Old 10-19-2020, 03:52 PM   #241
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Originally Posted by siniarch View Post
Doing some initial test of firmware to make sure things are working well. If everything goes well, we'll be uploading firmware to encoders that will allow them to output Midi Code. The OLED screen firmware is still in the works. But if this works, we basically would have a 24 encoder unit that could start controlling Reaper through CSI.
Each time I revisit the thread, I see things a little differently than before.

So I'm concerned about the angle issue, but see your point about raising the expense and complexity putting angles in the case design.

Also, I'm not wild about the look of my little mockup illustration.

But while my Faderport8 (and the Behringer Xtouch and others) suffer from poor viewing angles as their primary issue, that doesn't really apply here; the oleds are clear regardless (nice displays!). The issue is that the knobs are obstructing them.

But how about this?

What if you simply flipped the orientation of the display boards so that the knobs are above the displays rather than below? The buttons could remain on bottom, and the displays would be entirely visible. Also, that would make the bottom row of displays share nicely between the rotaries and the buttons.

Just a suggestion.
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Old 10-19-2020, 04:38 PM   #242
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Each time I revisit the thread, I see things a little differently than before.

So I'm concerned about the angle issue, but see your point about raising the expense and complexity putting angles in the case design.

Also, I'm not wild about the look of my little mockup illustration.

But while my Faderport8 (and the Behringer Xtouch and others) suffer from poor viewing angles as their primary issue, that doesn't really apply here; the oleds are clear regardless (nice displays!). The issue is that the knobs are obstructing them.

But how about this?

What if you simply flipped the orientation of the display boards so that the knobs are above the displays rather than below? The buttons could remain on bottom, and the displays would be entirely visible. Also, that would make the bottom row of displays share nicely between the rotaries and the buttons.

Just a suggestion.
Not a bad suggestion and one that Geoff actually wanted implemented. I will consider creating both cases.

Thanks again for the suggestion.
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Old 10-19-2020, 04:58 PM   #243
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Someone mentioned angling the unit itself. I actually recently bought some sticky, rubber feet to angle my old Novation Remote Zero SL. Worked like a charm! The two rubber feet are just under an inch tall and that made a world of difference from a usability perspective in my weird little setup. If the unit were flat and the surface angle wasn't working, that's exactly what I'd do here.

You can find 'em on Amazon if you search: Conical Rubber Bumpers Black.

Just saying, there's more than one way to skin a cat. I do like the idea of being able to invert the unit and use it with the displays below. Sometimes on my Artist mix, the pan pots get in the way of the OLED displays because of the angle of my setup. So an upside down version could potentially work better for me. Hopefully the displays and rotaries could be easily inverted via software.

I'm curious if you found a solution for mounting everything? I almost wonder if a single PCB now that you have the dimensions and layout settled makes more sense and would help solve that problem.
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Old 10-19-2020, 07:55 PM   #244
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These 23 black little puppies came in today.(I'm talking about the knobs of course)

After installing them all, it is clear that the OLED screen needs to be on the bottom.

Even when I'm right above the unit, placing my fingers on the encoder obstructs the screen if the screen is on top. But also when placing the unit above my keyboard, the encoders obstruct the screens.

Take a look at these photos:
UNIT WITH OLED SCREENS ABOVE (slightly angled)



UNIT WITH OLED SCREENS BELOW (slightly less angled)


************************************************** **************************************************
***************The following photos I tried to place the camera where my eyes would be.**************
************************************************** **************************************************

OLED SCREENS ABOVE
(Sitting in mix position with unit above keyboard. Notice finger completely blocks screen.)


OLED SCREENS ABOVE
(Sitting in mix position with unit below keyboard and me right above controller. When right above controller, the encoders do not block OLED screen, but my finger does)


OLED SCREENS BELOW
(Sitting at mix position with unit above keyboard. Fingers do not block screen below)


OLED SCREENS BELOW
(Sitting at mix position with unit below keyboard and me right above controller. Even when right above controller, my fingers do not block the screen below.)


************************************************** ***********************************************

It is clear to me that the screens below will be less obstructed and easier to read and must be the path forward. What do you guys think?



