Amp-sims, How to :confused:

Wolffman · 08-22-2009, 03:51 AM

So how do you guys/girls set up amp-sims to get a good sound, I can't for the life of me get a decent sound from them. I know its possible as i've heard some very good examples of amp-sim sounds posted on the forums.
I've just got the Acmebargig Dickhead & Meathead sims & the poulin lecab & Boogex, i've also got the aradaz, simulAnalog & FreeAmp 3 sims plus some others like juicy77. I also have a bunch of cab impulses.

Wow after writing that it seems i've got all the gear and no idear !!!

I don't use any really highgain metal type sounds, mostly thick clean tones,just broken up blues to classic rock tones. Think fender 65 deluxe reverb or Vox AC30 with an ibanz tube screamer in front,

lovely.

Thats the kind of tone i'm looking for, but i just can't seem to get anything that resembles a good guitar tone. I must be setting up the siginal chain wrong.

I'd really like some fx-chain examples of how you set up and record your amp-sims.

Heres my setup
Telecaster, Ibanez hollow body
RME ff400, this has an instrument input i've been pluging straight into.
DAW, amp-sim cab chain, record armed, monitor input, out to monitors.

Really appreciate any ideas you have.

Cheers.

bfloyd6969 · 08-22-2009, 04:49 AM

I think the tone you are looking for is one of the hardest to get with amp sims. Usually, most amp sims do well with the high gain stuff. However, you can still find these tones, you just need to mix and match. For the in-betwen tones (clean to semi overdrive), I like to use Boogex (set to clean) with the BTE Audio TSS tube screamer. I notice that you have the BTE Audio Juicy 77, so you may already have the TSS. The Juicy 77 is also a good one for that type of tone. I also find that using cabinet impulses are the way to go. Don't just use the default ones that come with the amp, get some other impulses and load them into the amps. You can load any cab impulse into Boogex, and you can also use Boogex as an impluse player with another preamp in front of it. Just turn all the preamp settings to their minimum and you now have a pretty good cam impulse player. Also, LePou just released a cab impluse player that is pretty good...

Dali · 08-22-2009, 05:48 AM

In the ABG line for clean stuff you got Whisper Tube or Tribe...

http://www.acmebargig.com/whisper-tube/

http://www.acmebargig.com/tribe/

Can't tell if you will end up with the tone you're looking for though.

PS: Preampus KnuckleHead, once available from ABG, could also be a possibility.

Dali

Jonas_Eriksson_Swe · 08-22-2009, 08:10 AM

When using a real amp I play my Vox AC-50 and I've had a hard time finding an amp sim that can give me a similar tone. However, I found one that able of producing (other) great tones and that's Studio Devil. there's a free verison avaliable which lacks a cab sim but that's easily solved. (I often use the free Amplitube-X and bypass tha amp, thus only using the cab section of it.)

Hope that helps! Regards,
- Jonas

JohnnyMcFly · 08-22-2009, 08:27 AM

Hey Jonas...Since you are a Vox guy, have you tried our Meat Head out, It is partly based on an AC30/4...Its not an AC30/4 to its entirety but it does contain the notch filter in the power amp like the AC30 does...
KM

scottedog · 08-22-2009, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bfloyd6969

I think the tone you are looking for is one of the hardest to get with amp sims. Usually, most amp sims do well with the high gain stuff. .

Actually I find the opposite true. Most sims I've heard sound like angry bees in a tin when doing high gain stuff. Not very convincing. I have heard some decent clean stuff tho.

Tedwood · 08-22-2009, 09:01 AM

The sounds you are after Wolfman are not easy to get, in fact I don't think they can be got from a single amp sim, unless you count Revalver or Guitar Rig as a single amp sim.

The Pre Stage
To clarify, in order to get the creamy type overdrive without the sandpapery top end that comes ready made in most amp sims you need more stuff in the chain. If you have played with boosters and OD pedals in front of an average guitar amp in real life you begin to get the picture.

What you need more than anything is additional tone-shaping in front of the amp sim. You can use overdrive plugs or even another amp sim in the virtual world and when you add a bit of distortion here it gets nicely smoothed out by the main amp sim

Play with subtractive eq around 3 Khz and a low high or LP filter shelf at 7 Khz and above.

