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Old 04-04-2015, 07:11 AM   #1
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Default Can I/should I switch to Mac mini?

Struggling with my DAW on a Windows 7 machine is getting frustrating. Even though I can fix most IT related problems on a Win or *nix machine, the MS OS is far too dynamic and unreliable for me right now.

So, is there anyone out there who could confirm that the following plugins work on a brand new Mac mini? Soundcard would be my old E-MU 0404, or a Focusrite 2i2 or with similar pricetag.

My list of precious plugins that must survive the dangerous journey to a new os:

EZ Drummer
Native Instruments Session Horns
Native Instruments MM bass
ToneBoosters plugins
2CAudio Aether reverb
Recabinet amp simulator
Camel audio Alchemy
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Old 04-04-2015, 07:16 AM   #2
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I blame the soundcard. I've got an RME 9652 in Win7 and am very solid with 150 tracks and tons of vsts and vstis. A bad soundcard can mike life suck.
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Old 04-04-2015, 07:44 AM   #3
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Dito. I have no problems with Win7x64.

What kind of computer (CPU, RAM, mainboard) do you use atm?
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Old 04-04-2015, 09:08 AM   #4
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Dito. I have no problems with Win7x64.

What kind of computer (CPU, RAM, mainboard) do you use atm?
Win7x64. An Intel 2.8 Ghz and 8 GB RAM. I have also stripped the OS so it´s ultra fast and even heavy Reaper projects run without exhausting the cpu or ram.

I´m not 100% sure but I think my problems began after an automatic .NET upgrade via Windows Update. Should I rather go for a different sound card?
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Old 04-04-2015, 09:13 AM   #5
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What is your current soundcard that is being used where you have these problems ?

Make a backup, format the box, reinstall windows 7 and your apps/plugs. test. If that still fails it's the audio card. Make sure to have the latest drivers. Your pc seem plenty fast enough. I hate formatting but there's nothing better than a clean box to know your status.

Also Win 7 install doesn't need any tweaks to run audio right.

When you get it working get something Acronis True Image and make an image of it so you can experiment and still get back to a solid baseline.
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Old 04-04-2015, 09:31 AM   #6
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What is your current soundcard that is being used where you have these problems ?

Make a backup, format the box, reinstall windows 7 and your apps/plugs. test. If that still fails it's the audio card. Make sure to have the latest drivers. Your pc seem plenty fast enough. I hate formatting but there's nothing better than a clean box to know your status.

Also Win 7 install doesn't need any tweaks to run audio right.

When you get it working get something Acronis True Image and make an image of it so you can experiment and still get back to a solid baseline.
Thanks for the tips. It´s a fresh install since ~1 month back and the problems are pretty much the same (even though my PC is even more slim now). I use an E-MU 0404 USB interface, which in itself is ok...but the newest drivers are from 2010.

Some wierd problems though. In control panel, sound card input could not be set to anything but 44.1khz. Reinstalling drivers fixed that.
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Old 04-04-2015, 09:39 AM   #7
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Having Reaper in the background (not playing any audio) and just surfing the forum, I can see the Asio4all status icon going red (see attachement) from time to time.

For what reason I don´t know, but this is a real problem for me..
Attached Images
File Type: jpg asio4all_red.jpg (5.6 KB, 185 views)
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Old 04-04-2015, 11:17 AM   #8
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Make sure to get the DPC latency checker and get any drivers out that are hosing it up. Also read up on the forums about your card. Others here might have more tips on USB audio.

http://forums.creative.com/archive/i...?t-559770.html

https://www.google.com/search?source...69i57.2127j0j1
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Old 04-04-2015, 12:03 PM   #9
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Big thanks! I´ll dive in to it and see what it brings..

DPC latency checker is well under the green threshold. I have really adjusted this pc to be fast and only have minimum software installed. Still, I´ll go ahead and test all my USB ports.
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Old 04-04-2015, 12:06 PM   #10
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This is mine while copying 2 streams of files, playing music in foobar 2000, 2 mirc chat sessions open and Reaper open and idling.

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Old 04-04-2015, 01:54 PM   #11
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Mine is slightly higher, but still green. I´ve tried different USB ports and also updated SATA and USB drivers. No change.

Despite the latency check: I did manage to complete 28 songs over the past three years on this PC without a single problem. But now...

