Old 09-13-2006, 11:10 AM   #1
sinkmusic
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Default top 5 midi bugs that need fixing

Ok, from Senor Justin's himself request here (http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2684), i open a thread dedicated to Reaper's midi-related issues that need to be fixed.
No FR here (you can make some here : http://www.cockos.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=23 or there : http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1126 )



If i make a quick & dumb compilation of what was reported in various threads as "non-working", i roughly end up with that :

1- loop bug (as reported here : http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2625), and most specifically in overdub recording mode, as mentionned here (http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2456)

2- missing first note(s) on loop playing (reported in several conditions, improved in some circumstances, but still here : http://www.cockos.com/forum/showpost...36&postcount=1)

3-Stuck notes, no sound, notes on/off not always very well handled... : as described recently here : http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2600, and in some other threads i can't remembr at the moment, so please, help is welcome.

4-?
5-?


Is it correct ? Are you Ok ? Is it still here in v1,11 ?
Who else is experiencing some midi issues ? Which ones ?
You can specify here some tech spec, project files, comments, etc. in order to help Reaper's midi flow get as good as the audio one !
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Old 09-13-2006, 12:33 PM   #2
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Here's my post about MIDI pitch editting:

http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2577

Justin asked a question in that post:

"OK so is this something then, where at the end of every MIDI file that plays, the pitch should get reset to 0?

any other CCs that should _ALWAYS_ be reset? :/"

I'll reply here to say that, yes the pitch variance needs to be reset to 0 at the end of a MIDI file so that the pitch of notes in subsequent loops of the file are not altered unexpectedly.

I would think this applies to any of the CC values - anyone else have a comment on that?
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Old 09-13-2006, 12:44 PM   #3
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4-stopping overdub recording before the end of the loop creates 2 clips instead of one.

We still have 2 half-clip if we have the bad idea to stop the recording before the end of the loop...




(and : we can not record a note at the early beginning of the loop, which is very annoying, and the sustained notes stop at the end of the loop, which is also quite annoying)...
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Old 09-13-2006, 12:55 PM   #4
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....

- if you play a pad, the notes are off at the end of the loop...
- first note not recorded...

... sadly, bugs are still here in v112.


No feature request hidden here, Justin, but it is very frustrating to read that overdub rec is here, and not being able to use it properly from the start (first note not recorded), to the end (note off), including the middle (2files instead of one)...
It is NOT a musical way of doing at all...
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Old 09-13-2006, 01:01 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by endlessloop
I would think this applies to any of the CC values - anyone else have a comment on that?
don't reset cc-values at the end of a loop! just keep (don't change/send anything) the last cc-value until the next (drawn) value ...

if you need to reset pitchbend-cc, then why don't you draw in this reset at the beginning of the loop?

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Old 09-13-2006, 07:42 PM   #6
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Support for VSTi preset files! FXB!

John
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Old 09-13-2006, 07:55 PM   #7
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Loading multi-channel MIDI files on multiple tracks: one track per channel!



[edit] I just read Justin's proposal for this thread... No feature requests! Only broken stuff... Right. This imo basic feature for any serious MIDI supporting DAW isn't broken cause it hasn't been implemented so far... And I posted the request before; sorry for posting it here again, but I won't delete it

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Old 09-13-2006, 08:30 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alex zonder
Loading multi-channel MIDI files on multiple tracks: one track per channel!
i thought it WAS broken, cause reaper couldn't do that.

also, i don't use midi a whole lot and this may have been fixed, but i quantized something a few versions back and it wasn't right on the grid.

-d. gauss
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Old 09-13-2006, 08:52 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by endlessloop
Justin asked a question in that post:

"OK so is this something then, where at the end of every MIDI file that plays, the pitch should get reset to 0?

any other CCs that should _ALWAYS_ be reset? :/"
Actually, no controller that does not exist in the file should be reset.

If they exist, sustain and sostenuto pedals should be reset. Anything else should be user-controlled.

Three overlapping situations - assume all MIDI files have CC messages in them

1. what happens when a MIDI file ends and another MIDI file in the same track is then sent to the same instrument?

2. what happens when a MIDI file is looped in the middle?

3. what happens when a MIDI file is played starting in the middle?

I think resetting events should in general happen at the beginning rather than at the end, for the same reason we don't turn off delays and reverbs immediately after a clip stops. The clip may play an extremely long decay time, with vibrato, the synth might have reverb or echoes, even a pitch-bent tomtom can overhang the end of a MIDI clip. You don't want these to jump back to default settings yet.