HP filter to taste, but I find around 120 Hz aint a bad place to start.

Then you probably need to shape the mids, it all depends on you guitar. I have an Ibanez semi which prolly doesn't sound too different to yours. On a Tele or the Ibanez the best results are from the bridge pups or both, but the neck pups tend to get a bit muddy.

The Compressor

Okay there's you front end, now you need a compressor too. This makes a world of difference. You want a short attack of 10 - 30 ms . The release should be balanced against the threshold, I find 450 ms works pretty good.

The Amp Sim

Now your amp sim, Meat Head has been released and I have a couple of vox presets that use Meat. The actual Amp sim is the easy bit. you are looking for low gain but high power amp levels. If you need to reduce the level going into the main amp sim you can do that from the "pre" which could be an OD, EQ, or compreesor plug. You won't get these maps to stay clean if you have the input level too high.

The Cab Sim

Most important is the cab sim. I gotta say I can't find better than LePou's. You can't get enough IR's though and they make a huge difference. Once you got your basic sound sorted if you have a nice selection of IR's you can change AC30 into a Tweed Fender or a 4X12 cab with hardly a twiddle.

It doesn't hurt to have another compressor here, or before the Cab sim for finer tuning either

Presets

I was using the Beta of Meat Head, but it's out now so I guess I'll replace the beta and remake my Vox/Tweed amp chains. Then I'll upload them for ya to try.

I hope I have covered the main areas that make it hard to get good small clean combo sounds, if not by all means please ask me WTF do I mean.

BTW - the really good news is if you get good sounds using these tips you are not far away from creating seriously good Classic Rock tones, since they are pretty much the same thing but louder!

Chris_P_Critter · 08-22-2009, 09:54 AM

That's good stuff Ted.

And, I just now realized that I never thanked you for posting the IR's you posted a few days ago... so, THANKS

...sorry for the delayed gratitude my friend

keys · 08-22-2009, 10:41 AM

Hello all,
I am in the same boat as the OP.
i have dloaded meathead and Dickhead and the LeCab's but cant get the creamy sound Ted was referring to.
so I read Ted's post through again and it kind of makes sense, but as I've not used a compressor or noise gate or even eq yet (all midi work so far), I wondered if anyone had a track template or fx chain they could share to get me started please?

I want to make a few sounds...but anything is better than nothing as i dont really know how to start.

1) the creamy blues/classic rock sound mentioned above
2) a crunchy palm muted thud ala Dream Theater
3) super saturated santana lead

...oh and all with free plugs if thats possible!

many thanks, keys.

btw, where do i get IR's and what do they do please?

JohnnyMcFly · 08-22-2009, 11:41 AM

Keys...You should be able to get that classic sound from these heads, but the guy to listen to on that is definately Ted...

So, I'll bow out and I just stopped in to mention that Knuckle Head will be out today guys..A personal Fave of mine

KM

nfpotter · 08-22-2009, 12:00 PM

I often achieve good sounds/tones by combining sims.

Example:

I use the Line 6 Toneport UX2 for I/O on my writing rig. The advantage with the Line 6 stuff is you get Gearbox as a FRONT end, and the UX2 lets you record 2 separate sounds at once, with little to no latency.

So what I'll do is dial in an amp through Gearbox, say for example, a Roland Jazz Chorus. I'll print that to one track, but at the same time (same performance), print another track using the 3/4 output from Gearbox, with NOTHING on (amps, pedals, cabs etc all turned off).

I will then use a sim plugin (like DIG, Amplitube 2, Guitar Rig 2, etc) on the dry-printed track, and tweak the 2 sounds together.

Imagine the possibilities. How about a Jazz Chorus with a little chorus and delay, blended with a Twin with a tad of reverb. Or a balls-out Diezel head matched/blended with a Triple Rec, or Bogner.

Sims are not as good as amps, likely never will be. But with enough tweaking, I've never NOT been able to get good/convincing sounds.

I'm working on a full-length instrumental record. About half of the guitar sounds will be sims, and half will be my VHT rig. Will post some clips when I'm closer to done.