I´m open for the fact that some circuits or whatever on my mainboard is going for retirement. But as I know Windows OS, any change in the OS with patches or upgrades of .NET could probably throw a weak driver off the cliff. I guess thats what we get with computers that can do "everything". (or mainboards that costs $1 to produce)
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Old 04-04-2015, 01:58 PM   #12
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have you tried turning off any antivirus, malwarebytes. On my box malwarebytes hoses my latency up. I doubt it it hardware related.

format c:, install win7, turn off auto updates, install basic drivers, backup with Acronis True Image. Test.
Add things, test, add more things, test, backup along the way is the only way I know to do it.
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Old 04-04-2015, 03:03 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by lofven View Post
Struggling with my DAW on a Windows 7 machine is getting frustrating. Even though I can fix most IT related problems on a Win or *nix machine, the MS OS is far too dynamic and unreliable for me right now.

So, is there anyone out there who could confirm that the following plugins work on a brand new Mac mini? Soundcard would be my old E-MU 0404, or a Focusrite 2i2 or with similar pricetag.

My list of precious plugins that must survive the dangerous journey to a new os:

EZ Drummer
Native Instruments Session Horns
Native Instruments MM bass
ToneBoosters plugins
2CAudio Aether reverb
Recabinet amp simulator
Camel audio Alchemy


Disclaimer: I've only drank the Apple (and in recent years Reaper) koolaid.
I only ever had my hands on a Windows machine at a couple day jobs a few years back before they (allegedly) became capable of running audio apps.

It looks to me that there are a few expert level Windows users on this forum that claim to have every bit the stability and capability of OSX users and I believe them.

Looks like a bit of a trade off these days. You able to research every piece of hardware you buy and verify the OS and other apps don't have a conflict and OK with having to resell expensive bits when an incompatibility comes up? Fine with installing kernel extension stuff with the OS? It looks to me like you could end up spending a lot more time and money with Windows if the wind isn't blowing from the right direction.

Things can come up with OSX too of course. Not nearly as often and not requiring the level of IT expertise as Windows I don't believe. I've never, for example, discovered a conflict with a graphics card and audio interface that made me go out and buy a different graphics card, or the firewire chipset was incompatible with the interface, or anything on that level.

The forum posts I see about help with various random Windows issues are just ridiculous! Pretty much seals the deal that I'd never even consider it even if Apple stopped making computers tomorrow. Someone else would step in and fill the gap. People still need full computers for stuff and things (as opposed to smartphones and tablets).

Yes I know 50% of those are operator error. And there are a few OSX posts with people having genuine issues too.

I can tell you that Reaper in OSX is really amazingly stable and productive. It was a big upgrade from ProtoolsHD for me. It came literally right out of the box able to run live sound. It runs very stable at very low latency (when needed for live work) and there's plenty of headroom to load up on plugins and still stay under 11ms total system latency. Low latency is only relevant for live work of course (live sound or live performance). On the other end with studio work, I only had to mess with a few preference settings to accommodate 3rd party plugins when my track count approached 200 tracks of HD audio.


The show stopper for you with a Mac Mini might be the need for PCI slots. (You mentioned wanting to go to a PCI card audio interface eventually.) No PCI slots on the Mac Mini. You'd have to get a thunderbolt PCI cage which sounds like an expensive hassle to me. I'd pick up a couple year old Mac Pro if I needed PCI slots.

The USB interfaces you mentioned would be no problem though.

I don't have any of the 3rd party plugins you mentioned unfortunately. I'd research that, then decide if you really need to go PCI and then look at available machines.
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Old 04-04-2015, 03:08 PM   #14
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Have you changed anything in the BIOS? My machine works like a charm since I've changed the RAM speed to the specs of the manufacturer (and didn't rely on the "auto" setting of the mainboard)!

Interesting side note: Especially the brand new Mac minis aren't really suitable for audio, since they throttle the CPU speed at a certain (temperature? load?) threshold!
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Old 04-04-2015, 03:13 PM   #15
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The show stopper for you with a Mac Mini might be the need for PCI slots. (You mentioned wanting to go to a PCI card audio interface eventually.) No PCI slots on the Mac Mini. You'd have to get a thunderbolt PCI cage which sounds like an expensive hassle to me. I'd pick up a couple year old Mac Pro if I needed PCI slots.

The USB interfaces you mentioned would be no problem though.

I don't have any of the 3rd party plugins you mentioned unfortunately. I'd research that, then decide if you really need to go PCI and then look at available machines.
Thanks serr. Maybe a misunderstanding about PCI card. If I go mac, I would probably start with a Focusrite card with firewire, that can run Thunderbolt via adapter. That way, I can have a first test on Win7 and see if the card itself is the issue. Troubleshooting by $...