On the other hand, resetting needs to happen enough before the downbeat that it doesn't clog the instruments from actually playing their notes in time, especially while looping.

SO:
in situation 1, I think you want the MIDI file to send its data, and the device be left in that state unless REAPER is stopped/paused/etc. When the second MIDI file is encountered (or slightly before), reset the bend and pedals.

When you stop, you you certainly want to turn off any sustaining notes, and you may want to reset more controllers. Which ones depend on the individual instrument, so if they would need to be programmable at this level.

In situation 2, there's two useful options.

One is to reset nothing, and play the loop as though the user had copy/pasted the MIDI data repeatedly. If this is what they plan to do, this is what they want to hear.

The other option is to chase controllers - i.e. look backwards from the loop start and find the most recent example of each controller, and send these slightly before the beginning of each loop repetition. If a controller is used in the loop, but there is no value previous to this, then use it as the default to reset to.

In situation 3, chasing controllers is almost always what is desired. If you place the play cursor in the middle of a song and press play, you want all the MIDI values (volume, pitch, vibrato, FX) to be where they would be if you had just played the song to this point.

So, in sum, I think "chase controllers" ought to be an option, settable per item, though a project-wide setting would be better than nothing.

It is best if, in loop mode, the chased controllers are sent slightly BEFORE the loop repeat, so the first note of the loop is sent at 1:0.0, and has all the controllers applied to it. I suspect implementing this might help with a bunch of the MIDI loop bugs - for smooth looping, all the loop mechanism stuff has to happen BEFORE ground zero.
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Old 09-13-2006, 11:38 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin
Someone want to make a post "top 5 midi bugs that need fixing"? And don't include psuedo-feature-requests but just shit that is _broken_. ?

-Justin
#1 (more important to me than all the rest combined): Audio and timing glitches occur at loop beginning when recording multiple MIDI takes.

#2: Upon opening a previously saved project, VSTi's on record armed tracks won't output audio until transport is started and stopped once.

#3: Audio stutters while VSTi is being loaded if transport is running. Audio recovers but it is hard on speakers/ears.

#4: During loop recording VSTi audio monitoring cut by note off at end of loop. Presumed to be a bug since this no longer occurs during playback of previously recorded MIDI tracks (WooHoo!).

#5: Clicking on Add FX fails to give the Filter List cursor focus if docked. Works if undocked so assuming it's a bug at this point.

Last edited by EnzymeX; 09-14-2006 at 12:11 AM.
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Old 09-14-2006, 04:20 PM   #11
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I suppose I didn't clearly distinguish "broken" from "partially built", which I see as different than "not built (or designed) yet".

The whole notion of how to deal with initializing MIDI when playing, in various ways, including loops, is not finished, and it seems to be getting finished by bug fixes rather than systemic thought - but that could be just the visible surface. REAPER moves fast.

A third of the MIDI loop bugs I read of aren't bugs in any programming sense, they are either requests to expand a feature or make it work differently than it does. This includes the whole record-overdub mess.

The biggest thing for me that doesn't work in MIDI is the ability to initialize an instrument - to create and save the MIDI data necessary to have an instrument (hardware as well as VSTi) play properly when I push play. Without this it's just impractical to use MIDI at all. When I call up a song to play, all the instruments have different keyboard setups, different soundbanks loaded, different performance settings, most certainly not the controller and FX tweaks particular to that song. And currently REAPER can't do anything about it except send the instruments MIDI files I've prepared in Cakewalk.

But it sure doesn't look like a bugfix.

And I think it a closely related issue, and one intimately related to looping properly, that REAPER also know what to do with this setup info when a MIDI file is played in the middle, or looped.

So I guess I don't think MIDI loop recording CAN be fixed with bugfixes.
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Old 09-14-2006, 05:04 PM   #12
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Quote:
A third of the MIDI loop bugs I read of aren't bugs in any programming sense, they are either requests to expand a feature or make it work differently than it does. This includes the whole record-overdub mess.
Hi SPon,
I don't agree with you about that.


When we talk about 'overdub recording', we talk about 'overdub recording', i was told by Justin himself that "it was here", so it should be here (and working).

