Old 10-07-2019, 05:36 PM   #1
Edgemeal
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Default v5.983+dev1007 - October 7 2019

v5.983+dev1007 - October 7 2019
+ Actions: add action to set media item play rate from user-supplied source media tempo
+ Actions: add meta-actions to set relative CC value based on next action toggle state/armed state
+ Freeze: fix unfreeze of duplicated folder tracks [t=225458]
+ MIDI editor: fix incorrect CC marquee selection corner case [t=225839]
+ MIDI editor: in note velocity lane, mouse edits that would erase CCs will reset velocity to default
+ MIDI editor: set new default note velocity when editing in velocity lane
+ Peaks: fix spectral peaks on items whose folder parents prohibit spectral peaks [t=225766]
+ macOS: remove builtin Mojave tab actions from view menu
+ macOS: workaround Mojave bug that causes crashes with certain menu customizations [p=2188125]
# Dynamic Split: efficiency improvements
# Dynamic Split: gate processing improvements
# Ruler: fix time signature marker flickering on mouse hover on macOS

Full changelog / Latest pre-releases
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Old 10-07-2019, 06:41 PM   #2
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Default Devs!

Once again you guys Rock!!!!

Thank you for for all the hard work in the most recent releases and for listening to your user base.
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Old 10-07-2019, 09:21 PM   #3
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+ MIDI editor: fix incorrect CC marquee selection corner case [t=225839]
+ MIDI editor: in note velocity lane, mouse edits that would erase CCs will reset velocity to default
+ MIDI editor: set new default note velocity when editing in velocity lane
Yes, thank you for the quick delivery for these.

Now how about adding the ability to use actions, custom actions, and scripts, that would really make the mouse modifiers special.
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Old 10-08-2019, 03:47 AM   #4
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Yes, I don’t wanna sound ungrateful, but separate mouse modifiers for velocity would satisfy all use cases (eraser = delete note, reset velocity to default value...).
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Old 10-08-2019, 04:26 AM   #5
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+ Peaks: fix spectral peaks on items whose folder parents prohibit spectral peaks [t=225766]
So far, so good ! thx !
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Old 10-08-2019, 04:28 AM   #6
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first of all Thank you so very much for the MIDI love and the quick response.
tons of appreciation!

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+ MIDI editor: in note velocity lane, mouse edits that would erase CCs will reset velocity to default
I believe this acion should be seperated from the one below (+ MIDI editor:set new default note velocity when editing in velocity lane-> for this i have a solution below...).
so there will be a fixed reset which maybe could be set by the user in order to get back to a fixed starting point.





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+ MIDI editor: set new default note velocity when editing in velocity lane
this would work better if for example using Shift (whatever the user choose) + drag to set horizontal line of velocities (for the selected notes) to where the first mouse click was before dragging. this way you won't need to adjust anything before you drag. example below:





there should also be a choose-able actions so we could choose to effect only selected notes/ or all notes.

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Originally Posted by Tod View Post
Now how about adding the ability to use actions, custom actions, and scripts, that would really make the mouse modifiers special.
I agree with Tod and Stevie (and probably everyone i guess) regarding the mouse modifiers for velocity (and everything), this would really satisfy most users.

Last edited by Reflected; 10-08-2019 at 04:43 AM.
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Old 10-08-2019, 08:02 AM   #7
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I'm very much against changing the function of delete to reset. At the very least, it should be an option. The default for delete in the velocity lane should be delete note event, not reset velocity.

I'm certainly not against a reset option, but usurping delete to do it goes against established norm. Further, it removes a very easy way to marquee select events and delete them and leaves only a more stringent method of marquee selecting in the piano roll itself.

IMHO the best solution here is give the velocity lane it's own mouse modifiers separate from CC (they are different animals anyway) and allow scripts to be used for all mouse modifiers, not just some of them.

This solves two issues. One, it makes mouse modifiers consistent across the board and two, allows users to configure them to taste. This seems a much better solution to me than changing what delete actually does. Changing delete to something other than delete only confuses things and takes away basic functionality which I don't think is ever a good idea.
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Old 10-08-2019, 08:04 AM   #8
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I'm very much against changing the function of delete to reset. At the very least, it should be an option. The default for delete in the velocity lane should be delete note event, not reset velocity.