I agree on the OS comments. For me Win7 is pretty amazing with all the stuff it can do, but I consider it to be poor by design and therefore not reliable. I favor Linux, but I´m not willing to write my own drivers or spend months with configs. And even Linux have become less reliable nowadays..
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Old 04-04-2015, 03:20 PM   #16
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have you tried turning off any antivirus, malwarebytes. On my box malwarebytes hoses my latency up. I doubt it it hardware related.

format c:, install win7, turn off auto updates, install basic drivers, backup with Acronis True Image. Test.
Add things, test, add more things, test, backup along the way is the only way I know to do it.
Yes I might do another fresh install before going nuts with my creditcard. Regarding the status of my win7: My daytime job is in IT security. I have done a thorough job in steering what processes are allowed to start at bootup. Sysinternals tools are a great way to acheive this. I´m running G DATA antivirus, set to minimum interference with the computer.

The real threat to my computer now is Windows update. In the "real world" any update must be tested and certified before applied. I probably should do that, but it´s practically a full time job.
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Old 04-04-2015, 03:40 PM   #17
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Win7 really doesn't need tweaking so don't spend a lot of time on it. I bet a format will get you back in hours. Turn off Antivirus and Spyware software when testing. My default templates first track is named "turn off malwarebytes".
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Old 04-04-2015, 04:34 PM   #18
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Maybe a misunderstanding about PCI card. If I go mac, I would probably start with a Focusrite card with firewire, that can run Thunderbolt via adapter. That way, I can have a first test on Win7 and see if the card itself is the issue.
Here's the deal:

PCI card based audio interfaces are either entirely a PCI card (ie. the entire audio interface is the card) or they use a PCI card for the connection to the computer and a proprietary cable from the PCI card to the audio interface box itself (NOT anything standard like firewire, thunderbolt, or USB even if they use the same cable/connector).

Or are you just calling every audio interface a "sound card"?
Just making sure you aren't expecting PCI slots in the Mini.

You might consider a used Mac 1 - 3 years old. Buy at street prices. Sell at street prices.

Last edited by serr; 04-04-2015 at 06:21 PM.
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Old 04-05-2015, 01:49 AM   #19
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Here's the deal:
Or are you just calling every audio interface a "sound card"?
Just making sure you aren't expecting PCI slots in the Mini.
Yes

Sorry for the confusion.
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Old 04-05-2015, 03:17 AM   #20
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Having Reaper in the background (not playing any audio) and just surfing the forum, I can see the Asio4all status icon going red (see attachement) from time to time.

For what reason I don´t know, but this is a real problem for me..
There's your problem right there..

WHY are you using Asio4all?? It's the biggest pile of cr*p there is and it will most certainly contribute to instability and other issues.

A clean WIN7 install should not cause any issues at all and there is _no_ need to use Asio4All.

Using older audio interfaces with Mac may be an issue as there have been several cases where those are simply abandoned in later versions of OS X as they would require new drivers which are never provided.

In all of this thread I still have to find a complete list of the specifications of your system:

Which CPU?
Is this a prefab system or did you build it yourself?
8GB of what kind of RAM?
What Soundcard (you say PCI but it seems you're no sure)

Again, Asio4All adds nothing to any modern day soundcard it's a relic of a far, far away past and should be banned IMO.

Oh and FireWire is overrated really on today's hardware. A proper USB2 interface will do just fine for the type of interfaces you seem to want to use.
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Old 04-05-2015, 07:11 AM   #21
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There's your problem right there..

WHY are you using Asio4all?? It's the biggest pile of cr*p there is and it will most certainly contribute to instability and other issues.

A clean WIN7 install should not cause any issues at all and there is _no_ need to use Asio4All.

Using older audio interfaces with Mac may be an issue as there have been several cases where those are simply abandoned in later versions of OS X as they would require new drivers which are never provided.

In all of this thread I still have to find a complete list of the specifications of your system:

Which CPU?
Is this a prefab system or did you build it yourself?
8GB of what kind of RAM?
What Soundcard (you say PCI but it seems you're no sure)

Again, Asio4All adds nothing to any modern day soundcard it's a relic of a far, far away past and should be banned IMO.

Oh and FireWire is overrated really on today's hardware. A proper USB2 interface will do just fine for the type of interfaces you seem to want to use.
I have The EMU 0404 USB with crappy drivers. Thats why I use asio4all. I havent had a change in my setup for over 3 years, thats why I cant understand the problem. Im reinstalling right now .
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Old 04-05-2015, 08:02 AM   #22
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I have The EMU 0404 USB with crappy drivers. That's why I use asio4all.
You'd be _much_ better off using kx project which has ASIO support built in.
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Old 04-05-2015, 09:36 AM   #23
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You'd be _much_ better off using kx project which has ASIO support built in.
kx doesn't support EMU 0404 USB, just the pci emu10k1 variants.