If it is told that it is "working" and only needs 'enhancements" -no bugfixes-, let's look at how other DAW work and compare with the way REaper handles : compared to every hosts i have tried for that (Acid, Fruity loops, Live, Energy XT, Tracktion, Phrazor, etc. -and i guess it woudl be the same with Cubase, Samplitude, Orion, Sonar, etc-), Reaper just doesn't work :
-you end up with 2 files where you should have only one,
-you loose sync and hear glitches when the loop goes back to the beginning,
-the notes are stopped in the end and you can't play a note on the first beat !


I just don't call for 'enhanced features', as you said : What would people think if audio worked the same way midi works ?

Let's just imagine a band playing and trying to get recorded, and because of your host :
- every 4 or 5 seconds, the drummer looses tempo (it is what i'm experiencing brievly at each end of loop),
-the rythm guitarist isn't heard for some seconds (= note off at end of loop),
- you hear glitches in the headphones,
- everyone is forbidden to play a note on the first beat of the loop !!!
- and end up with multiple takes where you recorded only one clip !

Would you call that 'enhancing' something that already works fine, or 'fixing bugs' ?
I think what i described above would just be a nightmare for a band, a worst case scenario, a showstopper, so i fell a bit disappointed hearing that just requesting to work in clean conditions, safe and music-orientated, like in any other daw, as comfurtable as with audio is felt like requesting for 'enhancements'.


Do you know a single app where, when you switch overdub on, you end up with two files, have to delete one and stretch the other ? Or do other hosts obviously make one file of the loop lenght's ?
If you ask anybody what overdub loop is, would only 1% of people tell you that it is a way of working with 2 loops to resize manually ? Or would they all say that it is recording one layered file ?
And i recently rade a post in this forum, where the poster claimed that with Reaper's fine audio handling, you could, while recording multitracks, cut clips on the fly and make multiple manipulations in flawless workflow very quickly, easily and nicely, and on the midi size we can't record a lop properly ? To me, it is still far from being a "enhancement"


About the first note not recorded at the beginning of the loop, Justin proposed me to put an empty beat in my loop, but would you imagine a sound enginneer asking the drummer to play one beat of silence every 4 bar for no musical reason, just because his recording gear is just buggy ? Such a recording gear wouldn't need optional enhancements, but serious fixing.
And what annoys me here is that at the moment (except the midi editor which is fine), the midi in Reaper doesn't work in a musical way at all, it is many clicks, manipulations, enabling/disabling, time loss, and so less focusing allowed on creative music and quickly recorded ideas.

I don't want to be misunderstood, I like Reaper a lot, but let's face things as they are : while audio is amazing, multiple users reported several bugs on the midi size that makes the midi workflow far from being perfect, or even clean, quick, easy.
There could be plenty of feature requests, but i do think the priority is 'fixing', to make the most basic stuff : recording a loop in some seconds, playing a pad without note stop, playing a bass on the first beat of a bar.

Last edited by sinkmusic; 09-15-2006 at 01:55 AM.
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Old 09-14-2006, 05:29 PM   #13
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Well, SPon, i rade your post again, then mine again, and i think i reacted quite in an epidermic way.
I fear once again my understanding of english and my way of writing could get misunderstood too, which i don't want : there is no offense to anybody, and i fear that your position on some other points is sad but true ("I guess I don't think MIDI loop recording CAN be fixed with bugfixes.", because with this problem being reported since months, and new versions released nearly every day, if it coudl be fixed with bugfixes, this would have been for long, and i have tried v113, and nothing changes about the overdub)...
BTW, i still think what i wrote, but i guess the starting point was not the aim...

I just don't want to be pessimistic or being seen as "the angry requesting man" of the forum, but this is true i just can't figure why so many things works so damn fine and keep improving on the audio side, and why widi is reported as quite "bloated" with bugs and impractical manipulations since months and just doesn't change (not talking about the midi editor which works very well, not even talking about FR, just talking about a clean workflow without glitches, silence, notes off...).
And i realize i see this from far away, i am not a programmer at all, so i think it is something truely amazing to develop a host, but can't understand why 15 years old crap apps have a prefect workflow about overdub rec & loops, and why such a fine daw like reaper can't make it work : is it patented-to-death code issues ?
I mean, you can buy licenses for almost everything, or even find free ones (timestretch, etc), it seems incredible that midi loop needs to be programmed from scratch by a single man... !
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Old 09-16-2006, 01:42 AM   #14
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Hi all,

Just downloaded and started testing 1.14. Some progress appears to have been made with MIDI since I last checked. Good to see!

