Old 04-16-2014, 11:41 PM   #1
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Default Online render as default

Change from Offline render to "online render" as default; especially newbies wonīt think Reaper is not a professional daw !

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...88#post1342588
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Old 04-17-2014, 08:12 AM   #2
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I prefer offline render as default. Most plugins don't have problems with it ...
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Old 04-17-2014, 08:25 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
I prefer offline render as default. Most plugins don't have problems with it ...
Same here. I don't want to sit there for seven minutes waiting for a seven-minute song to render. I've never had a problem using full speed offline render.
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Old 04-17-2014, 08:26 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Dstruct View Post
I prefer offline render as default. Most plugins don't have problems with it ...
+1 for me too!
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Old 04-17-2014, 11:20 AM   #5
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Just no. The reasoning in linked thread is based on a single
instance of plug-ins that handle offline rendering poorly, by a
user with obviously little plug-in experience. Also the word
'professional' is far from being a valid argument.

e
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Old 04-17-2014, 02:32 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by EricM View Post
Just no. The reasoning in linked thread is based on a single
instance of plug-ins that handle offline rendering poorly, by a
user with obviously little plug-in experience. Also the word
'professional' is far from being a valid argument.

e
To match "Professional" demand is the most significant argument !

If I playback a mix and I am satisfied then I simply want the daw to save
the mix(no crackles/each Rendering must bring the same result !) EXACTLY matching the playback to a file (WAV 16 bit).
I do not care if you use UAD plugins, WAVES plugins or free plugins - a professional daw should treat all plugins the same way !

Those who are pleased with dilettantish results will love it the way it is and those having no problems with rendering, and anyway, you do not have to be a professional in order to aspire professional results °! But I have read some threads now and also found other threads in Google - I am not the only one being faced with this problem !

Mister Slovenia (Slovenia is a very beautiful country - what makes you believe I have little experience with plugins ? R u s(h)ure ? U r almost rite: I have little experience with Reaper !
I was used to have RTAS plugins and never had serious problems ! RTAS is past now as you probably know and I have heard it through the grapevine that AVID has lost some customers...?///

Was there something in your soup today or why do some have Problems with the word "professional" ?

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Old 04-17-2014, 02:42 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by tls11823 View Post
Same here. I don't want to sit there for seven minutes waiting for a seven-minute song to render. I've never had a problem using full speed offline render.
You have the right to say whatever you want, but your reply sounds very very strange to me.
You do not want to spend 7 minutes for rendering a mix that you have probably listened to 30 times or more - after a lot of tweaking, adjusting and amending ????

I see, within every 30 minutes you maybe produce a new mix, okay, now I see
7 minutes is way too long for hard-working and productive "composers"
But if you never had a problem you are not affected.

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Old 04-17-2014, 02:57 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Giano View Post
If I playback a mix and I am satisfied then I simply want the daw to save the mix(no crackles/each Rendering must bring the same result !) EXACTLY matching the playback to a file (WAV 16 bit).
But you see, I've never had a problem with that. The rendered output has always exactly matched what I heard while mixing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giano View Post
Those who are pleased with dilettantish results will love it the way it is, and anyway, you do not have to be a professional in order to aspire professional results °!
It's quite possible to get "professional" results without rendering slowly, as long as you use well-behaved plug-ins that product consistent results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Giano View Post
You have the right to say whatever you want, but your reply sounds very very strange to me.
You do not want to spend 7 minutes for rendering a mix that you have probably listened to 30 times or more - after a lot of tweaking, adjusting and amending ????

I see, within every 30 minutes you maybe produce a new mix, okay, now I see
7 minutes is way too long for hard-working and productive "composers"
Sigh! I may render several times so I can listen in environments other than my monitors. It's possible that I could render several times in an hour towards the end of the project, adjusting as I go if things don't sound right in those other environments. So yes - seven minutes is a long time when you go through it multiple times.

If I had to worry about unstable plug-ins producing different results every time, then I'd be more inclined to sit and wait. If I don't have to waste my time, then there's no reason I should.
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Old 04-17-2014, 03:00 PM   #9
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Professional demand has nothing to do with Reaper when plugins misbehave. Professional behavior has everything to do with knowing how to get around the problem in the proper way.