@OP: As many have suggested, ditch the 0404... I used to use one in the XP days it worked fine in that era but isn't working properly in x64 windows and OS X.

Even a cheap Presonus Audiobox usb is 10x more stable than the 0404 in OS X, but don't buy one for Windows, its drivers suck
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Old 04-05-2015, 09:53 AM   #24
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kx doesn't support EMU 0404 USB, just the pci emu10k1 variants.
Just saw that it support the PCI version but not the USB one.. shame..
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Old 04-05-2015, 10:13 AM   #25
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Even a cheap Presonus Audiobox usb is 10x more stable than the 0404 in OS X, but don't buy one for Windows, its drivers suck
Of course the chances are that the firmware/drivers are either equally or more sucky on OSX...

http://www.dawbench.com/win7-v-osx-1.htm

Holy moly - look at that awful OSX low latency performance.
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Old 04-05-2015, 01:50 PM   #26
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So I´ve pretty much decided that a new audio interface is the next step.

Either Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 or Saffire Pro 24.

Is the Saffire Pro 24 of better quality than the Scarlett? I dont need more inputs/outputs than what the Scarlett offers, and with the Saffire I also need to install a Firewire PCI card as I have no Firewire inputs in my PC.

I´m willing to pay for a Saffire, but only if theres a known difference in quality in the hardware and drivers..
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Old 04-05-2015, 02:17 PM   #27
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Of course the chances are that the firmware/drivers are either equally or more sucky on OSX...

http://www.dawbench.com/win7-v-osx-1.htm

Holy moly - look at that awful OSX low latency performance.
Yes, Presonus have bad drivers that's why I said it wasn't good enough for Win7. It is class compliant so it doesn't need any drivers in OS X and works well enough in it.
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Old 04-05-2015, 02:19 PM   #28
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Either Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 or Saffire Pro 24.
The 2i2 is just fine for what it offers and if you do not need more than it will suit you well. The Saffire is more feature rich anyway so it's really no comparison.

Sound quality wise I doubt you'll be much better off with the Saffire unless you use the mics that may benefit from the better mic pre.

I'd read the SOS reviews and go from there
http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep1...e-scarlett.htm
https://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug...ffirepro24.htm
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Old 04-05-2015, 04:15 PM   #29
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Yes, Presonus have bad drivers that's why I said it wasn't good enough for Win7. It is class compliant so it doesn't need any drivers in OS X and works well enough in it.
I did say firmware as well and since Mac users are having issues too it doesn't seem specific to Win driver implementation. They still have to made it talk UAC2 for Core Audio. Still it works for some Win and Mac users so I suppose that fits the definition of it "just works".
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Old 04-05-2015, 10:49 PM   #30
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So I´ve pretty much decided that a new audio interface is the next step.

Either Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 or Saffire Pro 24.

Is the Saffire Pro 24 of better quality than the Scarlett? I dont need more inputs/outputs than what the Scarlett offers, and with the Saffire I also need to install a Firewire PCI card as I have no Firewire inputs in my PC.

I´m willing to pay for a Saffire, but only if theres a known difference in quality in the hardware and drivers..
If you only need 2 mic preamps, the Apogee Duet is a lot of bang for the buck. The mic preamps and the converters would be very obviously better sounding than the Focusrite stuff. You can find used Duets for $200.
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Old 04-09-2015, 03:41 AM   #31
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If you only need 2 mic preamps, the Apogee Duet is a lot of bang for the buck.
Downside is, that this is a Mac only interface.

Let me repeat my recommendation of the parallel Windows thread ... open the Window, throw out that crappy old EMU and buy an interface with good drivers, that will work with both, Windows and OSX.

This way you can decide later, if you want to stay with Windows or switch to a Mac.

But I'm pretty sure, that you will stay with Windows, which works fine with a nice interface and good ASIO drivers.

It might make sense to open a dedicated thread recarding the interface search ... btw ... above hint regarding preamp quality is pretty good.
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Old 04-09-2015, 04:10 AM   #32
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< $300 rme 9652 HDSP

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw...+hdsp&_sacat=0
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Old 04-09-2015, 04:50 AM   #33
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Even a cheap Presonus Audiobox usb is 10x more stable than the 0404 in OS X, but don't buy one for Windows, its drivers suck
Mine seems to work just fine. I'm curious in which scenarios this is a problem?
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Old 04-09-2015, 12:11 PM   #34
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This thread is excellent evidence as to why you aught to switch to OSX.