I have attached a Project with MIDI files that I was using for testing earlier versions. It can be used to replicate/test the following in v1.14:

(To repro the following just solo whichever Track you're testing)

1. Held notes at the Loop point when Loop Selection is active

Track 1 uses the NuBiPlus VSTi. I had initially reported that the VSTi was broken because it wasn't responding to the Stop command in the REAPER MIDI editor, but now I'm not so sure that the problem is entirely in the VSTi.

If you loop the Transport, NuBiPlus will correctly play back the loop over and over. If, however, you double-click on the Item to select it as a loop, then play, the notes at the end of the loop will be held. Something strange appears to be happening to the MIDI logic when the Loop Selection is active.

2. Audible click at the Loop Point

Repeat the same test with Track 2, which uses ReaSynth. The notes don't get held when a Loop Selection is active, but there is an audible click at the loop point in both modes. This might be a problem with ReaSynth itself.

3. Pitch information held over the end of a loop

Tracks 3 and 4 were being used to test the problem with Pitch information being held over at the end of a loop. They both use the Sytrus VSTi. The MIDI Item in Track 4 contains a pitch shift in the last bar. I am happy to say that this problem appears to have been fixed.

4. Clearing a Loop Selection overloads Sytrus

Solo Track 4 and double-click on the Item to make the Loop Selection active. Press play, then press "Esc" to clear the Loop Selection when the Transport is in the fourth bar (where the Pitch information starts to be read). This will overload Sytrus to +20dB (the Project file is set to automatically Mute the Master when a signal goes over +5dB).

This behaviour only occurs if you hit "Esc" to clear the Loop Selection in the bar that has the Pitch information. Not sure what this means, but it almost ripped the tweeter out of my speaker the first time I experienced it. I think I'll start using the auto-mute Project setting all the time now.

Thanks for spending time attending to MIDI Justin. I'll go do some more testing now.

Cheers,

Malcolm.
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Old 09-16-2006, 03:56 AM   #15
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Hi Macolm.

I haven't tried your project, as i managed to see if "my" problems were gone with the wind in v114.

I think there is a better behaviour, but many nasty bugs are still here :
I tried to record a loop, using only a single VSTI (here, drumular drumsynth), no audio clip involved, no additionnal plugins to be sure to clear multiple problem sources.


Here is the result :










I think i can confirm a better behaviour, as, even if i still wasn't able to record a note on the very first note of the loop, the period of time where i could not record or hear anything is shorter.
So, i still end up with two files (picture 01). I have put the first file in another track to show better how do they lok in a closer view, and i resized them to see them in their full size (pitcure2). Here is what you can see :
1- the second clip (the latest recorderd) : the size is not good (it should be 4 bars long), and the first note is still missing ;
2- the first clip first take of the overdub) : the first bar hasn't been recorded at all ;

So, there is still a problem (at least on my system : could anybody conform this ?) :
-about recording the first notes (even if there is a better behaviour compared to v112 : the "non able to record period" is shorter) ;
- about automatically merging the many layers in one single file with every needed notes and the good loop size (which is proper loop recording).
At the moment, we have to resize & merge them manually which is very annoying, and we only have the option to have the "good size BUT an empty first bar" OR "nearly every notes except the very first ones BUT not the good size".... ;


This is not a VSTI problem, as i tried with many of them, and it always was the same (Monolisa, Mr PHibes, drumatic2, drumatic3, drumular, oatmeal, etc, etc).


I will try now to record a pad, to see if there is still a note off at the endo of the loop.

I guess we're moving towards the right direction, as i rade that Vivaldi had seen his problem fixed. I really do hope a lot to see these one solved too.
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Old 09-16-2006, 07:26 AM   #16
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Default notes on/off

Well, sadly, another still bug to report : the note on/off messages do not behave the way it should...

Here is roughly what i would have liked to have :
http://stashbox.org/uploads/11584158...20off%2001.mp3

Here is what i could get :
https://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/1158416...20on%20off.mp3

This is the weirdest midi note on/off bug i could find. Most of the time, if i play a pad there is an -annoying but "simple"- note off message at the end of the loop, and i can't play notes at the very beginning of the loop, but here, there is obviously a ghost in the machine !
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Old 09-16-2006, 07:27 AM   #17
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Hi Sink,

I tried replicating your results with Loop creation and have attached a Project with MIDI files that shows the outcome.

