantly bigger problems than pan law in that pursuit. I suppose if you were super used to the pan behavior of that older DAW, it might make sense to change it to match, but you'd have to be pretty oversensitive to tell, and if you can't actually tell, it's not even worth it.

Last edited by ashcat_lt; 04-05-2023 at 01:44 PM.
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Old 04-06-2023, 01:15 AM   #165
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Old 04-06-2023, 10:06 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by clepsydrae View Post
Magicbuss -- when you have a mono track solo'd and hard panned and you sweep it slowly across the entire stereo field, what effect does it have? Does it seem to get louder in the middle or stay the same (or get quieter, though that would imply miswired monitors or something)?

You said (or implied) that if you manually pan them to the center they sound correct... this is interesting in that implies that something about your listening setup is maybe a little unusual, since most people would report that it would be louder (with a 0dB pan law).

As ashcat said, it's not weird that the "mono" button and manually panning to center sound different... but it is a little weird to me that manually panning to center sounds better/correct to you, since one would expect that the center panned tracks would now be 6dB too quiet compared to the hard panned tracks that were brought to the center.
Yes, by correct I meant that at 0db Pan law the sound is louder when in the center than hard panned. I have changed the pan law to -3db to compensate. However The mono button on the master fader is still useless to me because the balances change no matter what pan law I have. What is the point of checking your mix in mono if the balance is way off??? The balance sounds the same to me in the hallway outside my mix room and thats mono so...wth?
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Old 04-06-2023, 10:28 AM   #167
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Call me unenlightened, but I fail to see the importance of different pan laws. Basically, as with anything audio, you should use your ears and mix till it sounds good. If it sounds good - it is good (given proper equipment), regardless of applied pan law. Or am I wrong here?
It really is as matter of fact simple as that!

These folks are trying to recreate a mix in a different DAW for a work in progress. Which, frankly, sounds like a truly awful place to be in! What a mountain of just painful work with little to show for it.

I can't tell anyone what to do but I'd sure look for a way out of that. Finish the damn mix in whatever the current DAW from hell is and move on! Or just start the thing over from the top - if there was some stumbling point in the previous system that prompted this.
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Old 04-06-2023, 10:31 AM   #168
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Originally Posted by Magicbuss View Post
Yes, by correct I meant that at 0db Pan law the sound is louder when in the center than hard panned. I have changed the pan law to -3db to compensate. However The mono button on the master fader is still useless to me because the balances change no matter what pan law I have. What is the point of checking your mix in mono if the balance is way off??? The balance sounds the same to me in the hallway outside my mix room and thats mono so...wth?
And I switch to 0 pan law because at -3 dB you lose level as you go up through folders
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Old 04-06-2023, 11:10 AM   #169
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And I switch to 0 pan law because at -3 dB you lose level as you go up through folders
Hmmm... Can you explain this? My mixes make extensive use of folders as busses.
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Old 04-06-2023, 11:13 AM   #170
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Default Some useful information that was posted by someone else...

I put this in my Reaper sws global notes (notes were from another user that did some good research)... just so I have it:


=============================

For a stereo track in Reaper to act the same as a mono track in Cubase/Pro Tools with a default 3db pan law (or equal power), it needs to be set to -

1. -3.00db
2. Pan mode - Stereo balance / mono pan

As mentioned before - the project pan law setting is not implemented on stereo tracks in Cubase or Pro Tools. Cubase uses a 'Stereo Balance Panner' or 'Stereo Combined Panner', not the pan law, while Pro Tools uses a 'Dual Mono Panner (same as the Cubase Stereo Combined Panner) for the left/right signals and not the pan law.

This is why Reaper having a pan law on it's only track type (stereo) has never worked properly as pan laws are meant for mono tracks with mono signals going into stereo busses.

For a stereo track/buss in Reaper to act like a Stereo Balance Panner for a stereo track/buss in Cubase it needs to be set to -

1. 0.00db
2. 'linear scale above 3db' ticked
3. Pan mode - stereo balance

For a stereo track/buss in Reaper to act like a Stereo Combined Panner for a stereo track/buss in Cubase it needs to be set to -

1. -3.00db
2. 'linear scale above 3db' ticked
3. Pan mode - dual pan

For a stereo track/buss in Reaper to act like the Dual Mono Panner on stereo tracks/busses in Pro Tools it needs to be set to -

1. -3.00db
2. 'linear scale above 3db' ticked
3. Pan mode - dual pan

If all tracks that are supposed to act like mono track in Cubase/Pro Tool are set in the above configuration, and all tracks that are supposed to act like stereo tracks in Cubase/Pro Tools are also set in the above configurations, the panning/gain staging should translate correctly between DAWs. There also isn't a need to use the 'Gain compensation (boost pans)' setting either as a panned 'mono' Reaper track will always be routed into a 'stereo' Reaper buss which will therefore compensate for this. This setting 'kind of' helped fix the issue of confusing stereo tracks with mono tracks and the subsequent gain loss when bussing them to eachother. So essentially I'm going to create track templates for 'mono tracks' and the two types of 'stereo tracks' and build my stereo mix sessions this way to ensure mix compatibility with Cubase/Pro Tools from now on... 5.1 will be the next one to figure out...