Online render is typically a workaround for otherwise unsolvable issues, not a default feature IMHO.
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Old 04-17-2014, 03:27 PM   #10
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Some of you do probably not understand why I want Online Render as Default Setting.

I do not need it as default any more (online render seems to work well for me), but newbies could be shocked by their first experience with Reaper.
Imagine someone who knows Protools downloads the Trial Version of REAPER and then he manages to make his first mix in Reaper and then he renders his first mix offline (Default Setting now !) - then he renders it once again after some adjustments and he suddenly perceives and notices that the 2nd rendered mix is different from the first and maybe some crackles all of a sudden. He will not like Reaper, believe me ! And I do NOT refer to only one fx instance in one mix, I experimented a lot and let me tell you that also with Reaperīs JS plugins rendering problems occur !
Fortunately you get a lot of answers in this great Forum !
And I do understand that you say the plugins are the problem and not Reaper - but my answer is: I do not care ! I want the daw to save my mix the way it sounds when I playback it ! And maybe itīs not possible with all plugins today. So this is maybe a new task for (daw-)developers to make it possible tomorrow ! And it seems that it is possible with online Rendering (I will see in my next mixes), thatīs why I recommend to have "online render" as Default Setting.

Itīs just a recommendation from my side for those who want Reaper to get more happy customers !

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Old 04-17-2014, 03:38 PM   #11
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I think you fail to understand what offline rendering does. It only renders as fast as possible and the audio interface is not involved. No cracks or pops because there is no latency. Reaper isn't trying to play it back in real time so it can actually go less then 1.0x if need be.

In fact, you are more likely to get pops and cracks in online mode because reaper has to try to play it at a certain rate.... if your cpu is overloaded reaper can't do this because it is suppose to be realtime but can't. I don't know how reaper handles this though.

AFAIK, online = 1x(speed at which playback would occur), offline = variable.

Variable is better, more efficient, and just because some plugins are designed poorly does not make it reapers problem.
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Old 04-17-2014, 03:41 PM   #12
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I think you fail to understand what offline rendering does. It only renders as fast as possible and the audio interface is not involved. No cracks or pops because there is no latency. Reaper isn't trying to play it back in real time so it can actually go less then 1.0x if need be.

In fact, you are more likely to get pops and cracks in online mode because reaper has to try to play it at a certain rate.... if your cpu is overloaded reaper can't do this because it is suppose to be realtime but can't. I don't know how reaper handles this though.

AFAIK, online = 1x(speed at which playback would occur), offline = variable.

Variable is better, more efficient, and just because some plugins are designed poorly does not make it reapers problem.
Sorry, but I have to contradict. My experience is that when I render online, I could do it 10 times and I always get the same result (I am not talking about "save live Output...(bounce)!!)and no crackles, when I do offline render it is a mess ! And was it you who talked about 100 tracks and fx playing at the same time? - I am just wondering what kind of Music or composition this might be where 100 notes of 100 different tracks and maybe different instruments are hit or played at the same time - a really huge orchestra ?
REAPER should be able to treat the plugins you call poorly designed like every other plugins - thatīs a task for the next update !
So please do not blame the plugins for a rendering problem of a daw ! Then you also call some Reaper JS plugins "poorly designed"!
There is a proverb: "Temper the wind to the shorn lamb"!
If Steve Jobs could say this, his staff would make it happen, he often had strange ideas or visions that became reality !

