Old 03-07-2010, 06:27 PM   #121
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Maybe this threat could be split out into it's own with an appropriate title instead of being buried in this Alisha Keys thread.
Excellent idea.


Jim P.




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Old 03-07-2010, 06:45 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by PAPT View Post
Maybe this threat could be split out into it's own with an appropriate title instead of being buried in this Alisha Keys thread.
ya, sorry for hijacking the thread.

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right but it's just a perception, obviously. You have absolutely no "facts" one way or the other, just as anyone else here.
i'm not sure what you mean by this. but i never meant to come off as saying that sampled pianos are better than modeled pianos, or hybrids. just that i preferred them so far.
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Old 03-08-2010, 10:34 PM   #123
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I wouldn't mind playng with aleisha's keys. Dammit! CVpiano intrigued so i downloaded it only to find it wont allow me to install it because it says i need 'XP service pack 2' or higher. I have XP SP3 instaled! Anyone know why this is?
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Old 03-09-2010, 01:49 AM   #124
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I wouldn't mind playng with aleisha's keys. Dammit! CVpiano intrigued so i downloaded it only to find it wont allow me to install it because it says i need 'XP service pack 2' or higher. I have XP SP3 instaled! Anyone know why this is?
Hi setvice,

These are instructions that I found on some website a while back, they worked for me, but I uninstalled CVpiano because it kept on crashing as far as I remember:

1. Download and install the Microsoft Application Compatibility Toolkit 5.0 (from the Microsoft website) (needs .NET Framework 2.0, afaik)
2. Start->Programs->Microsoft Application Compatibility Toolkit 5.0->Compatibility Administrator
3. Click the "Fix" button at the top (if it is greyed out you may need to make a new custom database first and select it.
4. A create new application fix wizard will appear.
5. Wizard - Program Information screen: Name of application and name of vendor don't matter too much, put anything there. For program file location, browse to the GVI setup program on the CD-ROM. Click Next.
6. Wizard - Compatibility Modes screen: By default "Microsoft Windows 95" will be selected. Change this to "None" and click "Next"
7. Wizard - Compatibility Fixes screen: Scroll down and check the check-box next to "WinXPSP2VersionLie". Click the "Test Run" button (DO NOT CLICK NEXT).
8. Test run window: Ensure the path to the program is correct (should be something like e:\setup.exe). Command line can be blank. Click the OK button.
9. The GVI installer will now launch and proceed quite happily thinking it is running in XP SP2.
10. After the install is done You can close the "Create New Application Fix" wizard and the Compatibility Administrator tool without saving changes.

Hope this works...
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Old 03-09-2010, 03:15 AM   #125
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Hi setvice,

These are instructions that I found on some website a while back, they worked for me, but I uninstalled CVpiano because it kept on crashing as far as I remember:

1. Download and install the Microsoft Application Compatibility Toolkit 5.0 (from the Microsoft website) (needs .NET Framework 2.0, afaik)
2. Start->Programs->Microsoft Application Compatibility Toolkit 5.0->Compatibility Administrator
3. Click the "Fix" button at the top (if it is greyed out you may need to make a new custom database first and select it.
4. A create new application fix wizard will appear.
5. Wizard - Program Information screen: Name of application and name of vendor don't matter too much, put anything there. For program file location, browse to the GVI setup program on the CD-ROM. Click Next.
6. Wizard - Compatibility Modes screen: By default "Microsoft Windows 95" will be selected. Change this to "None" and click "Next"
7. Wizard - Compatibility Fixes screen: Scroll down and check the check-box next to "WinXPSP2VersionLie". Click the "Test Run" button (DO NOT CLICK NEXT).
8. Test run window: Ensure the path to the program is correct (should be something like e:\setup.exe). Command line can be blank. Click the OK button.
9. The GVI installer will now launch and proceed quite happily thinking it is running in XP SP2.
10. After the install is done You can close the "Create New Application Fix" wizard and the Compatibility Administrator tool without saving changes.