Anyway, I run Reaper on an older Mini, I use some NI tools (not the ones you've listed, though) as well as EZDrummer, and have no issues. It runs 8G ram and I use a USB 2 Tascam interface as my primary input. I've got a couple of aggregate devices set up, though, as I'll occasionally borrow another external interface if I need more inputs. In fact, my only complaint with the Mini is the lack of USB/Firewire ports. The new Mac Pros look really, really, tasty in that regard.

What is this "sound card" thing you guys keep talking about?
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Old 04-09-2015, 12:21 PM   #35
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Buy overpriced hardware? Not. I'll keep making hits on Windows thank you with my solid rme 9652.

Quote:
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This thread is excellent evidence as to why you aught to switch to OSX.

Anyway, I run Reaper on an older Mini, I use some NI tools (not the ones you've listed, though) as well as EZDrummer, and have no issues. It runs 8G ram and I use a USB 2 Tascam interface as my primary input. I've got a couple of aggregate devices set up, though, as I'll occasionally borrow another external interface if I need more inputs. In fact, my only complaint with the Mini is the lack of USB/Firewire ports. The new Mac Pros look really, really, tasty in that regard.

What is this "sound card" thing you guys keep talking about?
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Old 04-09-2015, 12:39 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Coachz View Post
Buy overpriced hardware? Not. I'll keep making hits on Windows thank you with my solid rme 9652.
Windows makes sense if your time is worth nothing. The amount of time I've spent fiddling with sound cards, ASIO settings, drivers, and other non-music related crap since ridding myself of Windows is exactly 0.

And as far as hardware... a comparable Windows machine is just about as expensive as a Mac - and more if you're talking about something competitive with the Macbook Pro line. They're only cheaper if you're buying low grade hardware, something Apple doesn't ship.
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Old 04-09-2015, 12:51 PM   #37
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Here is the thing
I have run straight PC computers with Windows 7 Pro since Windows 7 came on stream
I have had zero problems.
Same as Jerome only not Mac

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Old 04-09-2015, 12:53 PM   #38
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I should also include the fact that I run a firewire interface with zero problems as well.......
What have I done right?

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Old 04-09-2015, 01:45 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by jerome_oneil View Post
Windows makes sense if your time is worth nothing. The amount of time I've spent fiddling with sound cards, ASIO settings, drivers, and other non-music related crap since ridding myself of Windows is exactly 0.

And as far as hardware... a comparable Windows machine is just about as expensive as a Mac - and more if you're talking about something competitive with the Macbook Pro line. They're only cheaper if you're buying low grade hardware, something Apple doesn't ship.
A McMini (sic) is low grade hardware - it's a bunch of laptop components in a shiny box. So to compare cost with an equivalent PC, make sure the "i5" is compared to an cheapo desktop i3 (fabricated by the same company) or bargain basement AMD - for example.

As for the new McPros, it really doesn't make sense spending all of that money on video hardware for running audio applications. So whilst a like for like shows that they aren't terrible value compared to the PC equivalent (can't exactly match video model), there really isn't any point buying the PC equivalent in the first place (for audio)!

Then there is the new McBook, which now has the same low power processor as the Asus T300 Chi Windows tablet hybrid. Not the best choice on either platform for audio, but the Transformer does the same stuff for less money and saves buying an iPad too.

Which leaves the McBook Pro - "McMini with a screen". At least it's not pretending to be anything other than a laptop with a relatively poorly performing processor. Good laptops though - tad pricey of course.

----------------

You'll see that the OP tinkers with his PC, and tinkering with a Mac will result in possibly the same situation. I am a tinkerer too, but haven't touched Windows itself since v7 - there is no need. OTB it performs better at low latencies than OSX so... na na na na na na!

As far as old hardware/programs are concerned, at least you have a fighting chance getting them to work in Windows. Apple just drops support for stuff and breaks other stuff as they stumble off into their own version of a future which apparently doesn't have any sensible choices for a desktop DAW.

But yeah, Windows 98/XP... 15 years ago... shit like that... mmm bad.
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Old 04-09-2015, 01:56 PM   #40
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I've used REAPER with Windows for the last few years, from Windows 7 to 8.1 on several different computers with several interfaces and I have had very few serious issues and I don't tinker or tweak anything. I think this whole "Windows is difficult, broken and has viruses" is hearsay from the nineties.
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