Old 09-20-2017, 03:29 AM   #1
drahtwelt
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 3
Default [5.50c] MIDI notes Quantize "Fix overlaps" bug

If there are notes with different Midi channels in the same midi item the [Quantize Events: "Fix overlaps"] options doesn't work correctly.
If a following note has a lower midi channel than there will be a small overlap (but big ehough to confuse "BRSO" or other scripts).

For example 3 midi notes sequences with different midi channel settings after quantization (the 3rd one shows the overlapping):
0: 90 30 5F [Note On] chan 1 note 48 vel 95
1: 80 30 00 [Note Off] chan 1 note 48
2: 90 32 5F [Note On] chan 1 note 50 vel 95
3: 80 32 00 [Note Off] chan 1 note 50

4: 90 30 5F [Note On] chan 1 note 48 vel 95
5: 80 30 00 [Note Off] chan 1 note 48
6: 91 32 5F [Note On] chan 2 note 50 vel 95
7: 81 32 00 [Note Off] chan 2 note 50

8: 91 30 5F [Note On] chan 2 note 48 vel 95
9: 90 32 5F [Note On] chan 1 note 50 vel 95
10: 81 30 00 [Note Off] chan 2 note 48
11: 80 32 00 [Note Off] chan 1 note 50

It seems that quanitizing gives lower midi channels more priority at "Note on" event, which generates overlapping.

I've attached a reaper project and a screenshot from midi editor.
Attached Images
File Type: png Quantizing.PNG (47.7 KB, 27 views)
Attached Files
File Type: rpp Midi-Notes-Channel-Overlap_Bug.RPP (3.9 KB, 19 views)
drahtwelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2017, 03:41 AM   #2
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 15,737
Default

A thought: have you tried manually moving the "wrong " note ons and offs and seeing if you can actually HEAR a difference?
Depending on what ppqn setting your MIDI track is set on, that could easily be 2/512 of a quarter note or less.
Sometimes you have to stop listening with your eyes and follow the Joe Meek maxim: If it sounds good, it IS good.
__________________
UK and USA: Our leaders MAY be buffoons but they are still dangerous buffoons.
ivansc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2017, 05:03 AM   #3
drahtwelt
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
if you can actually HEAR a difference?
It's not a problem of hearing the "Note On" and "Note Off" overlapping becasue the overlapping time is too short for humans (I've never heard it all the years before).

But this overlapping will influence scripts that regard the digital sequence of the midi data: In my case the BRSO tool (http://www.syntheticorchestra.com/articulatereaper/) couldn't set the correct "articulation" of a note with a higher midi channel and plays it with the "articluation" of the former note (with lower midi channel).
Yes, there's a workaround by manualy separate the notes a little bit - but this is not pratcical at composing phase (very slow).

I assume BRSO is not the only script that will have the problem with this overlapping after quantize.
(I wouldn't have a problem with this effect if there would be an "expression map" feature in Reaper ;-) )

Last edited by drahtwelt; 09-20-2017 at 05:09 AM. Reason: just edit updates
drahtwelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2017, 09:26 AM   #4
juliansader
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,176
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
A thought: have you tried manually moving the "wrong " note ons and offs and seeing if you can actually HEAR a difference?
The overlap that drahtwelt is referring to, is not actually an overlap in time, but rather the ordering of events that all fall on exactly the same PPQ.

Last edited by juliansader; 09-20-2017 at 10:34 AM.
juliansader is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2017, 02:23 PM   #5
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Just outside of Glacier National Park
Posts: 10,680
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by juliansader View Post
The overlap that drahtwelt is referring to, is not actually an overlap in time, but rather the ordering of events that all fall on exactly the same PPQ.
So the quantize is putting the end of the notes right in perfect line with the start of the next note? One ppq back on the front note and it's alright, is that it? And this changed with the latest upgrade?

I can understand frustration with this.
Tod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2017, 02:41 PM   #6
ivansc
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Near Cambridge UK and Near Questembert, France
Posts: 15,737
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by juliansader View Post
The overlap that drahtwelt is referring to, is not actually an overlap in time, but rather the ordering of events that all fall on exactly the same PPQ.
Ah! A perennial MIDI problem since I first started using MIDI in the early eighties.

I can remember struggling with event list editors, only to find the MIDI data STILL got scrambled.

Wonder if any of the main contenders still have the same issue. I know Cubase did and, if I remember correctly, the non-audio version of Logic (at least on the PC version)
__________________
UK and USA: Our leaders MAY be buffoons but they are still dangerous buffoons.
ivansc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2017, 03:15 PM   #7
Tod
Human being with feelings
 
Tod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Just outside of Glacier National Park
Posts: 10,680
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ivansc View Post
Ah! A perennial MIDI problem since I first started using MIDI in the early eighties.

I can remember struggling with event list editors, only to find the MIDI data STILL got scrambled.

Wonder if any of the main contenders still have the same issue. I know Cubase did and, if I remember correctly, the non-audio version of Logic (at least on the PC version)
Heh heh, hey old friend, so you started with event editors? I don't remember the exact date but it was at least by 1985 I had my first sequencer, but it was more like what we have now, of course with a whole lot less then we have now, it was called "Sequencer Plus". It started out with a ppq of an 8th note, went to 16th, and then to 48. When Cakewalk finally added a midi editor I opted for that and I think it was 96 ppq. Now I'm using 920 and could make it more.

But I do have a question, I checked out "BRSO" quite a while back, I think it was Breeder that turned me on to it, but I didn't go too far with it because of the way I program instruments.

However, I didn't realize that you couldn't overlap notes? Overlapping notes has always been essential for making midi orchestra sound right? Also now days there are legato libraries the depend on the notes overlapping to perform correctly?

Sorry for sidetracking a little.
Tod is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2017, 08:09 AM   #8
drahtwelt
Human being with feelings
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tod View Post
So the quantize is putting the end of the notes right in perfect line with the start of the next note? One ppq back on the front note and it's alright, is that it? And this changed with the latest upgrade
I don't know if this behavior has changed during the Reaper history - I've just recognize it due to the strange script behavior of "BRSO".
I assume there's no possibility in the MIDI world to put 2 events (Note-ON, Note-OFF) on the same MIDI clock - there can be just one.
And I assume the developer of the Quantize function didn't regard the absolute micro-positioning of following notes because you can't hear it.
The problem is, that scripts and VST-Instruments can "hear" it ;-)

And yes, there are many workarounds possible (by further scripts) to solve any of the strange effects that will occur, but maybe it would be a good idea to fix it at the root.
My proposal would be: If after Quantize ("Fix overlaps" switched on) there are Note-Off and Note-On on the same grid, all Note-Off will set before Note-On.
(The second question would be how to order a Note-Off/On sequence if there are more than just a single note for Note-Off/On? Currently I don't know if there could be a "most meaningful" order regarding lenght or midi-channel - maybe there's none ;-) )
drahtwelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:27 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions Inc.