I'm certainly not against a reset option, but usurping delete to do it goes against established norm. Further, it removes a very easy way to marquee select events and delete them and leaves only a more stringent method of marquee selecting in the piano roll itself.
Marquee select the velocities and press delete?
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Old 10-08-2019, 08:28 AM   #9
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Marquee select the velocities and press delete?
Sorry, I should have said mouseover select, not marquee select. In the piano roll, notes can be all over the place. In the velocity lane, it's much easier to do so. At the very least, the default behavior of delete/erase should be to delete and reset an option.

But at the end of the day, making delete not actually delete is unintuitive. Not to mention you are making delete function differently in different parts of the program. That's never good form. As opposed to simply adding another category for mouse modifiers so that the velocity lane can have its own.
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Old 10-08-2019, 08:32 AM   #10
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IMHO the best solution here is give the velocity lane it's own mouse modifiers separate from CC (they are different animals anyway) and allow scripts to be used for all mouse modifiers, not just some of them.
+1 to this
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Old 10-08-2019, 08:52 AM   #11
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But at the end of the day, making delete not actually delete is unintuitive. Not to mention you are making delete function differently in different parts of the program. That's never good form. As opposed to simply adding another category for mouse modifiers so that the velocity lane can have its own.
I agree with this.
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Old 10-08-2019, 08:55 AM   #12
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What other behaviors would people want to be different between CC and velocities? It seems like everything but "erase" should either act the same in both contexts (in which case it would be annoying to have to change the behavior in two places instead of one), or is not applicable at all in the velocity lane.

We could support the erase modifier actually deleting notes in the velocity lane just by adding a modifier, not necessarily a whole new context.

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Old 10-08-2019, 08:59 AM   #13
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But at the end of the day, making delete not actually delete is unintuitive. Not to mention you are making delete function differently in different parts of the program. That's never good form. As opposed to simply adding another category for mouse modifiers so that the velocity lane can have its own.
Agreed. I was surprised that Reaper broke industry norms on this one. Using an eraser to set a default velocity is counter intuitive and inconsistent with the eraser's established purpose and functionality. It is also my opinion that this should be relegated to another mouse tool or modifier key. At the very least a user preference.

As mentioned earlier in the thread, I don't want to sound ungrateful for all the new features and prolific updates (you guys ROCK), but this one feels wrong for all sorts of reasons.
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Old 10-08-2019, 09:11 AM   #14
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What other behaviors would people want to be different between CC and velocities? It seems like everything but "erase" should either act the same in both contexts (in which case it would be annoying to have to change the behavior in two places instead of one), or is not applicable at all in the velocity lane.

We could support the erase modifier actually deleting notes in the velocity lane just by adding a modifier, not necessarily a whole new context.
Thanks Schwa for being so engaged in this passionate topic.

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We could support the erase modifier actually deleting notes in the velocity lane just by adding a modifier, not necessarily a whole new context.
I would say that it should be the other way around. The eraser tool should erase velocities and a modifier might "reset" the velocity. Perhaps the line tool with a modifier would reset the velocity to a user defined default velocity. That would seem like a more intuitive tool and usage.

I have to run off right now... but I'll put on my thinking cap with regards to desired differences between CC and Velocity behaviors.
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Old 10-08-2019, 09:15 AM   #15
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I would say that it should be the other way around. The eraser tool should erase velocities and a modifier might "reset" the velocity. Perhaps the line tool with a modifier would reset the velocity to a user defined default velocity. That would seem like a more intuitive tool and usage.
I agree that the eraser tool should erase the event by default and that a modifier should be used for reset.
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Old 10-08-2019, 09:37 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Klangfarben View Post

IMHO the best solution here is give the velocity lane it's own mouse modifiers separate from CC (they are different animals anyway) and allow scripts to be used for all mouse modifiers, not just some of them.
+1 to this
I don't think this is a good idea, and would unnecessarily complicate things. The velocity and CC lanes are practically cloned animals, as far as I can see, and I would prefer to use the same standard actions in all lanes.

* The only difference is that new CCs can be inserted by drawing in the CC lane whereas new velocities/notes cannot. However, mouse modifier actions such as "Draw/edit" intelligently adapt to whether the mouse is over a CC or velocity lane (or Text, Sysex, etc).