Hope this works...
tried these step with no luck on windows 7, it ran once or twice when 1st installed but continues to crash so I've uninstalled it
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Old 03-09-2010, 07:12 AM   #126
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By far a real piano is the hardest instrument to record IMO. No matter how good of a virtual piano you have it will never come close to the real thing, so having said that Pianotq is great Quantum Leap is great, NI akoustic piano is fine too, if you are doing a piano rock coomposition or anything that has piano track in the mix, now if you were doing just a piano classical piece like Beethoven's Elise good luck using any of those VSTI's. With today's power of plugins and midi editing you can make any vsti sound great, i can gurantee you that if you take any of those piano instruments and make them sound exactly the same. Now keep in mind that east west products are aimed more towards scoring and film work so their sounds are pretty much ready to go without any major tweaking, even if I had the money to buy the EWQL products I would not, I am a tweakhead so its just not for me, so the debates over how one or another piano sounds or for that matter any vsti's out there always puzzles me, now there is absolute grabage out there that has sounds taken from a yamaha psr series keyboards but for most products you can edit and make anything sound very, very close to the real thing..
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Old 03-09-2010, 07:49 AM   #127
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i don't like pianoteq -= but i love truepianos, which is another modeled piano. Nothing comes close to it, actually. Ivory, Akoustic Piano, thegrand, whatever.
Jason,

I have (and really like) TruePianos too, but I generally double it with a bit of an Akoustik Piano to get it sounding fuller. Do you have any tips to get TruePianos sounding a bit fuller on its own?

G
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Old 03-09-2010, 08:45 AM   #128
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Default ni lol

yea this is just wat i expect from ni, theyve made multi millions from providing over hyped average sounding virtual instruments.

ive been telling people for a long time now ni is just a hyped up brand name, ive always haited how there samplers (kontack / battery) came with huge gigabite libarys covering every genre, HOW CHEEZY! and wat a waste of memory! i brought battery 3 and i deleated the sounds it came with and chose to use my own samples (id of been better off with sampletank at least the sound libary that it comes with it decent).

native instruments are nothing more then cheeze merchants and FINALY people are seeing this!

ni products are average software products (never above average) ussaly with a huge array of cheezy sounds aimed at your average wanna be rnb or hip hop producer (not haitin on those genres im a hip hop producer myself) who has very little musical knollige and usally uses fl studio (maybe cubase at a push) and wants everything in 1 vsti. To this kind of person hearing that ALICIA KEYS PIANO HAS BEEN SAMPLED for a vst would instantly make them want to buy it because they already have the dr dre sample pack and lil john battery3 kit and they belive having the same sounds as the artists there small minds consider to be icons will improve there lame production skills.

im just glad to be honest that ni are makking it more clear that there products are aimed at young american teens who watch mtv and have a cracked version of fl studio!

so now serious producers a lot of who use ni products kuz they had a bit of buzz in the vsti world (from reviews from music magazine who give good reviews to who ever slips them a few thousand on the sly) not realisin ni = trash, will be able to see (and maybe hear) more clearly now that ni is not for them,

ni make products for the drones of part time wanna be producer noobs out there (99% of music software customers.

sorry if i offened anyone but its the cold hard truth.
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Old 03-09-2010, 08:53 AM   #129
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Actually Kontakt is an excellent sampler, and the best 3rd party libraries are made exactly for Kontakt. And pretty much a lot of professionals are using it, you know.

I also very much love Reaktor 5 because it's endless.
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Old 03-09-2010, 09:02 AM   #130
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Jason,

I have (and really like) TruePianos too, but I generally double it with a bit of an Akoustik Piano to get it sounding fuller. Do you have any tips to get TruePianos sounding a bit fuller on its own?

G
i never had a need, honestly
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Old 03-09-2010, 09:11 AM   #131
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yea this is just wat i expect from ni, theyve made multi millions from providing over hyped average sounding virtual instruments.

ive been telling people for a long time now ni is just a hyped up brand name, ive always haited how there samplers (kontack / battery) came with huge gigabite libarys covering every genre, HOW CHEEZY! and wat a waste of memory! i brought battery 3 and i deleated the sounds it came with and chose to use my own samples (id of been better off with sampletank at least the sound libary that it comes with it decent).

native instruments are nothing more then cheeze merchants and FINALY people are seeing this!

ni products are average software products (never above average) ussaly with a huge array of cheezy sounds aimed at your average wanna be rnb or hip hop producer (not haitin on those genres im a hip hop producer myself) who has very little musical knollige and usally uses fl studio (maybe cubase at a push) and wants everything in 1 vsti. To this kind of person hearing that ALICIA KEYS PIANO HAS BEEN SAMPLED for a vst would instantly make them want to buy it because they already have the dr dre sample pack and lil john battery3 kit and they belive having the same sounds as the artists there small minds consider to be icons will improve there lame production skills.

im just glad to be honest that ni are makking it more clear that there products are aimed at young american teens who watch mtv and have a cracked version of fl studio!

so now serious producers a lot of who use ni products kuz they had a bit of buzz in the vsti world (from reviews from music magazine who give good reviews to who ever slips them a few thousand on the sly) not realisin ni = trash, will be able to see (and maybe hear) more clearly now that ni is not for them,

ni make products for the drones of part time wanna be producer noobs out there (99% of music software customers.

sorry if i offened anyone but its the cold hard truth.
I see your point, but the fact alicia keys' name is on the box doesn't make the VST any worse than it makes it better. and turning it down just because her name is on the box, is the exact same lame mistake as liking it because she is on the box. the point is though, it is a VST of a Yamaha C3 with interesting specs on it including 12 velocity layers.

it might be good and it might not.

