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Old 03-11-2008, 01:31 PM   #1
sessionthree
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Default Audio dropouts during graphics events (FIXED)

With some VSTis, I get audio dropouts with some graphic events. For example, while playing the VSTi in realtime (with record arm on), I will get dropouts while:

1) moving windows around on the screen (slight, but it's there)
2) Minimizing or maximizing windows (any window - Reaper or other apps) - this causes extreme stuttering of the audio while the minimize and maximize animations are taking place.
3) Opening the Visualization window cause the VSTi to drop out a lot while the visualization is running

I can correct (1) by disabling "show window contents while dragging", and I can correct (2) by disabling "animate windows when maximizing and minimizing" in my system performance settings. However, I don't have to do this in other hosts and was just wondering if there is a setting in Reaper I'm missing.

I can't correct (3) at all while record arm is on.

Disabling record arm and just playing from a pre-recorded MIDI track seems to cause (1) and (3) to go away but not (2).

As I said, this doesn't occur with all VSTis.

Some VSTis it does happen with:
* Any Native Instruments VSTi
* z3ta+

Some VSTis it does not happen with:
* Imageline Sytrus
* ReaSynth
* ReaSamplOmatic
* Rhino
* Oatmeal
* Synth1

I should add that it does not happen with the DXi versions of NI plugins, so it seems to be a VSTi issue with certain plugins.

I'm running with a Q6600 o/ced to 3.2Ghz / 4GB DDR2 Ram / Emu 1820m. I have typically been using a ASIO buffer of 240 samples at 48k sample rate. However, increasing this all the way to 4800 samples doesn't make the problem go away. (Although it does help.)


Does Justin or anyone else have any clue what could be going on here?


FIXED (2.2)

Last edited by Dstruct; 04-07-2008 at 07:01 AM.
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Old 03-11-2008, 03:12 PM   #2
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I had this with Jamstix2 a couple of versions back, but it got cleared up.

what version of reaper are you running?

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Old 03-11-2008, 03:32 PM   #3
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2.108

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Old 03-25-2008, 07:50 PM   #4
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I'm bumping this in hopes that someone can help me. I've verified that this problem does not occur Sonar, FL Studio, Energy XT, and Live.
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Old 03-25-2008, 11:57 PM   #5
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Do you have "Do not allow the OS to relocate worker threads" enabled (advanced tweaks)? If so -> disable it ...
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Old 03-26-2008, 06:07 AM   #6
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Dandruff,

Thanks for the tip. I'm at work and tried your suggestion on my laptop, but it did not seem to help. (The problem occurs on my laptop as well, but it's not as serious.) I'll try on my desktop when I get home this evening. (Although, I think I've played with this setting already.)

Oh yeah, I didn't mention that. It occurs on both my desktop and laptop. My laptop is a ThinkPad T61 with a Core 2 Duo.

Thanks,
Clayton
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Old 03-26-2008, 06:29 AM   #7
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yeah, just make sure that it is disabled. once i've tried reaper with it enabled i got serious audio glitches and dropouts when scrolling or zooming with the mouse: http://www.cockos.com/forum/showpost...5&postcount=10



another thing:

at the rme forum a user wrote about similar problems. the solution was to disable the nvidia-service and the nvidia-autostart-programs (if you have a nvidia graphiccard) ...

Last edited by Dstruct; 03-26-2008 at 06:35 AM.
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Old 03-26-2008, 06:58 AM   #8
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Hmmm, I have Nvidia on both the desktop and laptop. I also tried 3 other video cards on the desktop in hopes of fixing the problem, but they were all Nvidia as well (didn't models, but used the same driver installation.)

So... this could be the answer. I'll have to give that a shot.

Thanks,
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Old 03-26-2008, 08:32 AM   #9
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Well disabling the Nvidia services didn't help on my laptop. Actually, completely uninstalling the Nvidia drivers didn't help either. I'll try it on my desktop later, but i seem to remember this problem occuring even before I installed the Nvidia drivers when I wiped/reinstalled my hard drive last week.
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Old 03-26-2008, 10:43 AM   #10
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I'm using an overclocked Q6600 machine too and I'm having EXACTLY the same issues. I also have it on a dual Xeon 3.4 machine at another studio and to be honest it drives me nuts. I can have 2 tracks and a VSTI open and i'll get clicks with the Menus etc on the Xeon machine, the q660 is a little better but not perfect. I only see this in reaper Cubendo is quiet as a mouse when doing these things.