* We already have a "CC segment" context that is specific to CC envelopes;

* Sysex/Text, Bank/Program, and Notation lanes are much more different from CC lanes than velocity is.
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Old 10-08-2019, 09:37 AM   #17
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What other behaviors would people want to be different between CC and velocities? It seems like everything but "erase" should either act the same in both contexts (in which case it would be annoying to have to change the behavior in two places instead of one), or is not applicable at all in the velocity lane.
This is what I propose for the velocity lane:

1) Eraser tool erases event by default
2) Create a separate mouse modifier for Velocity Lane (different than CC Lane)
3) Allow both left click and left drag modifiers (separate as opposed to combined)
4) For both left click and left drag modifiers, allow actions to be selected. This should also apply to CC lane mouse modifiers (ideally all mouse modifiers...)

This in my opinion is a better implementation because it satisfies all use cases. User wants to reset instead of erase? Change the default left click mouse modifier. User wants reset to reset to a specific velocity? Set a different modifier key in the mouse modifiers. User wants to use a velocity script for more advanced editing?Set a modifier to an action in the action list.

In this way, erase will still erase by default as it should. You will not have to make different options or prefs for different use cases. The user selects what they want and existing standards are kept. Everyone is happy. Nothing gets convoluted or messy.
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Old 10-08-2019, 09:38 AM   #18
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Agreed too. Erase should erase, another modifier should default. And I think the current implementation where tweaked velocity value becomes the new default makes sense.
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Old 10-08-2019, 09:40 AM   #19
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4) For both left click and left drag modifiers, allow actions to be selected. This should also apply to CC lane mouse modifiers (ideally all mouse modifiers...)
Wouldn't there be a pretty big problem if we had custom actions on "drag" modifiers? Like calling the script on every mouse position refresh (which can be hundreds of times per second)... sounds like a huge can of worms to me.

I think that might actually be the main reason there IS no way to add custom actions to drag modifiers. There's plenty of things that could go wrong.
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Old 10-08-2019, 09:40 AM   #20
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I would say that it should be the other way around. The eraser tool should erase velocities and a modifier might "reset" the velocity. Perhaps the line tool with a modifier would reset the velocity to a user defined default velocity. That would seem like a more intuitive tool and usage.
I agree.

I have often wanted to delete notes via the velocity lane, but I have never needed to "reset" velocity (whatever "reset" may mean in this context). A "reset" mouse modifier tool might be useful for the pitch lane too.
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Old 10-08-2019, 09:47 AM   #21
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Wouldn't there be a pretty big problem if we had custom actions on "drag" modifiers? Like calling the script on every mouse position refresh (which can be hundreds of times per second)... sounds like a huge can of worms to me.

I think that might actually be the main reason there IS no way to add custom actions to drag modifiers. There's plenty of things that could go wrong.
Does REAPER distinguish between single clicks and drags in these contexts?

If REAPER does, then single-clicks should run the script once, and drags should call the script once when it starts, and then again when the mouse is lifted. This way, deferred (continuously running) scripts can easily terminate when the mouse is lifted.

If REAPER does not, then both single-click and drag actions should just call the script once. (The script can use ReaScriptAPI functions to detect when the mouse is lifted.)
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Old 10-08-2019, 09:50 AM   #22
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The velocity and CC lanes are practically cloned animals, as far as I can see, and I would prefer to use the same standard actions in all lanes.
Two responses to this:

One, they are very different animals. CC information is completely independent of note events. Velocity is always tied to note events. In a CC lane, deleting/editing information never affects note events. In the velocity lane it always affects note events. So the editing processes are always going to be different animals. For example, how often are you going to want to reset CC to an original value in the CC lane? Probably not much. In the velocity lane? That is more critical. Setting all velocities to the same value? Much more critical in the velocity lane than the CC lane. Just because they share some functions does not mean they aren't different animals. They are and they should be treated that way.