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Old 04-18-2014, 02:45 AM   #13
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Whatīs the sense in puffing the features and workflow of a daw up, but the most important thing does not work properly ?! ////
You record and save music in a daw, donīt you ?
The most important thing is to have a file that contains the mix matching the same quality of the mix that you playback and hear in your daw - a MP3 file or WAV file.////
I playback a mix and listen to it in my daw once, twice, thrice and it sounds good every time I playback it, so I want my rendered wav file to sound exactly equal to the playbacked mix - and I do not blame a poorly designed plugin when the rendered file does not sound equally - itīs the daw that renders the file, not the plugin!///
And saying that Cubase has the same issue wonīt solve the problem !
If you only compared similar weaknesses of daws and forgot to improve your daw, then there would be no need for more updates any more.
And a daw should, of course, suit professional demands - always learn from the best !///
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Old 04-18-2014, 11:49 AM   #14
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Sorry, but I have to contradict. My experience is that when I render online, I could do it 10 times and I always get the same result (I am not talking about "save live Output...(bounce)!!)and no crackles, when I do offline render it is a mess ! And was it you who talked about 100 tracks and fx playing at the same time? - I am just wondering what kind of Music or composition this might be where 100 notes of 100 different tracks and maybe different instruments are hit or played at the same time - a really huge orchestra ?
REAPER should be able to treat the plugins you call poorly designed like every other plugins - thatīs a task for the next update !
So please do not blame the plugins for a rendering problem of a daw ! Then you also call some Reaper JS plugins "poorly designed"!
There is a proverb: "Temper the wind to the shorn lamb"!
If Steve Jobs could say this, his staff would make it happen, he often had strange ideas or visions that became reality !
You really don't have a clue how daws work, that is the problem nor plugins. A plugin should not change it's behavior depending on fast time goes by EXCEPT when external real time processing units are used which are designed only for real time(a shortcoming of the device and interfacing methods, not the daw).

I am not saying reaper is perfect nor has bugs. I have found many(mainly with midi) and have also experienced issues that can't be explained if reaper's algorithms were perfect. But computers are highly complex as is the software and all the n! ways difference pieces of software and code interact.

But a "plugin" at its most basic form is just a function that takes a buffer and processes it. The buffer has no absolute time relationship, only what the daw or the plugins artificially put on it. (depends on sample rate too)

But a perfectly designed daw and plugin should have no problem rendering at any speed within the capabilities of the device they are run on.

DAW: Heres a buffer of x length.
Plugin: Ok, I'll process it and return it to you with the modifications.
DAW: Thanks.

It's that simple. Note that there is no reference to time. The plugin could take 10 years or 10 picoseconds to process the buffer. (the only constraint is real time which requires that it process it "fast enough", and that the only time you should get pops and clicks... which is strange that you have exactly the opposite issue)

So, EITHER the DAW is flawed and does not give the right buffer or right way to calculate the time for each sample in the buffer OR the plugin is at fault.

There are really no other possibilities except in rare circumstances which we are not talking about here because you are not accepting those as possibilities.

You blame the DAW, *we* blame the plugins. Who's right?

Maybe both. I don't necessarily disagree with you BUT most people have no problems AND reaper works fine with MANY MANY other plugins. HENCE, it's something on your end almost surely.

You won't except that because you use pro-tools as your basis and use that as how you define what is good or not. You say pro-tools uses real time rendering... reaper doesn't(by default), hence reaper sucks.

Solution? GO BACK TO PRO-TOOLS!

Very simple. If you like pro-tools so much and have no problems with it why are you using reaper? If it sucks for you, you have the option to change.

If, say, someone is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to use reaper. Just do a judo chop to there collar bone and take the gun away and shoot them... then GO BACK TO PRO-TOOLS!

If you actually like reaper over pro-tools THEN stop bitching and do some work to figure out why your system sucks! 95% of us have no major issues like you are having with reaper. Either your work-flow is bringing out the worst in reaper OR you have issues with your setup. I know your ego makes it hard for you to accept you might have a problem BUT if you just rant about how bad reaper is for you and we have to change the world that works for everyone else so it will work for you, then your just an arrogant bastard.

The real question is, do you want to solve the problem or not? If you do, then stop ASSUMING reaper is the problem and the plugins are not. Else there's no point in going any further... you have your answer.
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Old 04-18-2014, 01:32 PM   #15
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Hmm, try to create new project, open Render window, set your options and save project as default template and choose it in Preferences window.
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Old 04-18-2014, 01:43 PM   #16
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What shall I say, some still do not understand why I want online render to be as default. I ve already written why, I will not repeat.
AVID made decisions I did not like and I had to purchase a new PC and if you want Pro Tools to run properly you have to buy a very very good PC, thatīs where Reaper beats PT ! Also ReaComp and ReaEQ and some more plugins are way better
than most of the plugins you get with PT.
I never said PT is better than Reaper.
Some people have problems with rendering, others donīt.
As far as I am concerned I do not have problems with rendering any more, because online render works fine for me.
Maybe, Rendering should be explained more detailed and clearly in the Manual, otherwise newbies could be very disappointed when not knowing why their rendered file does not sound equal to the playback in the daw.
Rendering is maybe one of the most important things - rendering is the final step to the result of all your mixing and recording efforts.
I am not complaining, I am recommending and no one is obliged to agree...///