This project uses the Drumatic 3 VSTi.

I was trying to create a simple 4 bar Kick and Snare loop. I created a four on the floor Kick loop, then quantized it. This is Take 2/6 (02--01.mid).

I then tried recording a Snare on the second and fourth beat of each bar. Take 6/6 (02--05.mid) was what I ended up with at the completion of the recording. As you can see (or hear), it's not right.

The correct Loop (un-quantized) is Take 5/6 (02--04.mid).

You can listen to each of these Takes by right-clicking on the Top Take and selecting from the Takes list.

I agree that it's not useable for recording MIDI loops in its current state.

Cheers,

Malcolm.
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Old 09-16-2006, 07:29 AM   #18
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Hi, me again.

I tried to make a project with midi clips repeated all across the track. Everything looked fine to my eye, but my ears were telling me something was going wrong : the clips seemed not to be in perfect sync.
I opened each clip in the midi editor : the lenght was ok, each one were 4 bars long.
I Played the project once again : same thing, something were wrong...

Then i zoomed a lot, and saw little "chunks" of clips at the end of my midi clips, very small, causing the clips not to loop correctly.

Here is a screenshot with accurate zooming :


I guess it might be some "relics" of previous layers that sohuld have been automaticaly erased after loop recording is finished, but unfortunately it was still here.

Am i the only one so unlucky with midi ?
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Old 09-16-2006, 07:31 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sinkmusic
This is the weirdest midi note on/off bug i could find. Most of the time, if i play a pad there is an -annoying but "simple"- note off message at the end of the loop, and i can't play notes at the very beginning of the loop, but here, there is obviously a ghost in the machine !
Hi Sink,

It sounds similar to the results I was getting with NuBiPlus in my earlier post.

Any chance you could post the Project and MIDI files of these? I think they'd be more useful to Justin for bug-hunting than screenshots and MP3's.

Cheers,

Malcolm.
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Old 09-16-2006, 08:05 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malcolmj
Hi Sink,
I tried replicating your results with Loop creation and have attached a Project with MIDI files that shows the outcome.
This project uses the Drumatic 3 VSTi.

I was trying to create a simple 4 bar Kick and Snare loop. I created a four on the floor Kick loop, then quantized it. This is Take 2/6 (02--01.mid).
I then tried recording a Snare on the second and fourth beat of each bar. Take 6/6 (02--05.mid) was what I ended up with at the completion of the recording. As you can see (or hear), it's not right.
The correct Loop (un-quantized) is Take 5/6 (02--04.mid).

You can listen to each of these Takes by right-clicking on the Top Take and selecting from the Takes list.

I agree that it's not useable for recording MIDI loops in its current state.

Cheers,
Malcolm.
Yes, it is so much a mess !
I'm becoming crazy, i spent 3 hours again today, just trying to understand why doesn't it work !

I talked to Justin yesterday on the irc, he told he was surprised that he believed it was fixed in v113, and this morning, i read that Vivaldi has seen his issues gone : am i doing things so badly ???

I end up with so many parts of clips (half clips, layers, short parts in the end, etc), all with different sizes, i just don't know what to do with it !


I must admit i am a little bit f_cked with Reaper's midi.
As you said above, "it's not useable for recording MIDI loops in its current state". I told this an incredible amount of times, repeating that it was a must-have, a basic need, but i have the impression we are very few to care about it.
I think i'm going to go deeper inside Ext, and go back to Ableton for every quick and easy midi.

What i don't understand is why does anybody seem to care ?
I mean, you're here Malcolm, and you give feedback about the reported issues, but nearly no one else replies if something works or not, and i spend 2 hours a day reporting errors, sending pictures, notes, mp3 trying to help, i create threads to let the dev team know what's going wrong, and Justin just says something like "what? something is still not working with midi ? I'm surprised, It was all fixed in v113"... God ! What's the use creating threads, reporting bugs, if no one reads it ?
The missing first notes issue is known since months, reported many times, I opened a thread dedicated to midi looping issues 3 weeks ago, with very detailled pictures, projects files, and never got any answer from Justin, just like he doesn't care because midi is just not important...