.
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Old 10-19-2020, 08:23 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by siniarch View Post
Thank you Geoff. And great job to you as well. I see people are ironing out the kinks out of the latest release.
Quote:
Originally Posted by siniarch View Post
These 23 black little puppies came in today.(I'm talking about the knobs of course)

After installing them all, it is clear that the OLED screen needs to be on the bottom.

Even when I'm right above the unit, placing my fingers on the encoder obstructs the screen if the screen is on top. But also when placing the unit above my keyboard, the encoders obstruct the screens.

Take a look at these photos:
UNIT WITH OLED SCREENS ABOVE (slightly angled)



UNIT WITH OLED SCREENS BELOW (slightly less angled)


************************************************** **************************************************
***************The following photos I tried to place the camera where my eyes would be.**************
************************************************** **************************************************

OLED SCREENS ABOVE
(Sitting in mix position with unit above keyboard. Notice finger completely blocks screen.)


OLED SCREENS ABOVE
(Sitting in mix position with unit below keyboard and me right above controller. When right above controller, the encoders do not block OLED screen, but my finger does)


OLED SCREENS BELOW
(Sitting at mix position with unit above keyboard. Fingers do not block screen below)


OLED SCREENS BELOW
(Sitting at mix position with unit below keyboard and me right above controller. Even when right above controller, my fingers do not block the screen below.)


************************************************** ***********************************************

It is clear to me that the screens below will be less obstructed and easier to read and must be the path forward. What do you guys think?



.
Seems obvious at this point. Make the change!
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Old 10-20-2020, 01:49 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by siniarch View Post
These 23 black little puppies came in today.(I'm talking about the knobs of course)

After installing them all, it is clear that the OLED screen needs to be on the bottom.

It is clear to me that the screens below will be less obstructed and easier to read and must be the path forward. What do you guys think?
Disagree wholeheartedly

Take a look at this:

https://imgur.com/a/F7fYeLV

I mounted the Console1 at a 60 degree angle to solve exactly the same problem.

Most hardware versions of the FX we use are rack mounted vertically.

The 60 degree orientation was a nice compromise, IMHO

When I suggested screens below, it was in the context of an option, not a hard choice.

I would much prefer screens above and a more vertical orientation, since that models much closer to the real world hardware.

The console1 is about 7 inches, very close to your dimension in that plane.

One last thing -- hopefully you can get knobs without the arrow markings.

Since the rotaries are not motorized, the markings (unless you are very lucky) will almost always be different than the led ring indicators if you adjust a parameter in Reaper via the mouse, or upon initial load of the FX, completely confusing
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Old 10-20-2020, 03:33 AM   #247
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My question is: What is the light power ratio between the ring LEDs and the text screens? Will the light from the LED rings not blind the user making reading text screens too hard?
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Old 10-20-2020, 06:10 AM   #248
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I think the version with the screens at the bottom would work much better for most use cases. Agree with Geoff regarding the knobs though: if these are endless encoders, you definitely want blank knobs with no marking.
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Old 10-20-2020, 08:07 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Disagree wholeheartedly

Take a look at this:

https://imgur.com/a/F7fYeLV

I mounted the Console1 at a 60 degree angle to solve exactly the same problem.

Most hardware versions of the FX we use are rack mounted vertically.

The 60 degree orientation was a nice compromise, IMHO
Wait; is this controller meant to be used in a flat, desktop level installation or a vertical, rack-mount installation? Rack-mount gear is always more difficult to use when mounted horizontally due to it's vertical use design, and the same goes for desktop gear mounted in a vertical rack. I was under the impression this controller was intended for desktop, table-level use. Maybe I missed something from earlier?

FWIW, I also have my Console 1 mounted on a stand, though nowhere near 60 degrees.; just enough of an angle to view the LED rings in their entirety (as there are no other indicators available on that controller). With that setup, my fingers/hands also land in a "from the top/side" position exactly as siniarch's pictures above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
When I suggested screens below, it was in the context of an option, not a hard choice.
Options are always fun; perhaps a "flip" functionality? I think I saw that mentioned earlier.

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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
I would much prefer screens above and a more vertical orientation, since that models much closer to the real world hardware.
Which "real world" hardware are you referring to? No one has ever successfully designed anything like this before, with the possible exception being the mammoth-sized, impractical to use Mackie C4. Unless you mean rack-mount units?