If i was rich, and famous for music, and had my own piano thati loved, but i wanted a VST of it, i might make some deal with some manufacturer to put my piano in a box with my name on it and sell it to other people. because that way, i'd have my piano i love as a VST.

sure, some people put their name on anything because they get paid for it, and it's just a marketing trick. and yes, this might be one of those. but just because someone's name is on something it doesn't mean it sucks. sure buying tiger woods nike golf clubs won't make you a better golfer. but still, if you're a good golfer, those clubs might actually be really good, and fit your style really well.


you can tweak alot of the samples in battery 3, within battery 3 itself. i remember when i was younger i used to care alot about finding the right sample that i wanted. and then i discovered that was a waste of time building a huge library, and searching through it. it's much easier to build your sounds yourself, and now i know there's better equipment for it. you can layer snare's EQ them compress them, all sorts of stuff within battery.

i don't find it is cheezy, like you said the samples don't make the artist. you can do alot with the battery 3 kits i find, more than i can even imagine too i'm sure. plus the multi mic kit is cool too. very versatile and shapeable. i just wish they had more of those.

i do find NI really sucked it up with their akoustik pianos, not in the sound or sampling, but in the reliability/compatibility department. but FM8, and guitar rig and all that i find are quite awesome.
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Old 03-09-2010, 12:06 PM   #132
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OK fellow pianofiles, time for another blind test, a quick improv I did this morning. Is this real, sampled, or modeled?
http://soundcloud.com/john-stoneham/alone
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Old 03-09-2010, 12:26 PM   #133
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Modeled I think, good sounds and expression, if you cant tell which one! who cares it sounds good I am not hearing any pedal squeeks so 80% sure its not real.. Like I said unless you are playing a real Bosendorfer and even then iron out all the noises that are made by the piano it has to have some kind of imperfection...
Think of a real piano as a huge trap for all kinds of sounds to be amplified by natural ambiance.
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Old 03-09-2010, 12:29 PM   #134
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Sampled. The envelope of the sound sounds a bit weird, specifically the decay phase :/
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Old 03-09-2010, 12:35 PM   #135
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I am listening on my pc speakers at work so kinda guessing 50/50
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Old 03-09-2010, 12:59 PM   #136
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A lot of sampled libraries don't do pedal squeaks, as well. Pianoteq does (although those can be removed at will). But I hear no real sympathetic resonance here, hence my guess.
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Old 03-09-2010, 01:54 PM   #137
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I guess modeled, but I can't explain why. It's something about the shape of the harmonics surrounding the notes. (I don't claim to have an opinion about the relative merits of either kind of virtual piano.)
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Old 03-09-2010, 03:14 PM   #138
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It's sampled, the NI Akoustik Concert D with the settings I like. The decay thing EvilDragon noticed may have something to do with the size of piano you're used to hearing or playing -- if you're used to small pianos, a long decay doesn't sound "right", and vise versa. It may also just be my settings, since I actually added a touch of compression to lengthen the decay, because that's what I'm used to hearing when I play a big piano like a real 9' Steinway, which has an awfully long decay.

Anyway, I think this is fun. Somebody else should post a blind test...
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Old 03-09-2010, 03:33 PM   #139
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I'm gonna guess sampled based on lack of sympathetic resonance.

I brought my keyboard player over, long time classical pianist and son of a piano tuner, he listened for about 3 seconds and said "SAMPLED." He said he thought it sounded like some of the notes were being temporally stretched to get different pitches from the same sample.

EDIT: Damn too late. I assure you I started typing this post before I saw the answer, though.
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Old 03-09-2010, 03:37 PM   #140
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EDIT: Damn too late. I assure you I started typing this post before I saw the answer, though.
And I assure you I would have gotten the correct answer if I had guessed "sampled" instead of "modeled"!
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Old 03-09-2010, 04:58 PM   #141
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I'm gonna guess sampled based on lack of sympathetic resonance.