Some audio features were requested in the afternoon 2 days ago, and were here the tomorrow morning in the new version of reaper : fine, it is great, but why do we have this on one side (fulfilled FR in less than 24h, and no bugfixes since weeks on the other side ?), and known bugs since weeks or even months on the other side and no info if it is taken in to consideration ?
I just feel like i'm playing the beta-tester, getting involved, spending a lot of time everyday trying to report everything that can work badly, but what's the use in the end ? I have the impression Justin just doesn't read my bug reports anymore, and don't care/don't see the use.
I don't want to be rude, I know Justin works a lot on Reaper, and i'm still amazed by the audio power of the app (i wouldn't have bought it else) and the daily releases, but quite dissapointed to see that audio development is at least 10 times faster than midi, audio FR and bugfixes are taken into consideration and quickly fixed, but midi is still in beta stage (14 releases after official v1 release).

You're here, some other users are here too, I don't mean i'm giving up, but i think my efforts are quite useless, so i think i'd better do something else than spending so many time in reporting bugs and trying to help, because i always end up with the feeling i'm only complaining, and nothing works better.
I think i made clean work (anybody who would like to know what is working or not about midi recording can read my posts, you have pictures, bold & underlined text, many infos, etc).
I know we can't have everything in a few seconds, but when i see that the same (very old, many time reported) bugs are still there, and no info from the dev team about if they do care and still work on it (Justin told me yesterday on the irc he was working on it, but no precise info, and the irc is not the forum), it is a bit disappointing.
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Old 09-16-2006, 08:24 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malcolmj
Hi Sink,
It sounds similar to the results I was getting with NuBiPlus in my earlier post.

Any chance you could post the Project and MIDI files of these? I think they'd be more useful to Justin for bug-hunting than screenshots and MP3's.

Cheers,
Malcolm.
Hi malcolm
Sorry, but it was so much crap it bothered me (both because the melody was terrible, and that midi wasn't working), i didn't saved it !

And i think that as long as we won't have a decent overdub mode (only one single clean file of the loop's lenght -instead of halves, chunks, parts, bits, layers everywhere-, the ability to record notes since the first microsecond, and no note off if not wished in the end), i will use Phrazor or Ext.
FL users are lucky, they can use their nice midi host wrapped as a vsti in Reaper. Live doesn't do this.

Last edited by sinkmusic; 09-16-2006 at 08:30 AM.
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Old 09-16-2006, 08:26 AM   #22
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agreed. i would love to use reaper, but the midi-side is almost non-working imo (missing workflow and features and all those strange little bugs). that's why i didn't bought a license yet. only have reaper installed to find bugs at the moment ...
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Old 09-16-2006, 08:50 AM   #23
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I don't want to be misunderstood : I'm glad having bought it, because i think it worths 40$ for the audio side (even if i crave for right-click only = select multiple items and a "save as" option in the midi editor, among other things).

But i wouldn't have spent one penny for the midi, as it was, and as it is still.
It is Reaper's crap midi that made me buy Energyxt.
I was still confident (there had several improvements since the early days, mainly with the midi editor), but i really don't understand why spending so many time on a compressor's cpu use or winamp vizualisation plugin is more important than giving the ability to midi users to basically record a beat ?


When i go to the Reaper's bug report forum, i see that the top 3 (both most recent and most views) is sadly devoted to midi bugs, nearly all of them known since a long time and not fixed yet, without really knowing if it's in the works or not.
Curiously, i have never seen so many information about the way midi was taken in to consideration in the "v1,xx is out : wooo !" threads...

And if Justin needs any of my projects about loop recording, i think i could have asked it here (http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2456), a thread started 3 weeks ago, with 311 views and 26 contributions, but not a single one from the dev team (except maybe you , malcolm), which made me think that they didn't really considered this like something important (which was nearly confirmed yesterday when Justin asked something i understood like "what's wrong with midi ?")...

I'm glad to read that something is going, at last, in the midi direction (Vivaldi's bug is over : yeah ! we're moving towards midi.. !), so maybe the next versions will see proper overdub implementation and no more vanishing notes (unheard/unrecorded, stopped), but i am now convinced that Reaper is made by/for non midi users, killer for audio, but a little bit ashamed of its current midi implementation (elese, the "overdub" recording mode wouldn't be hidden in the depths of multiple obscure manipulations, but available easily just as equal as the other recording modes in the menu).
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Old 09-16-2006, 09:01 AM   #24
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that's why i requested a bugtracker system sometime ago. there priorities could be given to bugs and feature-requests and we would have a much better view on the development of reaper ...

see Discog's Bugtracker for example ...
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Old 09-16-2006, 09:06 AM   #25
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Ok, last one I think for today.