Not wanting to be all Mr. Negative here; just genuinely a bit confused.

Last edited by Mr. Green; 10-20-2020 at 08:23 AM.
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Old 10-20-2020, 08:57 AM   #250
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Which "real world" hardware are you referring to? No one has ever successfully designed anything like this before, with the possible exception being the mammoth-sized, impractical to use Mackie C4. Unless you mean rack-mount units?
Yes, I meant the hardware units.
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Old 10-20-2020, 09:26 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Disagree wholeheartedly

Take a look at this:
https://imgur.com/a/F7fYeLV

I mounted the Console1 at a 60 degree angle to solve exactly the same problem.
Most hardware versions of the FX we use are rack mounted vertically.
The 60 degree orientation was a nice compromise, IMHO
When I suggested screens below, it was in the context of an option, not a hard choice.
I would much prefer screens above and a more vertical orientation, since that models much closer to the real world hardware.
The console1 is about 7 inches, very close to your dimension in that plane.
One last thing -- hopefully you can get knobs without the arrow markings.
Since the rotaries are not motorized, the markings (unless you are very lucky) will almost always be different than the led ring indicators if you adjust a parameter in Reaper via the mouse, or upon initial load of the FX, completely confusing
Well, when the creator of CSI "wholeheartedly" disagrees, then it certainly gets my attention. I do think that most people will be placing the unit on a desk and not mounting it vertically as you have done Geoff. But, I'd be an ungrateful little shit (excuse the language. I curse like a sailor) if I didn't provide something for you, after creating CSI and making it possible for me to develop this controller. So, worry not, Geoff. I'll make two options. (at least for you, hahah)

As for the arrows on the encoders, I did hear your comments last time and they will have no markings on the top. The problem was that I had to order 500 units and wait 2-3 weeks if I wanted them without markings. Shipping already took about 1.5 weeks, so I didn't want to wait 4-6 weeks for them. That is why I just order these with arrows for now, but the units being sold, will not have that.
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Old 10-20-2020, 09:28 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Piszpan View Post
My question is: What is the light power ratio between the ring LEDs and the text screens? Will the light from the LED rings not blind the user making reading text screens too hard?
We are still working on the firmware, but my goal is for those settings to be adjustable by the user. This way, if someone wants bright LED Ring they can have it and if someone wants it dimmed down, they can have that as well. Same with screen brightness.
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Old 10-20-2020, 09:36 AM   #253
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Well, when the creator of CSI "wholeheartedly" disagrees, then it certainly gets my attention. I do think that most people will be placing the unit on a desk and not mounting it vertically as you have done Geoff. But, I'd be an ungrateful little shit (excuse the language. I curse like a sailor) if I didn't provide something for you, after creating CSI and making it possible for me to develop this controller. So, worry not, Geoff. I'll make two options. (at least for you, hahah)
If you were to rearrange the buttons to work with the display-down design, what would you think of implementing a "flip" function for vertical installation with optional rack mounts? That might just cover all scenarios. :-)
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Old 10-20-2020, 09:48 AM   #254
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If you were to rearrange the buttons to work with the display-down design, what would you think of implementing a "flip" function for vertical installation with optional rack mounts? That might just cover all scenarios. :-)
If I understand you correctly.
Create a unit with screens below encoders.
Move the buttons to what now is consider the bottom.
And allow this unit to be flipped and mounted vertically to a rack upside down.

The only problem I see with that is that the buttons would end up at the top when mounted vertically upside down. Not sure that works for Geoff.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that none of what I'm doing would be possible without Geoff. At least not for Reaper and I would not have started this endeavor without CSI. In recognition of that and the debt of gratitude I will happily make a custom case for Geoff.

But moving forward I do believe that most users will set up the controller on a desk. And even if it's tilted 15-30 degrees, having the screens at the bottom makes more sense.
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Old 10-20-2020, 10:03 AM   #255
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If I understand you correctly.
Create a unit with screens below encoders.
Move the buttons to what now is consider the bottom.
And allow this unit to be flipped and mounted vertically to a rack upside down.
Yes, this exactly.