I brought my keyboard player over, long time classical pianist and son of a piano tuner, he listened for about 3 seconds and said "SAMPLED." He said he thought it sounded like some of the notes were being temporally stretched to get different pitches from the same sample.

EDIT: Damn too late. I assure you I started typing this post before I saw the answer, though.
ya, akoustik piano does that. i think they only sampled tones apart, so only have the notes are sampled, other half are stretched. blissfully, i can't really tell. the plus side of that, is the library is smaller and it's less resource hungry. but i'd rather they have sampled every key to be honest.

i think i would have guessed sampled also, because it didn't sound modeled to me, and because of the difficulties of making a good real piano recording. so i woulda just played the odds on that one. it would be cool to hear the same piece played by the same person on a real piano, it's sampled equivalent, and a modeled piano, or computer generated one tweaked or designed to sound like that model of piano. on the other hand it might not be so cool because right now it's not obvious to me a sampled piano is sampled, although if i heard a comparison like this, that might instantly change, which would kind of suck.
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Old 03-09-2010, 05:15 PM   #142
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although if i heard a comparison like this, that might instantly change, which would kind of suck.
Meaning, you'd be fooled into thinking something's a sampled piano, when it's not? Gosh, that must REALLY suck :P
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Old 03-09-2010, 06:02 PM   #143
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Meaning, you'd be fooled into thinking something's a sampled piano, when it's not? Gosh, that must REALLY suck :P
ya it would, because then i wouldn't be as into my music as otherwise because i'd feel like the instrument i was playing was fake and it would affect my performance. while i'm completely fooled my performance doesn't suffer.

right now i'm totally fooled, so even though that might be due to a lack of my own perception, or knowledge, it's something i like. mmmmm sweet bliss of ignorance.

but actually wait, no, what i meant is that i would not be fooled into thinking a sampled piano was real. that's what would suck. thinking something's a sampled piano when it's not, wouldn't bother me right now, because i find sampled pianos sound pretty damn good. not the same as being in the same room as a piano but pretty good. kind of off topic, but i wonder what it would be like to take a sampled piano and run it through a convolution reverb, for which the impulse responses were taken as though the piano were the speakers and my head the mic. that might be really cool, maybe my brain expects the sound to be a certain way given the room i'm in, and maybe in that case i might notice the sympathetic resonance lacking.

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Old 03-10-2010, 07:21 AM   #144
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it would be cool to hear the same piece played by the same person on a real piano, it's sampled equivalent, and a modeled piano
I re-rendered the other "blind test" I uploaded, the Pianoteq one with some sustained instruments, using the sampled Akoustik Concert D (which is now packaged as the "New York Concert Grand"). Here's the original modeled piano:
http://soundcloud.com/john-stoneham/first-date
And here's the sampled one:
http://soundcloud.com/john-stoneham/date

To be honest, I didn't tweak the Pianoteq version at all, just used a preset, and for Akoustik I used my own default settings that I've come to like. So maybe it's not a completely fair comparison.

And since I just can't help myself, one more blind test
http://soundcloud.com/john-stoneham/05-summer-rain
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Old 03-10-2010, 09:50 AM   #145
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Doesn't the fact that nobody can seem to guess these right 100% of the time prove the point that the technology for both sampled and modeled pianos has progressed to the point that both are very good substitutes for the real thing for recording purposes, and even more so if they are in a mix with other instruments?

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Old 03-10-2010, 02:22 PM   #146
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Doesn't the fact that nobody can seem to guess these right 100% of the time prove the point that the technology for both sampled and modeled pianos has progressed to the point that both are very good substitutes for the real thing for recording purposes, and even more so if they are in a mix with other instruments?
Exactly my point in the previous post...
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Old 03-10-2010, 05:57 PM   #147
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Doesn't the fact that nobody can seem to guess these right 100% of the time prove the point that the technology for both sampled and modeled pianos has progressed to the point that both are very good substitutes for the real thing for recording purposes, and even more so if they are in a mix with other instruments?
I think there is a much larger difference when you're playing the VST yourself.

there's even a difference of one sampled piano from another in the quality of the VST and also in the piano itself. for me, anyways. being able to tell in context of a song, matters less maybe, particularly that in a full mix you might not be able to tell, in a full mix you might EQ a piano in such a way that playing one solo that way wouldn't sound good to you, and even monitored that way might sound odd to the pianist, but in the mix it works.