JohnnyMcFly · 08-22-2009, 12:29 PM

nfpotter I'm Looking forward to hearing that...
KM

shogger · 08-22-2009, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolffman

Really appreciate any ideas you have.

Cheers.

Yeah, simple idea: Post a snippet of music with a tone you like and a recording of you playing your guitar in a similar style. Guitar straight to the DAW, no fx on it. And then we could try to help you with a preset or fx chain. How's that?

Shogger

JohnnyMcFly · 08-22-2009, 02:31 PM

Good Idea Shogger
KM

stratman · 08-22-2009, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shogger

Yeah, simple idea: Post a snippet of music with a tone you like and a recording of you playing your guitar in a similar style. Guitar straight to the DAW, no fx on it. And then we could try to help you with a preset or fx chain. How's that?

Shogger

Good idea. I'm strongly in favour of audio examples instead of words.

As well, maybe we could post some of our own clips (dry and processed) and see if it's the sound that Wolffman is looking for. The reason I say this is that sometimes it's the playing style as much as the amp that contributes to the overall sound.

Edit:
Oops, reading through the thread, I've just realised this post might be taken the wrong way.
Just to point out that words are OK as well. Tedwood has written a very well written post and clearly knows a lot more about the subject than me. The great sound of his guitar tones in the music he has posted clearly speaks for itself.

Pete

Tedwood · 08-22-2009, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stratman

Good idea. I'm strongly in favour of audio examples instead of words.....

Pete

"instead of" or as well as Pete?

Some sounds are easy than others to recreate, the loud clean ones are worst of all because the guitar really sings in sympathy with the speakers bringing rich harmonic overtones. In fact I'd go so far as to say it can't be done at low volume. The trick is to try and fool the ears by using a different set of tools

I do think it helps to know what is actually happening with the sound though, and you will need more than just samples to convey that

Ha! Just saw Pete's edit - not much need for this post then

keys · 08-22-2009, 03:51 PM

Just want to say i'm blown away by the sound Meathead and leCab is making now i've put in a ReaComp in front as sugessted by Ted.
Absolutely amazing fun!
Thanks for the plugins Ken, fantastic!
keys.

stratman · 08-22-2009, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tedwood

"instead of" or as well as Pete?

Sorry, I meant 'as well as'. I've just edited my earlier post. I should have read through the thread more carefully.

Pete

Tedwood · 08-22-2009, 04:04 PM

Do yourself a favour and try LePou's Solo C stack if you haven't already keys, it's on the ABG site here http://www.acmebargig.com/canadian-metal-pack/

It's not really meant to do clean and it's not easy to get the Vox tones, but if you set it on clean, put Reacomp in front of it and lower the input so it's nearly clean you can get some really top notch Fender Blackface sounds from it. The impulses you use will make a hell of a difference here, and I tend to add ReaEQ inbetween the head and the cab. It helps with fine tuning the cab colour

Brad · 08-22-2009, 04:15 PM

Ted,

Do you have a track template to share?

Can you tell me what your preferred cab ir's are?

nfpotter · 08-22-2009, 04:47 PM

Where do I get good cab impulses, and where do I put 'em on my PC to use them?

Wolffman · 08-22-2009, 05:12 PM

WOW,I love this forum, its the best!! great response with some very good tips. Theres a lot of posts to reply to so let me say a HUGE THANKYOU to everyone who replied.

Tedwood,
man, thats exactly ! the type of info i was looking for
I can see now why i've been getting less than inspiring sounds as I've just been using a single amp / head into a cabsim mostly.

Shogger
I'll try to post some snippets up over the next couple days, not much spare time atm, you know, work commitments

Thanks to All

Cheers

keys · 08-22-2009, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tedwood

Do yourself a favour and try LePou's Solo C stack if you haven't already keys, it's on the ABG site here http://www.acmebargig.com/canadian-metal-pack/

It's not really meant to do clean and it's not easy to get the Vox tones, but if you set it on clean, put Reacomp in front of it and lower the input so it's nearly clean you can get some really top notch Fender Blackface sounds from it. The impulses you use will make a hell of a difference here, and I tend to add ReaEQ inbetween the head and the cab. It helps with fine tuning the cab colour