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Originally Posted by siniarch View Post
The only problem I see with that is that the buttons would end up at the top when mounted vertically upside down. Not sure that works for Geoff.
There is one other advantage to having the buttons below the displays (or above when flipped); they will have direct proximity to their appropriate labels as presented in the displays they are adjacent to instead of being separated by a row of encoders.

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Originally Posted by siniarch View Post
I guess what I'm trying to say is that none of what I'm doing would be possible without Geoff. At least not for Reaper and I would not have started this endeavor without CSI. In recognition of that and the debt of gratitude I will happily make a custom case for Geoff.
I completely understand and agree. :-)

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Originally Posted by siniarch View Post
But moving forward I do believe that most users will set up the controller on a desk. And even if it's tilted 15-30 degrees, having the screens at the bottom makes more sense.
Got it.
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Old 10-20-2020, 10:09 AM   #256
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There is one other advantage to having the buttons below the displays (or above when flipped); they will have direct proximity to their appropriate labels as presented in the displays they are adjacent to instead of being separated by a row of encoders.
I do agree with it being good that the buttons are near an OLED, but I'm trying to refrain myself form sharing screens. I do have a few things up my sleeve. (maybe something that will be implemented on version 2)
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Old 10-20-2020, 10:18 AM   #257
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I do agree with it being good that the buttons are near an OLED, but I'm trying to refrain myself form sharing screens. I do have a few things up my sleeve. (maybe something that will be implemented on version 2)
Dare I guess?...
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Old 10-20-2020, 10:19 AM   #258
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Hi there.
Just a thought to throw in for you.
All lcds above the encoders - something based around attached image?
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Old 10-20-2020, 11:21 AM   #259
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Well, when the creator of CSI "wholeheartedly" disagrees, then it certainly gets my attention. I do think that most people will be placing the unit on a desk and not mounting it vertically as you have done Geoff. But, I'd be an ungrateful little shit (excuse the language. I curse like a sailor) if I didn't provide something for you, after creating CSI and making it possible for me to develop this controller. So, worry not, Geoff. I'll make two options. (at least for you, hahah)

As for the arrows on the encoders, I did hear your comments last time and they will have no markings on the top. The problem was that I had to order 500 units and wait 2-3 weeks if I wanted them without markings. Shipping already took about 1.5 weeks, so I didn't want to wait 4-6 weeks for them. That is why I just order these with arrows for now, but the units being sold, will not have that.
Haha, no need to create a special one

I do understand that in this modern world most will use it flat on a desk, i will find a way that works for me with the stock one

All of this got me thinking about why things are the way they are, so permit me a small amount of soapbox time.

I grew up on Studers and Neves, and guitar/bass amps from the 60's, 70's, 80's.

I think that's why I have the following setup (from an ergo perspective):

Artist Mix units -- Faders are best operated in flat, so my Mix units are flat, but the compromise is that the encoders are hard to see, just as you have illustrated.

Console 1 -- as shown before -- 60 degree angle.

Novation Launch Pad mini mk3 -- a bunch of push buttons -- flat is the way to go here.

Most guitar/bass amps have the controls in vertical orientation.

Most rack gear is mounted vertically or close to it.

On expensive consoles (Neve, SSL, API, etc.) the faders are flat and the rotaries are mounted in an angle. The cheaper ones have everything flat, and folks tend to angle those up a bit as a compromise. On the Studer, the transport buttons are flat and the individual track controls are vertical.

That's because it's natural to press buttons / operate faders in the flat position.

Now think of a rotary in vertical orientation -- put your hand out straight and imagine you are turning one -- your wrist is in a natural position.

Do the same with horizontal orientation - you tend to bend your wrist and in doing so, much more of your hand obscures the knob/surrounding area.

I'm not saying we have to blindly follow the past, just pointing out that, given more money, things tended to get done a certain way back then for very good reasons.