On another note - the default 0db pan setting that Reaper is set to 'out of the box' has something seriously wrong with it too, and I'm not sure what's even going on there...
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Last edited by Thonex; 04-06-2023 at 11:20 AM.
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Old 04-06-2023, 12:04 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Magicbuss View Post
Hmmm... Can you explain this? My mixes make extensive use of folders as busses.
If you have a sine wave on a child track that has pan law of -3 DB and it's at minus 18 dbfs it will show up at something like minus 15 dbfs on the parent folder. If you do the same thing with zero DB pan law it will be the same level it was before.
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Old 04-06-2023, 01:16 PM   #172
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What is the point of checking your mix in mono if the balance is way off???
It really is up to you to decide how much you care what happens when the mix collapses to mono. A lot of people who make good money at this never check mono compatibility. Some go the opposite direction and do pretty much all of their mixing in mono, leaving the panning and stereo placement until toward the end. I kind of fall in that camp - mix in mono til all the elements fit, pan things out and adjust volumes if necessary, check again in mono… (not that I make any money at it)
Quote:
The balance sounds the same to me in the hallway outside my mix room and thats mono so...wth?
Of course there’s still going to be timing differences as well as a greater contribution from the diffuse field when you walk away like that, so it’s not exactly the same thing. It might however tell you more about what you actually want to know.

If I’m honest, I think you’ve got a couple issues happening here and I think a big contributing factor in all of them is some significant issues at your mix position. Less than ideal acoustic situations can cause all kinds of weirdness with your perception of stereo placement. I would imagine that if you take those mixes to other systems in other spaces, you’re going to find that the mix isn’t actually as well balanced as you think it is to begin with.

I mean, I don’t know you or your circumstances. I’m certainly not trying to insult or question you. Just trying to help. The issues you bring up just can’t really be Reaper’s fault, though, and don’t really have much to do with pan law.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachz View Post
…pan law of -3 DB and it's at minus 18 dbfs it will show up at something like minus 15 dbfs on the parent folder…
Ahem…. -18 + -3 = -21

Last edited by ashcat_lt; 04-06-2023 at 01:23 PM.
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Old 04-06-2023, 01:21 PM   #173
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If you have a sine wave on a child track that has pan law of -3 DB and it's at minus 18 dbfs it will show up at something like minus 15 dbfs on the parent folder. If you do the same thing with zero DB pan law it will be the same level it was before.
If you enable "gain compensation (boost pans)", it won't do that and you'll still get the benefit of the pan law aka level not changing when panning between either side and center. There's a couple other handy reasons I use that setting for similar reasons but forget what they are.
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Old 04-06-2023, 01:23 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Magicbuss View Post
Yes, by correct I meant that at 0db Pan law the sound is louder when in the center than hard panned. I have changed the pan law to -3db to compensate. However The mono button on the master fader is still useless to me because the balances change no matter what pan law I have. What is the point of checking your mix in mono if the balance is way off??? The balance sounds the same to me in the hallway outside my mix room and thats mono so...wth?
So as you probably know the mono button functioning as expected or not won't have anything to do with the pan law, assuming you have a mix dialed in the way you like it (as ashcat said, the mix doesn't "know" anything about the pan law, the pan law is just a convenience to automatically manage levels as you pan things around.)

It's possible that some kind of psychoacoustic effect is explaining the track balance discrepancies between the stereo and mono mix -- the subjective perception of loudness isn't totally straightforward (i.e. not simply "how loud it is"), so maybe you are particularly sensitive to those effects (and maybe they are triggered more by your own mixes than commercial mixes). Or perhaps there is some phase cancellation between L/R that happens cleanly when you use the "mono" button but doesn't happen as cleanly when you listen from the hallway, etc.

If you can post a sample of a mix that demonstrates the issue we can check it out, try to reproduce, etc.

Have you checked your mix for antiphase content? (e.g. goniometer JS, Ozone Imager, etc)
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Old 04-06-2023, 05:36 PM   #175
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Ahem…. -18 + -3 = -21
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Old 04-06-2023, 05:37 PM   #176
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If you enable "gain compensation (boost pans)", it won't do that and you'll still get the benefit of the pan law aka level not changing when panning between either side and center. There's a couple other handy reasons I use that setting for similar reasons but forget what they are.
I remember reading something negative about gain compensation so I decided not to go that way but I can't remember what it was. Isn't there some downside to it. I mean what are you trading off compared to the other way
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Old 04-06-2023, 08:59 PM   #177
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I remember reading something negative about gain compensation so I decided not to go that way but I can't remember what it was. Isn't there some downside to it. I mean what are you trading off compared to the other way
The default reduces the level of the center to compensate instead of boosting the pans. I kept running into scenarios where if I decided to change things around mid mix, I had to make more adjustments to get back where I was when it was at default, like your folder issue. Less so when using boosted pans for the pan law.

This way the center level never changes but I'm sure there is YMMV there.
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Old 01-24-2024, 01:17 PM   #178
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It's 2024
May i ask if the weird increase in volume @50% pan with 0dB Pan Law will be solved one day?
All other pan laws works fine (or so i believe) but 0dB has this boost that some times make us fiddle a bit too much with faders when dealing with pan.
Sorry if this has been already discussed
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Old 01-24-2024, 01:42 PM   #179
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To prevent a signal boost when partially panned and using a pan law between -3 dB and +0 dB, choose "linear taper" or "hybrid taper" from the pan law dialog.

Here is the output of a panned sweep for sine, linear, and hybrid taper with a pan law somewhere around -1.5 dB, because that is a useful level for this visualization. With +0 dB pan law, the linear and hybrid tapers are identical.


Last edited by schwa; 01-25-2024 at 04:16 AM.
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Old 01-25-2024, 12:40 AM   #180
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Ah, Thank you Schwa! That's an important information for many people.
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