I too would love to get to the bottom of this as its one of the main annoyances on a daily working basis.That and the poor zoom performance with large track counts :-)


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Old 03-26-2008, 10:53 AM   #11
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Norbury,

Out of curiosity, what motherboard are you using on the Q6600 machine?

-Clayton
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Old 03-26-2008, 10:54 AM   #12
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Confirmed on my Q6600.
Was doing some heavy work with NI K2 last night and everytime I moved the VSTi GUI window, or a ME window I would get drop outs.
Also, the movement of said windows was very sluggish... it felt as though I was trying to Dameware into Reaper.

I'll try to capture screenscasts of it later tonight. it was very frustrating last night.
REAPER v2.146 - March 25 2008
and i got 3 crashes to boot.


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Old 03-26-2008, 10:57 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandruff View Post
another thing:

at the rme forum a user wrote about similar problems. the solution was to disable the nvidia-service and the nvidia-autostart-programs (if you have a nvidia graphiccard) ...
thanks for the heads up on this... I'll see if that helps me any.
gotta link perchance?


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Old 03-26-2008, 10:57 AM   #14
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Tallisman,

That's exactly what I'm talking about. (Although, the windows aren't sluggish to me.)

-Clayton
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Old 03-26-2008, 11:01 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallisman View Post
gotta link perchance?
post #15 -> http://www.rme-audio.de/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2277



also this http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml tool might be helpful here ...

Last edited by Dstruct; 03-26-2008 at 11:03 AM.
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Old 03-26-2008, 11:19 AM   #16
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Ok My system specs are


Intel Q6600 2.4 quad core G0 stepping @ 3.00
Arctic pro freezer 7 cooler
4 gigs of Geil DDR2 6400 ram
Asus P5WDG2-WS Mobo
Gigabyte ATI 2600 pro 512 PCI express graphics
Seasonic s12 600 w PSU
160 gig IDE system drive
Couple of samsung spin point SATA2 16 meg buffer 500 gig drives
Powercore Mk11
UADx2
SSL Mixpander 9 with Ibox/ xlogic /alpha link 48 in 48 out
Seasonic S12 600w PSU
coolermaster cosmos case



So as you can see no nvidea or RME so thats a red herring.I've tried the settign both ways regarding operator threas from the OS and it's the same either way.

I've just loaded up a new project with ONE instance of Halion 3.x with the scarabee Rhodes samples, recorded a few bars, then on playback opened a few menus and its click City everytime. This is something that needs serious attention,it's one of those workflow things that gets very annoying after a while . as Ive said before it's not very pleasant for a singer with loud headphones on to have audio glitches like this, it's not very professional.

I'm sure there's a solution if we can get a comfirmation ;-)


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Old 03-26-2008, 11:23 AM   #17
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I will add that I've got my XP install down to only necessary services running, about 18 I think so I've NOTHING running that shouldn't be.Only happens in Reaper.

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Old 03-26-2008, 11:24 AM   #18
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Dandruff,

The DPC Latency reports pretty low readings on my desktop (all green, but i can't remember the exact values.)

This feels like a hardware issue except for the fact that it's only Reaper.

Here's a test on my system that is a perfect (and extreme) example that is believe is directly related:

* Play an NI VSTi through reaper in realtime. Start dxdiag and on the display tab, run the Direct3D tests (while playing the VSTi in realtime). On my system (and only with z3ta+ and NI VSTis) I get a LOT of dropouts.

* Now, play an NI VSTi through Sonar in realtime. Start dxdiag and run the Direct3D tests. On my system, it is rock solid (even at 2ms latency)... no dropouts.

This is why the visualization window in Reaper causes so much trouble.

I'm confused.

Oh, and I just recently built this system. I don't recall this problem on my old P4 3GHz system. So it could be hardware related, but still strange that it's only Reaper.
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Old 03-26-2008, 11:32 AM   #19
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This is a Reaper issue as its fine in Sonar and Cubendo.THere are so many settings to have a go at its sometimes difficult to know if there is a setting that will sort this out. I've not found anything that helps though so far.

It seems like the audio thread is getting interrupted by any sort of graphical activity, I did think though that justin had said Audio in Reaper has the highest priority.


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Old 03-26-2008, 11:38 AM   #20
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Ok just tried the same with XPhrase and thats bad too. Going on from my last post,obviously Audio HAS the highest thread,but, maybe VSTI's aren't being registered as AUDIO threads. I'm no programmer so I'm just thinking off the top of my head.