Wow, thankyou Ted! Very sweet. I have added Glaceverb on the end and it sounds like Steve Howe in the early days of Yes - briliant. ( Now if only I could play guitar properly..) anyway, I have to stop now my fingers are about to start bleeding (first time with my axe for years). Thanks so much for the tips.
Keys.

bfloyd6969 · 08-22-2009, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tedwood

Do yourself a favour and try LePou's Solo C stack if you haven't already keys, it's on the ABG site here http://www.acmebargig.com/canadian-metal-pack/

It's not really meant to do clean and it's not easy to get the Vox tones, but if you set it on clean, put Reacomp in front of it and lower the input so it's nearly clean you can get some really top notch Fender Blackface sounds from it. The impulses you use will make a hell of a difference here, and I tend to add ReaEQ inbetween the head and the cab. It helps with fine tuning the cab colour

Ok, this is something I haven't been doing yet - so you guys are putting a compressor as the first item in the chain? I never tried that and could be one of the reasons I fight to get a good tight tone...

Wolffman · 08-22-2009, 07:21 PM

Reaper is crashing when I try to load an IR into Lepou's Lecab, 24bit 44.1 stereo IR's.
Anyone else experience this ?
The same IR's load fine in Boogex

bfloyd6969 · 08-22-2009, 09:49 PM

Just played around with MeatHead for the first time. This is a nice amp, hands down! Give this one a try, it nails that in-between tone. I find the Treble Booster works really well with this one. I keep the Treble Booster at about 25% with the frequency all the way down (I think like 80-some hz). Very nice.

Wolffman · 08-24-2009, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shogger

Yeah, simple idea: Post a snippet of music with a tone you like and a recording of you playing your guitar in a similar style. Guitar straight to the DAW, no fx on it. And then we could try to help you with a preset or fx chain. How's that?

Shogger

I haven't had time to record myself yet but here is 4 examples of the kind of tones i'm trying to get. The 2nd & 3rd examples are definately a Telecaster ( which I have ) as i know the guys in the band, but i'm unsure about the other guitars.

https://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/205178/Guitar-tones-.mp3

If anyone wants to put an FX-chain together that approximates any of these sounds that would be FANTASTIC MATE !!

Tedwood, the FX-chain you suggested is a HUGE improvement on the sound i was getting before, as i said I haven't had a lot of time to mess around but a very quick play late last night using ReaEQ, ReaComp, SimulAnlog's tube screamer & Rednef twin then lepou's Lecab ( I found some IR's that didn't crash REAPER when I loaded Lecab

) yeilded the best results i've had with an ampsim yet. Still a ways from what i'd like but, promising.

Cheers

JohnnyMcFly · 08-24-2009, 05:10 AM

Nice tones...Any one of the Perampus line that has the ability to independantly drive the power amp...So any of them that have an HF Gain or Power drive knobs. maybe any of the AC30 sounding Preampus' as well. I think will help achieve that sound...But really IMO there are 2 go to guys with ABG crunch sort of tube breakup sounds, thats Ted Wood and Smudge...These 2 guys would be able to help you get that sound better than I...Also Ted, I am going to build a compressor specifically for placement before these heads...I'm gonna call it "Better Head"
KM

Tedwood · 08-24-2009, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyMcFly

Nice tones...Any one of the Perampus line that has the ability to independantly drive the power amp...So any of them that have an HF Gain or Power drive knobs. maybe any of the AC30 sounding Preampus' as well. I think will help achieve that sound...But really IMO there are 2 go to guys with ABG crunch sort of tube breakup sounds, thats Ted Wood and Smudge...These 2 guys would be able to help you get that sound better than I...Also Ted, I am going to build a compressor specifically for placement before these heads...I'm gonna call it "Better Head"
KM

If you do a no frills clean type head Ken, you could call it Straighter Head

you have to say it out loud to get the joke folks

I am a little bit tied up at the mo Wolfman but I hear your tones. It will take a bit of guesswork as I don't own a Tele, or you could give me a Tele sample recorded straight to work from

These may not be limited to the ABG heads but I won't be using any paid for stuff, not because I don't like paid for stuff, it's just that everybody must be able to download the plugs

JohnnyMcFly · 08-24-2009, 07:23 AM

I worked a little on those tones this morning Ted and got really close using of all things Tamla Head...That will be out this week as well...
KM

Wolffman · 08-24-2009, 07:44 AM

OK Ted, please excuse my awwfull playing but i just worked this out and recorded it right now since i saw your post

and its 12:35 am here so i'm a bit wiery, plus my tele is in bad shape ATM badly worn & buzzing frets, dead strings the lot

its of to the guitar tech in the next couple of weeks. Can't wait any longer.