Two, if you want to have the same standard actions in the velocity lane vs other CC lanes, you can absolutely do that. Just make the modifiers the same in the CC Lane mouse modifiers and the Velocity lane modifiers. It will function exactly the same. And you only have to set it once and be done. Every other way of trying to solve this is going to get convoluted and overly complicated. This doesn't. It is simply adding another mouse modifier (among many, many other mouse modifier categories) and allowing the user to dictate the behavior. Want it to be the exact same behavior as the CC lanes? Just set it that way. Want it to be different? Set it different.
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Old 10-08-2019, 10:53 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Klangfarben View Post
Two responses to this:

One, they are very different animals. CC information is completely independent of note events. Velocity is always tied to note events. In a CC lane, deleting/editing information never affects note events. In the velocity lane it always affects note events. So the editing processes are always going to be different animals. For example, how often are you going to want to reset CC to an original value in the CC lane? Probably not much. In the velocity lane? That is more critical. Setting all velocities to the same value? Much more critical in the velocity lane than the CC lane. Just because they share some functions does not mean they aren't different animals. They are and they should be treated that way.

Two, if you want to have the same standard actions in the velocity lane vs other CC lanes, you can absolutely do that. Just make the modifiers the same in the CC Lane mouse modifiers and the Velocity lane modifiers. It will function exactly the same. And you only have to set it once and be done. Every other way of trying to solve this is going to get convoluted and overly complicated. This doesn't. It is simply adding another mouse modifier (among many, many other mouse modifier categories) and allowing the user to dictate the behavior. Want it to be the exact same behavior as the CC lanes? Just set it that way. Want it to be different? Set it different.
Good points.

2 other differences between Velocities and CCs are that Velocities are polyphonic and CCs aren't -- by this I mean you can't have multiple CC points at the same exact time whereas you can have multiple Velocities... like on a chord. Also, Velocities are never interpolated since they are not continuous (and are not continuous controllers)... whereas CCs can be.

Having an eraser tool to erase (say) a single stacked velocity at a time would be an expected behavior IMHO.
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Old 10-08-2019, 10:57 AM   #24
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I agree with both, Klangfarben and Julian.

Same as Julian, I also tried, out of an intuitive impulse, to vertically delete notes using the velocity lane. But it never worked. Assigning "reset to default value" to the eraser doesn't make it more intuitive, though.

However, an additional "reset modifier" would make a lot of sense.

Now to get back to Klangfarben's point:
Wouldn't it be in fact easier to separate the velocity from CCs?
I'm not a huge fan of combined mouse modifiers, because they take away the freedom of configurability.

Best example for this is the double click action for the "media item". It's called:
MIDI: open in editor, Subprojects: open project, Audio: show media item properties.

Once you manually assign a custom action/script for the MIDI editor (which I did: select track of clicked item - >open MIDI editor -> zoom to content) you lose all the other contextual features like subproject and item properties.

For the sake of configurability, I vote for a velocity lane section in the mouse modifiers.
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Old 10-08-2019, 11:02 AM   #25
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For example, how often are you going to want to reset CC to an original value in the CC lane? Probably not much. In the velocity lane? That is more critical. Setting all velocities to the same value?
In my case, I actually do it often in the pitch lane, but I can't recall ever wanting to do a "reset to default" in the velocity lane, probably because I never use "default" velocities. (In the pre-envelope days, "Reset to chased value" might even have been useful in plain CC lanes, to smoothly connect curves.)


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Originally Posted by Klangfarben View Post
Two, if you want to have the same standard actions in the velocity lane vs other CC lanes, you can absolutely do that. Just make the modifiers the same in the CC Lane mouse modifiers and the Velocity lane modifiers. It will function exactly the same. And you only have to set it once and be done. Every other way of trying to solve this is going to get convoluted and overly complicated. This doesn't. It is simply adding another mouse modifier (among many, many other mouse modifier categories) and allowing the user to dictate the behavior. Want it to be the exact same behavior as the CC lanes? Just set it that way. Want it to be different? Set it different.
I think it would be simpler to make "reset" a new mouse modifier tool that can be used in any lane. (Or, make "reset value if in velocity lane" an optional extra for the erase tool, similar to the "and ignore selection / and set time / and toggle selection / etc options that some existing mouse modifier tools have.)
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Old 10-08-2019, 11:14 AM   #26
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- I am not in computer to check but when polyphonic velocities are selected and changed , changing the the level should maintain their proportions

- maybe this? a toggle or option to deal with: when 1 or more note is selected resetting velocity applies to selected notes otherwise it applies to all notes - so we can just drag 1 time

- all CCS could have defaults? Again I am not in computer but maybe when cc is in default value and user deletes it deletes otherwise sets default? Because almost all CCS can have a different meaning and user abstracts an idea for that cc. So if he could set a default in cascade project/per track) priority maybe would be nice?