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Old 03-26-2008, 11:59 AM   #21
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I can confirm this as well. I had a problem project working with NI Battery 2 some while ago. Same symptoms. In my case I eventually found that reducing the bit depth and sample rate of the samples I was using to 16/44.1 made the VSTi and Reaper settle down.
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Old 03-26-2008, 12:00 PM   #22
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Back again,

It seems it's worse if any track is record enabled, doesn't matter which track,an empty one in the project will do.If I have a track record enabled the Glitching is horrible,with no tracks enabled its not bad, but not perfect.

I've only come back to reaper a few months ago after a while of Cubendoing and I don't remember it being as bad as this before.

MC
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Old 03-26-2008, 12:02 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inthepipeline View Post
I can confirm this as well. I had a problem project working with NI Battery 2 some while ago. Same symptoms. In my case I eventually found that reducing the bit depth and sample rate of the samples I was using to 16/44.1 made the VSTi and Reaper settle down.

Hmm well thats a poor work around though :-) And I'm getting it with non NI VSTI's so its not a NI issue(this time ;-))

Also the fact that other host don't exhibit the same issue on the same hardware narrows it down as a reaper issue.


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Old 03-26-2008, 12:05 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norbury brook View Post
It seems it's worse if any track is record enabled, doesn't matter which track,an empty one in the project will do.If I have a track record enabled the Glitching is horrible,with no tracks enabled its not bad, but not perfect.
Same here. Disabling record enable helps, but it's still there.
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Old 03-26-2008, 11:58 PM   #25
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Just a quick bump to make sure this gets noticed, Justin, can you shed any light on what might be happening here?


cheers


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Old 03-28-2008, 04:56 AM   #26
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Daily Bump, as this makes working with most VSTI's in a pro recording environment unacceptable.


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Old 03-28-2008, 04:04 PM   #27
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I think I give up. It seems there's nothing I can do to get rid of this problem.
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Old 03-29-2008, 01:43 AM   #28
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Sorry that you have these problems, I can't help either...

Before you guys give up, I want to get sure you tried setting your processor scheduling to background services. (I've seen this helping only once though)

http://knowledgebase.steinberg.net/91_1.html

Since there seem to be many Q6600 running fine elsewhere, try to find a common denominator in all your configurations.

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Old 03-29-2008, 10:01 AM   #29
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Steindork,

That's set on my comp (and doesn't help). Like I've said, this problem only occurs with Reaper. I've tried four other hosts that don't have this problem, so I'm done with thinking it's a hardware issue. It also happens on my both core 2 duo laptop and my Q6600 desktop.

I'm also not saying it's a Reaper issue. It may be an NI issue and the other hosts "correct" it somehow.

-C
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Old 03-29-2008, 12:23 PM   #30
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Just an idea ...

Your PC works Ok with energyXT/NI VSTis.

Can you try loading eXT VSTi as an FX in Reaper, then load the Native Instruments VSTi into eXT VSTi?
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Old 03-29-2008, 01:21 PM   #31
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Its not just a NI issue, if you see from my posts Its happening with one instance of Xphrase loaded,also one instance of atmosphere will do it too,there's something not right with the way VSTI's audio is being handled,especially when there's a record armed track.


Its easy to reproduce,

Open new project.

2. Add VSTI, in this case Steinbergs Xphrase

3.record a bit of music

4.play back said phrase and open a few menus( keeping the track record armed)you'll hear glitches.

5.turn record arm off, and the glitches 'almost'dissapear




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Old 03-29-2008, 02:42 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkStar View Post
Just an idea ...

Your PC works Ok with energyXT/NI VSTis.

Can you try loading eXT VSTi as an FX in Reaper, then load the Native Instruments VSTi into eXT VSTi?
DarkStar,

Good idea and interesting results. When I load up the NI VSTis through the eXT VSTi, the problems are NOT there! So, this must have something to do with how Reaper is loading/handling certain VSTis.

I'd love to see a fix for this when Justin gets time.
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Old 03-29-2008, 02:44 PM   #33
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Norbury,

I'm sure your problems are the same issue as mine, but your sound more serious than what I'm seeing.

Are your problems fixed when loading through the eXT VSTi? They are on my comp as I stated in the previous post.

-C
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Old 03-29-2008, 03:10 PM   #34
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I'll give it a try tomorrow if i can. Still needs fixing though :-)


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Old 03-29-2008, 06:31 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norbury brook View Post
Its not just a NI issue, if you see from my posts Its happening with one instance of Xphrase loaded,also one instance of atmosphere will do it too,there's something not right with the way VSTI's audio is being handled,especially when there's a record armed track.


Its easy to reproduce,

Open new project.