Just something to ponder...
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Old 10-20-2020, 11:23 AM   #260
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Dare I guess?...
Love those -- but last time I checked the price was through the roof
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Old 10-20-2020, 11:28 AM   #261
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Love those -- but last time I checked the price was through the roof
That's the part that worries me, lol.
Hence the word, "dare".
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Old 10-20-2020, 12:36 PM   #262
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Artist Mix units -- Faders are best operated in flat, so my Mix units are flat, but the compromise is that the encoders are hard to see, just as you have illustrated.
You don't keep the feet installed on the Artist Mix (the ones that come with it)? Puts the unit at a slight angle, which I like. I just thought everyone used them.
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Old 10-20-2020, 12:54 PM   #263
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https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...ist-mix-series

Posting an example of a common setup, even in Geoff's picture it seems he is doing something similar. Take a look at large format consoles, how they are laid out more for feel rather than to see everything (one cannot possibly read every single parameter on those!). I personally have more vertical racked stuff right now....

An ergonomic note about vertical racking knobbed units: it's cool for individual gear, you probably don't spend too much time on any one single gear, make a small adjustment and move on every so often. That angle is very hard on the wrists, the elbows, shoulders, and neck. Having knobbed gear desktop and maybe slightly angled is much more ergonomic, like using the mouse properly where you're floating your arm, let your wrist and fingers relax as they point down and manipulate. Much less stress on the arm from the forearm to the neck. So, a unit like this that will likely serve functions for several/many plugins, will be used a lot more than any one piece of gear and should be considered for desktop or flat racks installs.

One last thing I'll say bout the knobs. This is what users are going to touch/feel/manipulate. FOR EVERrrrrrr. Nothing else on the unit is going to get more attention than those. So....let them be the best they can be
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Old 10-20-2020, 01:45 PM   #264
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You don't keep the feet installed on the Artist Mix (the ones that come with it)? Puts the unit at a slight angle, which I like. I just thought everyone used them.
Mine are now in a pseudo drawer of limited height, so not an option.
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Old 10-20-2020, 01:49 PM   #265
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https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...ist-mix-series

Posting an example of a common setup, even in Geoff's picture it seems he is doing something similar.
Yes, although it's recently changed -- imagine a keyboard tray on that unit -- the mix units and transport slide underneath when not in use -- the top surface is now occupied by Console1, Launchpad, etc.
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Old 10-20-2020, 02:50 PM   #266
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I can certainly see that setup as advantageous.

On a larger board I would prefer that. The first board I ever touched was a Neve 8128. EQ/send/preamp section was angeled afaik, as was the inline fader iirc. Main fader flat. EDIT - just checked and the entire board was one plane, slightly angled. It still worked, but I wouldn't want that kind of build today.



My current setup is a Faderport 16-fader, slightly angled on a metal laptop thing from Amazon because of the scribble strips being almost flat. I would have preferred an angled strip, or strips right above the faders. One control section for eq/preeq/sends on banks which is lightly angled. Comp/DeEss/FocusFX section is angled strongly just above the eq section.

iPad with OSC send/surround pan control on a stand at steep angle(>60 degrees I'd say) right on the large mouse pad. Some control buttons flat just in front of the pad.

I'd always angle knobs, usually because I want to be able to read the strips or see the colour LED strips of my MFT units. That colour is how I can instantly tell what I'm looking at. The Avid Icons had a bit of a weakness there, so in the end I mostly relied on muscle memory more than anything. Colours or easy to read strips are easy to find and reinforce good muscle memory.

That's also one of the reasons I keep bringing up coloured parameter knobs on the MCP.

The angled stuff just comes natural.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington View Post
Haha, no need to create a special one

I do understand that in this modern world most will use it flat on a desk, i will find a way that works for me with the stock one

All of this got me thinking about why things are the way they are, so permit me a small amount of soapbox time.

I grew up on Studers and Neves, and guitar/bass amps from the 60's, 70's, 80's.

I think that's why I have the following setup (from an ergo perspective):

Artist Mix units -- Faders are best operated in flat, so my Mix units are flat, but the compromise is that the encoders are hard to see, just as you have illustrated.

Console 1 -- as shown before -- 60 degree angle.

Novation Launch Pad mini mk3 -- a bunch of push buttons -- flat is the way to go here.

Most guitar/bass amps have the controls in vertical orientation.

Most rack gear is mounted vertically or close to it.

On expensive consoles (Neve, SSL, API, etc.) the faders are flat and the rotaries are mounted in an angle. The cheaper ones have everything flat, and folks tend to angle those up a bit as a compromise. On the Studer, the transport buttons are flat and the individual track controls are vertical.