And AbstractDissonance if everybody reacted the way you react in this forum, a lot of newbies would be scared away immediately.
Learn to read and try to understand and if you donīt, you have the right to ask questions and do not bring up the big guns too quickly,
you are not the only one who digs Reaper and I am not the only one who has some problems with a daw - itīs just a normal thing.
I contradict again, things are not settled to 100%, neither a daw, nor plugins, you just have the knowledge of today, but tomorrow
things can change, everything can change or can be improved, sometimes in a way we are not even able to dream of now ////
And I repeat again: I do not have any problems with rendering any more. Pls read and try to understand ///

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Old 04-18-2014, 01:52 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Giano View Post
Change from Offline render to "online render" as default; especially newbies wonīt think Reaper is not a professional daw !

http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.p...88#post1342588
terrible idea.

Get back in yer box you
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Old 04-18-2014, 02:10 PM   #18
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Yes, you want to make online rendering default, which is absurd. It can take up to 10 to 100x longer to render something, it is changing it for 95% of users WHO don't have problem, just because you had a problem and you think most or all new users will also have a problem.

Step outside your self for a moment and consider just the facts:

1. Online render is slower almost always.
2. Almost no one has a problem with offline render.
3. Changing the default from offline to online will affect everyone, at least initially.
4. Sometimes online render causes problems.

2 (and 4) is enough to render your argument useless.

Basically your argument goes like this:

Cause some people can't drive cars without wrecking we should not allow anyone to drive cars. Your fallacies are http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_projection_fallacy and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasty_generalization.
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Old 04-18-2014, 02:13 PM   #19
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What shall I say, some still do not understand why I want online render to be as default.
Did you read my post above?
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Old 04-18-2014, 02:21 PM   #20
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Did you read my post above?
Could you please elaborate a bit more on the topic.

I'm new to this topic.
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Old 04-18-2014, 02:33 PM   #21
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Your fallacies are .....
Had to look it up in a dictionary. Thought of some sexual practice.
BTW: For me as a layman: What happens when the cpu slows down due to energy saving. Does this influence the clock and buffersize?

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Old 04-18-2014, 02:52 PM   #22
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From what I understand reading the other thread the main complaint (apart from crackling with a certain plugin) is that you don't get consistent results with some of your plugins, you mentioned a flanger plugin. Most flanger FX are driven by a free running lfo and therefore will give you (slightly) different results each time you play it back, depending on which amplitude the lfo happens to be on playback start. That's just the nature of the beast. Online rendering can't possibly change that at all.

Same when you use a VSTi with round robin, like most drum instruments and lots of sample based instrument emulations. Each play back will cause these VSTi's to choose different samples. No matter whether you render off- or online or which DAW is used.

What I do not get is how comes that online render could cure your issue in the first place.
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Old 04-18-2014, 04:52 PM   #23
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Had to look it up in a dictionary. Thought of some sexual practice.
BTW: For me as a layman: What happens when the cpu slows down due to energy saving. Does this influence the clock and buffersize?
Usually when a computer attempts to reduce power consumption it does so by reducing the cpu clock(because the power consumption is proportional to the clock frequency). Now, the clock basically represents how many instructions the cpu can execute per second(more or less, it gets complicated with modern computers).

So, if you cut the clock by 1/2 to reduce the power consumption by 1/4, you've reduce the amount of processing you have available by 1/2.

This is more serious than it seems. Because now you have less headroom.

e.g., suppose the OS and all the crapware that is installed on a comp is taking about 50% of the cycles. This means if you were to cut the clock in half you would have no headroom for anything else and the computer would stall. For audio this means you would have no room to do any processes and it would result in pops and clicks or worse.