2. Add VSTI, in this case Steinbergs Xphrase

3.record a bit of music

4.play back said phrase and open a few menus( keeping the track record armed)you'll hear glitches.

5.turn record arm off, and the glitches 'almost'dissapear




MC
It doesn't glitch here with Steinberg VB1, though there's only one track.

Edit: Tried it again with Edirol Orchestral... can't duplicate the above... no glitches.

Last edited by Lawrence; 03-29-2008 at 07:06 PM.
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Old 03-30-2008, 03:25 PM   #36
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Ok


Just tried this on another machine

Core2 duo 2 gig
2 gig ram
VSL2020 sound card
Matrox g550 AGP

Asrock mobo


Same result

new project


tried one instance of massive,recorded a 4 note chord for 2 bars, looped it, lecft it in record armed then hovered the mouse over the top menu rows,every time a menu drops there's an audio drop out.


tested with OLGA and no dropouts,tested with Albino, no dropouts, tested with Steinberg the grand.......Drop outs again.


Ok to me this seems like an issue with 1. NI VSTI's and 2: any VSTI that uses disk streaming, which is ALL VSTI samplers.

VSTI's like atmosphere and Xphrase are romplers so there's some sample playing going on there which might explain the dropouts.


Justin can we get some confirmation that this is a reproducible issue
?

cheers

MC
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Old 03-30-2008, 05:58 PM   #37
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norbury,

I now see what you mean by the menu glitches. I thought you were having a bit more serious problems than me, but we're in the exact same boat.

Crossing my fingers for a fix.

-Clayton
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Old 03-31-2008, 03:42 AM   #38
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Yes, I can't believe that were the only two people experiencing this though, or that it can't be confirmed from others/Justin.

I'm in the middle of a series of commissioned meditation albums for a large publishing company at the moment and, as by the nature of meditation, I'm using a long pads,pianos etc along with an artist voice over.I need to keep an atmosphere for the voice over in a certain meditative 'space'. Having these glitches when opening menus is not helping workflow at all in this case especially.

THis is a severe example and an unusual one for,but even in more normal working situations audio glitching from GUI issues gives the program a less than professional feel.


to recap for a reproduction

open a new project

add track

add NI or any sampler VSTI with string/ piano or pad sound( basically any long sustained notes)

record a two bar chord

playback and open menus keeping the track record armed

result....glitches




cheers


MC




cheers


MC
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Old 03-31-2008, 03:48 PM   #39
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If it helps, here is a comparison of Norbury and My computers (since we seem to be the only ones seeing this problem). Notice that other than the processors, there's not a lot of similarity here. (My stuff is starred and italicized.)

I'm not saying this matters because Norbury and I are both seeing it on multiple computers with other configs as well. I just wanted to provide as much info related to this as possible.

Intel Q6600 2.4 quad core G0 stepping @ 3.00
*** Intel Q6600 2.4 quad core G0 stepping @ 3.20

Arctic pro freezer 7 cooler
*** Arctic pro freezer 7 cooler

4 gigs of Geil DDR2 6400 ram
*** 4 gigs (2 sticks of 2 gigs) of G.Skill DDR2 1066 ram (PC2 8500)

Asus P5WDG2-WS Mobo
*** Gigabyte GA-EP35-DS3P Mobo

Gigabyte ATI 2600 pro 512 PCI express graphics
*** Gigabyte Nvidia GeForce 8600GTS 256MB PCI Express graphics

Seasonic s12 600 w PSU
*** Rosewill RP600V2-S-SL 600W SLI Ready-ATX12V V2.01 PSU

160 gig IDE system drive
*** Seagate Barracuda ES.2 250GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive (system)

Couple of samsung spin point SATA2 16 meg buffer 500 gig drives
*** Seagate Barracuda ES.2 250GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive (user/recording)
*** Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 500GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive (samples)
*** Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 750GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive (backup)

Powercore Mk11
*** N/A

UADx2
*** N/A

SSL Mixpander 9 with Ibox/ xlogic /alpha link 48 in 48 out
*** Emu 1820m PCI Audio

coolermaster cosmos case
*** Sunbeam Silent Storm IC-SS-SVBK Case

*** SAMSUNG 20X DVD▒R DVD Burner Model SH-S203N
*** Windows XP Pro SP2
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Old 03-31-2008, 04:21 PM   #40
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have you tried running without overclocking? does that change anything?

i've noticed this a *tiny* bit with a few plugins, including vintage warmer (only when opening the plugin - not when changing menus) but for the most part everything is rock solid
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