but when you're playing the instrument you want it to sound good. i mean the tone and stuff on a guitar or a real piano or real drums is very strictly designed to arrive at a beautiful tone and timbre, and then a producer is going to go and change it.. blasphemous almost. but really playing an instrument and making a mix is a different thing. a piano might sound good in a mix but not as good to play.

everybody has different needs from their tools and different perceptions, so in teh end different stuff is better for different people. but that doesn't mean they are the same and completely interchangeable.
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Old 03-10-2010, 06:32 PM   #148
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Doesn't the fact that nobody can seem to guess these right 100% of the time prove the point that the technology for both sampled and modeled pianos has progressed to the point that both are very good substitutes for the real thing for recording purposes, and even more so if they are in a mix with other instruments?
I totally believe this. These sorts of tech discussions are interesting for their own sake, and valid for what they are, but have almost nothing to do with the art and craft of making music per se.
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Old 12-16-2010, 07:58 AM   #149
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Default Alicia Keys Piano

Just brought NI Alicia's Keys - not particularly blown away yet. Still need to mess with the settings. The sound of the sample is ok - but there's a few delay issues I need to work out!!

I got it really cheap though so I won't be too upset if I end up not using it much. Maybe better for recording than live.
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Old 12-16-2010, 09:27 AM   #150
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Just brought NI Alicia's Keys - not particularly blown away yet. Still need to mess with the settings. The sound of the sample is ok - but there's a few delay issues I need to work out!!

I got it really cheap though so I won't be too upset if I end up not using it much. Maybe better for recording than live.
yeah i bought it and never use it.

It's faaaar too resource hungry for my macbook pro. Make sure you download the updates for it as they help with the latency.

Kind regards

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Old 12-16-2010, 10:07 AM   #151
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I've really yet to hear anything that has the dynamics of a real grand. I've played real pianos for years so I know how a real piano sounds and responds. I mean when you thump a piano it should sound like you are thumping a piano, not like it has a massive amount of limiting on it as it runs out of it's own head room (if you know what I mean). None of the sampled pianos out there (to my ears) have anywhere near the dynamics needed to emulate a real piano. And I'm not just talking about volume here I'm talking about the huge harmonic content of a piano when it is really played in earnest.
I'm not a piano player (learning a little here and there), but even my green ears agree 100%. Ain't nothing like the real thing, especially if I'm listening rather than playing, ha ha.

I also agree with the guys who don't like modeled piano....YUCK! Pianoteq sounds so lifeless to me.
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Old 12-16-2010, 01:42 PM   #152
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You all fell in all that marKEYting hype

Akoustik pianos are really nice though, I use them a lot as accompaniment sounds but I don't get too fancy with the settings.
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Old 12-16-2010, 04:46 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by PAPT View Post
Maybe this threat could be split out into it's own with an appropriate title instead of being buried in this Alisha Keys thread.
I happen to thoroughly enjoy the NI Alicia's Keys piano. I think it's a great product. The band I tracked used it instead of the one they brought, and they thought it was nothing short of amazing.
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Old 12-17-2010, 04:22 AM   #154
fab
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after a few months of rehearsing with alicia's keys at home and with my jazz quartet, it's my favorite.

before, it was artvista virtual grand 2, but AK has excellent dynamics. the string resonances are wonderful, loading is lightning fast (i have an SSD, but still). CPU is not a problem on my three years old CoreDuo 1.8 GHz.

(i use variverb pro and have switched off the internal convolution reverb. variverb in HiQ mode takes as much CPU as the piano.)

it has all the imperfections of a real piano, which at first was a bit surprising if you are used to "perfect" samples but it it's no problem at all when actually playing.

it's sounds very different from the steinway B that artvista has sampled but the important thing: it feels just right! with my kawai mp9500 it's perfect perfect, with my doepfer lmk2+ very good and even still ok with a synth action.

i don't know how scarbee does this but he is a master sample-man.
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Old 12-19-2010, 08:41 PM   #155
jdriver
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bharris View Post
No one is using Imperfect Samples (www.imperfectsamples.com)?
Yes, I am using the Braunschweig Upright and to my ears it is freakishly intimate. It comes with several variations, (human fingers,no release, etc.) as well as 2 perspectives and several choices of layer numbers. The FX program has some really cool knocks, pedal sounds, and direct string glissandos.

Their Fazoli Grand is off in a universe of it's own, with perfect and imperfect versions, so many layers you buy it preinstalled on a harddrive.

Their most recent is the Brasted Broken, which I had hoped would sound like Tom Waits's upright, but instead I found it so wildly out of tune as to be a distraction.
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