This is recorded straight in, guitar direct into ff400, nothing else.

I tried to get as close as i could to what the guitar is doing on the 2nd part of the guitar tones example from the previous post.
I know that the second part i'm playing here is a slide but i just played the notes (or close

)

Have fun and thanks a bunch for putting in the time.

https://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/205258/...ones-Tele-.mp3

Cheers

Bubbagump · 08-24-2009, 08:59 AM

Do we have any MP3 samples of yonder plugs? I am no guitar player, so it is nice to hear someone who knows WTF they are doing mess with these things.

stratman · 08-24-2009, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolffman

I haven't had time to record myself yet but here is 4 examples of the kind of tones i'm trying to get. The 2nd & 3rd examples are definately a Telecaster ( which I have ) as i know the guys in the band, but i'm unsure about the other guitars.

https://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/205178/Guitar-tones-.mp3

If anyone wants to put an FX-chain together that approximates any of these sounds that would be FANTASTIC MATE !!

Tedwood, the FX-chain you suggested is a HUGE improvement on the sound i was getting before, as i said I haven't had a lot of time to mess around but a very quick play late last night using ReaEQ, ReaComp, SimulAnlog's tube screamer & Rednef twin then lepou's Lecab ( I found some IR's that didn't crash REAPER when I loaded Lecab

) yeilded the best results i've had with an ampsim yet. Still a ways from what i'd like but, promising.

Cheers

I only get one very short clip. Am I doing something wrong?

edit: Sorry it seems to be OK now. But it took a few attempts to get the full file.

Pete

Tedwood · 08-24-2009, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolffman

If anyone wants to put an FX-chain together that approximates any of these sounds that would be FANTASTIC MATE !!

Cheers

Here's a track template I did with Freeamp Wolfman It's quite close tonewise but not as dynamic as the tone with your mate on, but I think he likes to spank his Tele, and that's how they sound best.

https://stash.reaper.fm/oldsb/205342/...RTrackTemplate

Sometimes there's a problem with the template loading Freeamp, probably a directory or naming issue, if it happens I'll upload the FX file so you can do it manually.

Remember to wack your Tele with a stiff pick near the bridge

BurningSG · 08-24-2009, 12:31 PM

Ken, how about some 'Sweet Creamy' Head for those of us looking for a cleaner smoother overdriven David Gilmour, Carlos Santana sound ???

Thanks for your effort and hard work... it's well appreciated

SG

stratman · 08-24-2009, 01:04 PM

Well I've been at it for 2 hours now and I still can't do better than Tedwood. I'd better stop for a while. The wife is yelling at me.

I shall resume later with headphones.

Pete

JohnnyMcFly · 08-24-2009, 01:21 PM

Burning thats coming tomorrow...It was originally intended to be a Motown amp, but I think you can get the Gilmour sound from it...Its called Tamla Head, well actually I don't know if Tamla is coming tomorrow or Pecker Head is coming tomorrow. Actually I think you can get that sound with Pecker too..

Oh Crap!...Someone is gonna use that as a quote!
KM

shemp · 08-24-2009, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyMcFly

Burning thats coming tomorrow...It was originally intended to be a Motown amp,

Then call it Mo Head.

stratman · 08-24-2009, 04:04 PM

I’ve been playing around with Tedwood’s chain and (for that clip) a couple of possible alternatives to FreeAmp that are promising are Dirthead http://www.ndzeit.org/guitar/dirthead.html on the clean setting and Aradaz crunch http://aradaz.blogspot.com/

Pete

keys · 08-24-2009, 04:08 PM

I'm enjoying these sims so much!

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyMcFly

...Also Ted, I am going to build a compressor specifically for placement before these heads...I'm gonna call it "Better Head"
KM

...how about a tribute... 'TedHead'