That's because it's natural to press buttons / operate faders in the flat position.

Now think of a rotary in vertical orientation -- put your hand out straight and imagine you are turning one -- your wrist is in a natural position.

Do the same with horizontal orientation - you tend to bend your wrist and in doing so, much more of your hand obscures the knob/surrounding area.

I'm not saying we have to blindly follow the past, just pointing out that, given more money, things tended to get done a certain way back then for very good reasons.

Just something to ponder...
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Old 10-22-2020, 06:09 AM   #267
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I had a face plate 3D printed which looks pretty good. Unfortunately, the screen cutouts are slightly lower than they should be. But when you look from the bottom up, it kind of works.

Since I've decided to place the screens below, I will have to make a new 3D printed face plate. So not a big deal that I had the holes wrong. It's looking pretty nice if I do say so myself.

Testing the initial firmware still, but making progress. (obviously, disregard the cardboard outline which is just a mockup. the black face should be the actual size of the unit)


Last edited by siniarch; 10-22-2020 at 06:15 AM.
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Old 10-22-2020, 06:34 AM   #268
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I had a face plate 3D printed which looks pretty good. Unfortunately, the screen cutouts are slightly lower than they should be. But when you look from the bottom up, it kind of works.

Since I've decided to place the screens below, I will have to make a new 3D printed face plate. So not a big deal that I had the holes wrong. It's looking pretty nice if I do say so myself.

Testing the initial firmware still, but making progress. (obviously, disregard the cardboard outline which is just a mockup. the black face should be the actual size of the unit)

Looks great, absolutely love it in black !!
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Old 10-22-2020, 06:38 AM   #269
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Looks great, absolutely love it in black !!
Thanks Geoff. It does look pretty cool. I'll send out for a new face plate with the screen holes corrected. Maybe I'll send out for 2. One for screens below, and one for screens above.

I'll try and figure out the bottom part of the case as well. This way I can have that printed at the same time. Once I figure this out, I can start looking for manufacturers to make the case in aluminum.
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Old 10-22-2020, 08:03 AM   #270
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Case looks great. Glad to see this really coming together!

Once the firmware is all done in sorted, I'd be very curious to see how the OLED's looking displaying just parameter name and values. Looking at the screen print, I can't make out most of the text, but I realize those aren't final. Just hope the font size and width, along with displays are nice and legible. The Artist Mix series does a nice job with this.
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Old 10-22-2020, 09:25 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by siniarch View Post
I had a face plate 3D printed which looks pretty good. Unfortunately, the screen cutouts are slightly lower than they should be. But when you look from the bottom up, it kind of works.

Since I've decided to place the screens below, I will have to make a new 3D printed face plate. So not a big deal that I had the holes wrong. It's looking pretty nice if I do say so myself.

Testing the initial firmware still, but making progress. (obviously, disregard the cardboard outline which is just a mockup. the black face should be the actual size of the unit)

WOW!!! I've been lurking this thread since day one and this looks extremely promising... great work y'all...
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Old 10-23-2020, 12:07 PM   #272
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WOW!!! I've been lurking this thread since day one and this looks extremely promising... great work y'all...
Plus9db,
Thanks for commenting. Yes, I'm very excited myself. We are getting close to the phase where the controller firmware is figured out and it's just a matter of communicating with Reaper via CSI.
I'm also speaking with someone about having it working on Studio One as well. So things look promising.
I'll keep posting when I have more progress.
Thanks.
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Old 10-23-2020, 12:19 PM   #273
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Dude, that looks so nice! keep up the great work!
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Old 10-23-2020, 10:02 PM   #274
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Looks very promising ! Kudos
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Old 10-24-2020, 09:48 AM   #275
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Yup. Gotta agree with all the above; looking amazing so far!
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Old 10-24-2020, 10:10 AM   #276
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Hey guys,

Thanks so much for your kind words.
I spoke to a friend of mine who is trying to get her company to do a prototype case for me for free in order to get my business. So that would save me a little money on the first case.

I'm about to order a new 3D printed case with the screens below. So I should get that in 2-3 weeks.

As for the firmware, I've been testing and the encoders are able to send system codes for rotation, left and right with acceleration. Push button press/release and touch/release codes. Currently my guy is working on turning these into MIDI codes.