The question to me is damn simple : In Reaper, what doesn't work for audio recording, and what does work for midi recording ?


I really can not understand the many bonus additions to an almost perfect system on the audio side, when nearly no efforts seems to be put in making midi just work.
Of course, i couldn't complain about seeing new fancy audio-dedicated things (i woudl be dumb not to be happy), but if your house is trapped in a storm and one of your walls is destroyed, what would you do first : build again the destroyed wall, or put some painting on the one which is still up to make it fancier ?
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Old 09-17-2006, 06:29 AM   #26
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Default MIDI buffer not clearing properly

I will add to this list something that's been mentioned several times before - the MIDI buffers not clearing properly.

If I stop playback midway through the Project I am currently working on, then play from zero, the MIDI buffer contains notes held over from the point I had previously stopped at. Instead of a clean start, I get a partial note from the stop point. This held note also appeared in a render I did of the Project. I found the only way to make sure this didn't appear in the Render was to play through the entire Project from beginning to end before making a render.

The Project currently uses two instances of Atmosphere and one instance of BB303i v2. The held notes are coming from Atmosphere.

Cheers,

Malcolm.
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Old 09-17-2006, 06:34 AM   #27
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exactly. i've reported it also here: http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2438
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Old 09-17-2006, 06:49 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dandruff
exactly. i've reported it also here: http://www.cockos.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2438
Ah, my apologies Dandruff, I didn't realise this was the same behaviour you were reporting. I don't have "Run FX" enabled on this Project either.

I will try and test it tomorrow with that option enabled to see if it clears the buffers.

Cheers,

Malcolm.
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Old 09-17-2006, 07:31 AM   #29
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ok, thank you! i've posted your description in the thread too. hope this gets fixed ...
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Old 09-21-2006, 03:46 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by malcolmj
I then tried recording a Snare on the second and fourth beat of each bar. Take 6/6 (02--05.mid) was what I ended up with at the completion of the recording. As you can see (or hear), it's not right.

The correct Loop (un-quantized) is Take 5/6 (02--04.mid).

You can listen to each of these Takes by right-clicking on the Top Take and selecting from the Takes list.
... </snip>
Tried this again in v1.18 with a different VSTi - this time the CM505 - and got exactly the same behaviour. The top Take at the end of a loop recording session does not contain all of the MIDI data.
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Old 09-21-2006, 10:32 AM   #31
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Default weird clip lenght

Hello Malcolm & Dandruff


I'm playing with 118
Some improvement were made, but :
- at the second pass, i still have a blank beat were i can't play/hear/record anything (tested with several vsti) ;
- when the loop comes back to the beginning i hear a short glitch ;
- And, most annoying : i end up with only one file (which is better than the multiple overlayed ones like in previous versions), but the big problem is that, instead of having ONE single file of the loop's length, i have one file of another lenght (here a little less than 3 bars, where the loop were set to 4 bars long)...
If i try to move it, to check if previous layer-recorded files wouldn't be "under" this one (like it was previously), there is nothing.
If you open the midi file in the midi editor, you will see that no note were recorded in the beginning of the file.


You will find everything i'm talking about ni the zipped project here :
http://stashbox.org/uploads/11588598...adloop)-01.zip


And also can see 2 of the problems on this picture :
1-nothing can be recorded at the beginning of the loop ;
2-the clip isn't 4-bar long (the loop's lenght) ;



I didn't gave Reaper's midi a try since v115, so i'm glad to hear that it is moving towards "more midi working", but this thing is so weird i just don't understand why it isn't the correct lenght (and i really hope it is easy to reproduce from my project and to fix)?
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Old 09-21-2006, 10:35 AM   #32
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Default SAVE AS !!! SAVE AS !!!

... and keeping promoting a "save as" option in the menu of the midi editor !
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Old 09-21-2006, 11:22 AM   #33
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Default notes off

When playing (even not recording) a sustained note (= a "pad"), the notes are off when coming back at the beginning of the loop. Everytime.
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Old 09-21-2006, 11:56 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sinkmusic
When playing (even not recording) a sustained note (= a "pad"), the notes are off when coming back at the beginning of the loop. Everytime.
so when recording and looping, no sending of all notes off then? normally you NEED to do this, but that would be the exception?

right?