The buffer size generally is fixed. The problem is this with buffers:

The smaller the buffer the lower the latency but the more processing required because of stuff like task switching.

Suppose you have a buffer of size 100 and a buffer of size 1000. If you are to process this buffer per second(not good for audio but this is just an example),

Then, the processor(vst, plugin or whatever), has to process 10 of the 100 sized buffers but only one of the of the 1000 size buffer for the same result.

But this is how it works in a simplified form:

Process 1st 100 sized buffer.
Task Switch - Computer does other stuff
Buffer is sent to output audio device to be heard.
Task Switch - Computer does other stuff
Process 2nd 100 sized buffer
....
Task Switch - Computer does other stuff
Buffer is sent to output audio device to be heard.
Task Switch - Computer does other stuff
Process 10th 100 sized buffer
Task Switch - Computer does other stuff
Buffer is sent to output audio device to be heard.
Task Switch - Computer does other stuff


while for the 1000 sized buffer

Process 1000 sized buffer
Task Switch - Computer does other stuff
Buffer is sent to output audio device to be heard.
Task Switch - Computer does other stuff


Far less wasting time processing the extra tasks in the second case, the downside is that the buffer, being larger, takes longer to process and *IF* it takes too long you will hear pops and clicks.

Things that are not real time use larger buffers to reduce wasted cycles on stuff that happens in between processing the buffers.


Essentially: Larger buffers = more efficient but introduce latency. Smaller buffers = less efficient but lower latency.

At small point, that efficiency becomes an issue in real time stuff and causes problems.
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Old 04-19-2014, 05:53 AM   #24
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Yes, you want to make online rendering default, which is absurd. It can take up to 10 to 100x longer to render something, it is changing it for 95% of users WHO don't have problem, just because you had a problem and you think most or all new users will also have a problem.

Step outside your self for a moment and consider just the facts:

1. Online render is slower almost always.
2. Almost no one has a problem with offline render.
3. Changing the default from offline to online will affect everyone, at least initially.
4. Sometimes online render causes problems.

2 (and 4) is enough to render your argument useless.

Basically your argument goes like this:

Cause some people can't drive cars without wrecking we should not allow anyone to drive cars. Your fallacies are http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_projection_fallacy and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasty_generalization.
Reaper in offline mode can be a car for many a man (much more than only 5% !!! Wake up!), a car that is able to drive and move forward, BUT some wonīt reach the desired destination ! Bad Rendering behavior of Reaper is one of the well known weaknesses of Reaper, just read some other threads in other Forums ! But itīs not a weakness any more if you know what you can do and change in the settings.
What I write is pro Reaper, some of you want to make REaper look ridiculous, pls be aware of the fact that this forum is a Reaper Forum, so please show some respect ! Maybe you should join Avid Forum, I am sure you r welcome there !
We all have witnessed an evil and agressive part of your character, but I am willing to forgive you, you must learn and accept that people
can have problems with a certain matter and you might have no problem at all with the same matter - things can be different, people are different, you can learn to accept it !
And I repeat again: online render works great for me and itīs even a logical matter, that an Option that renders in realtime works more properly than an option that renders faster than realtime. And if majority says "donīt Change Default to online render!", then pls think about adding some more Information about rendering in the Manual. RENDERING IS IMPORTANT !

So, everyone that is able to drive a car and has a permition (driving license) should have the right to drive a car, but if I purchase a car after a test drive, I want to have exactly the car that I have tested, a car that is able to bring me from A to B !
When I listen to a mix in a DAW, I want my rendered file to sound 100% equally from beginning til end of mix - thatīs it !

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Old 04-19-2014, 07:02 AM   #25
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Bad Rendering behavior of Reaper is one of the well known weaknesses of Reaper
what???

I hope you're not one of those guys who thinks the quality of their music depends on good mastering...
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Old 04-14-2016, 06:47 AM   #26
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Hmm, try to create new project, open Render window, set your options and save project as default template and choose it in Preferences window.
Or edit the template value "RENDER_1X" to

Code:
RENDER_1X 2
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