Once that is done I'll start creating and testing with CSI and Reaper.

And while I'm busy with that, he will continue the firmware for the OLED screens. So, although there is still some work, we are getting very close.

I appreciate everyone's comments and input.

Thank you.
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Old 10-25-2020, 12:29 PM   #277
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It is clear to me that the screens below will be less obstructed and easier to read and must be the path forward. What do you guys think?
Chiming in with a lone dissenting vote about having the screens below the knobs. I think screens below the knobs would be kind of disorienting. Almost every similar device I've used puts the screens above the corresponding knob, so having them below would feel a little weird. Aside from angling the unit, the other solution I've seen used to get around the problem of obscuring the screens with your fingers is to offset the screens (or just text displayed on them) horizontally from the knobs a little bit, so that the knob lines up with one edege of the screen, rather than being centered with it.
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Old 10-25-2020, 12:39 PM   #278
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Chiming in with a lone dissenting vote about having the screens below the knobs. I think screens below the knobs would be kind of disorienting. Almost every similar device I've used puts the screens above the corresponding knob, so having them below would feel a little weird. Aside from angling the unit, the other solution I've seen used to get around the problem of obscuring the screens with your fingers is to offset the screens (or just text displayed on them) horizontally from the knobs a little bit, so that the knob lines up with one edege of the screen, rather than being centered with it.
Thank you for your input. I think the angle necessary for the user to not obstruct the screen is severe. I'd say higher than 45 degrees and more likely 60 degrees as Geoff has his set up. I truly don't think most people are willing to set up their units this way.

As for putting the screens offset from the encoders, I've thought about it, but I don't think I'm willing to add to the real estate of the unit.

I do agree that having them below will take some getting used to. My Qcon Controller has the name of the buttons below and it always throws me off a little.

As I stated before, I may make two cases. One for those who want the screen below and those who want the screen above. Perhaps, I can satisfy both user groups.
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Old 10-25-2020, 12:53 PM   #279
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Thank you for your input. I think the angle necessary for the user to not obstruct the screen is severe. I'd say higher than 45 degrees and more likely 60 degrees as Geoff has his set up. I truly don't think most people are willing to set up their units this way.

As for putting the screens offset from the encoders, I've thought about it, but I don't think I'm willing to add to the real estate of the unit.

I do agree that having them below will take some getting used to. My Qcon Controller has the name of the buttons below and it always throws me off a little.

As I stated before, I may make two cases. One for those who want the screen below and those who want the screen above. Perhaps, I can satisfy both user groups.
Is it just not possible/practical to build one and offer the ability to flip the text orientation and invert the encoder messages? In thinking if that could be accomplished via the software/firmware, users could pick and you only have to worry about one box.

Example: hold down buttons one and two for 10 seconds then confirm by pushing rotary 1 to flip the unit into upside down mode. Repeat the procedure to go back to right side up mode.
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Old 10-25-2020, 01:02 PM   #280
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Is it just not possible/practical to build one and offer the ability to flip the text orientation and invert the encoder messages? In thinking if that could be accomplished via the software/firmware, users could pick and you only have to worry about one box.
It certainly is, but is not as simple.

One issue is the buttons at the bottom, if you flip the unit, now you have buttons at the top. Most people would not want buttons at the top as they will have to reach further to engage them. I guess it can be a compromise.

The other issue is one of height. I decided that I want the unit to be future proof and I'm hoping to have it be OSC compatible in the future. So I installed an RJ45 jack. Because of the nature of the jack, it adds significant height to the main board inside. Which works out nicely if you make the front of the case be less tall and the back of the case higher to fit the RJ45. This also inherently angles the top surface so it's easier to view the screens. (we are not talking a huge angle, but still, it feels intuitively correct) If you flip the unit, now it's angling in the wrong direction. Not to mention the cables are now coming from the front. Not something most people want.

So as much as we can certainly make the flip in software, the physical attributes of the unit make it awkward to do so.

The beauty is that it's not that difficult to change the case and have the internal pieces adapt to a new layout. And since we are talking about small runs initially, it's not like the price of the cases will differ much. (at least that is my belief now)
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