-J
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Old 09-21-2006, 12:26 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin
so when recording and looping, no sending of all notes off then?
of course not! it's a pain art the moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin
normally you NEED to do this
normally? why ALL notes off? never played a long pad or other sounds with high release while looping?
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Old 09-21-2006, 12:34 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin
so when recording and looping, no sending of all notes off then? normally you NEED to do this, but that would be the exception?
right?
-J
I must say it is a question i never asked myself this way
But compared to every other hosts i have used so far, it was so intuitive i didn't even had to ask myself that question. I mean : In Reaper, it is like it is too rough, not an "intelligent" on/off.

I will try to give some examples, but maybe that some other users could explain it in a better english :

- of course, we don't need to keep every played notes layereing until the synth reaches its max polyphony ;

- But on the opposite, some notes are here to be kept playing, so they should be still heard., and fade normally as the synth's enveloppe tells it to. at the moment, when the loop goes back to beginning, it is "brute mute". So, in case of pads, i'm losing a lot of my harmonics made by subtle layering of slow attack and long release synths settings; I don't know if it makes sense ?

- here is another example : If i have my hands on the controller keyboard, trying to find the correct note to add to a melody, the notes shouldn't stop when coming back at the beginning of the loop if my hands are still on the keyboard's controller, just because i keep playing them ! So, if i play them, i have to hear them... Or i don't really know how my clip will sound when it will be recorded and repeated all along the track.
It is like having a very long delay with huge feedback, and each time it goes back to the beginning, it mutes itself and doesn't layer the repeated sound....

I must say it is a bit hard to say how it should be, because before the question got asked that way, midi looping was something very "transparent " to me : In Live or Fruity loops, or Energy XT or Tracktion, the notes were playing "seamlessly", if my fingers were still on the controller when the loop was coming back at the beginning, i was still hearing it, and my pads were always fading slowly (except if i hitted "stop").
So, in a very "sorry-i-don't-know-anything-about-programming" way of talking, i woudl say : it should do "like in any other host"... like i used to hear in the host i still use or used (does it help or is it a not easily understandable explanation attetmpt ? ).
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Old 09-21-2006, 12:39 PM   #37
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yeah just send each note normally (note on, note off). no need for an "all notes off" here!


additionally to avoid hanging notes: if you skip (while on a note) during playback, reaper has to send a note off for this skipped note! so this must be improved. but please remove this "all notes off" command after each loop!

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Old 09-22-2006, 04:11 AM   #38
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Default v119

Ok.
I tested a little bit v119 today :

- there is still the "bad clip lenght" bug in midi loop recording.
I guess the (wrong) size of file is determined by the moment you hit "stop recording".
I also noticed that, if, just after telling "yes, i want to keep that midi file", you hit [ctrl+Z], the "last full-loop-size-layered-take clip" is shown instead of the "last recorded but not of the right size" one. Does it makes sense ?

- the first notes are still not being recorded. You can load the zipped project i sent yesterday : it is still the same.

- There is still that "brutal" "note off" message at the end of the loop. If (even without recording), you play sustained notes from your controller keyobard, it is all set to off when coming back at the beginning of the loop. I don't see the use of this brutal stop, i don't know how (technically) do other hosts do, but i know they don't behave like that...
So i would say like Dandruff : "just send each note normally (note on, note off). no need for an "all notes off" here!
"
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Old 09-22-2006, 04:18 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sinkmusic
i don't know how (technically) do other hosts do, but i know they don't behave like that...
in cubase/nuendo no "all notes off" is sent at the end of a loop. if i remember correctly you can additionally change it in the preferences there ...
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Old 09-22-2006, 04:33 AM   #40
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Well, i don't criticize, maybe that with my use i just don't see a way of doing where all note off is neeeded, and that everybody woul d use but not me, but like it is now, the "loop" has no sense, because if you reset all sounds to zero, it is like playing oneshot : you lose all the benefit of looping methods, like being able to hear long notes from the end of the clip overlaying with first notes, and listening to the result the way it will sound if you repeat the clip many times on the time line.
To me, it is a bit one of the core principle of that quick & easy sketching method.
If you have a hardware groovebox, i can't imagine that the sounds will stop each time the pattern goes back to the beginning !
(BTW, i was not talking about recording, just loop playing, and trying some pads from a vsti controlled by a midi controller).
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