Envelopes could also import this ideas I think

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Old 10-08-2019, 11:29 AM   #27
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(In the pre-envelope days, "Reset to chased value" might even have been useful in plain CC lanes, to smoothly connect curves.)
I love that idea. Not to go off topic, but did you script that already? Or is that already incorporated in the Reapack?
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Old 10-08-2019, 11:33 AM   #28
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It is! When using the ramp tool, right-click and the start point of the curve will be set to the chased value.
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Old 10-08-2019, 11:34 AM   #29
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I think it would be simpler to make "reset" a new mouse modifier tool that can be used in any lane. (Or, make "reset value if in velocity lane" an optional extra for the erase tool, similar to the "and ignore selection / and set time / and toggle selection / etc options that some existing mouse modifier tools have.)
But how do you then account for all the other use cases that need to be covered? I don't think you can. Even just reset has several ways it can be used - reset to original velocity, reset to default velocity, etc.

That can't all be accounted for simply with a reset modifier nor will it solve being able to assign a script. Having a Velocity Lane Mouse Modifier category is the cleanest way to do this and accounts for all use cases.

EDIT: And to simplify it, the default settings for CC lane modifiers and velocity lane modifiers could be the same. Thus, the two categories would function the same by default. But if the user then wants to change it, they can.
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Old 10-08-2019, 01:01 PM   #30
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For the sake of configurability, I vote for a velocity lane section in the mouse modifiers.
I totally agree, it offers the most options and would essentially solve the problem for everybody.
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Old 10-08-2019, 01:21 PM   #31
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Agreed too. Erase should erase, another modifier should default. And I think the current implementation where tweaked velocity value becomes the new default makes sense.
agreed here.

slightly off subject, but for CCs and Velocity, i've missed the crosshair guides that appear when you move items in arrange view. this would be helpful to quickly compare velocity from part to part, especially when dealing with velocity switched samples.
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Old 10-09-2019, 12:39 PM   #32
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IMHO the best solution here is give the velocity lane it's own mouse modifiers separate from CC (they are different animals anyway) and allow scripts to be used for all mouse modifiers, not just some of them.
agreed.


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For the sake of configurability, I vote for a velocity lane section in the mouse modifiers.
Agreed.

I'm all for the shake of configurability, this is what reaper stand out of all programs, this way each user can choose the best configuration that works for him and use reaper the best way he can no matter which DAW he used before.

However, having more actions and allowing scripts for all mouse modifiers is most necessary so everyone will be happy.

All in all i'm sure that everyone will just love reaper's midi much more when mouse modifiers will be totally configurable.
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Old 10-09-2019, 12:46 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Thonex
2 other differences between Velocities and CCs are that Velocities are polyphonic and CCs aren't -- by this I mean you can't have multiple CC points at the same exact time whereas you can have multiple Velocities... like on a chord. Also, Velocities are never interpolated since they are not continuous (and are not continuous controllers)... whereas CCs can be.
True, but I don't see how polyphonic notes affect the choice of mouse modifiers. Existing mouse modifier intelligently adapt to, for example, edit a single note in a chord. Multiple CCs can also stack at the same time position, even in a single lane, if they are in different channels or items.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Klangfarben View Post
But how do you then account for all the other use cases that need to be covered? I don't think you can. Even just reset has several ways it can be used - reset to original velocity, reset to default velocity, etc.
So far, IIRC, the only use case that has been mentioned, is "reset", which you and Reflected appear to use more often in the velocity lane than in CC lanes.

I may be overlooking something, but I don't see any significant difference in workflow between these lane types. In fact, my own FRs over the years have requested *more* similarity in how mouse modifiers act in the velocity lane vs CC lanes. For example MIDI editor: Option to edit CC only when mouse is over CC bar and MIDI editor: "Erase event" mouse modifier does not work in velocity lane.


BTW, there appears to be a bug in the recent dev version(s), when trying to draw CCs in any channel other than 1: The CCs get drawn in channel 1, and multiple CCs get stacked at grid positions:
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Old 10-09-2019, 12:47 PM   #34
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Shift (whatever the user choose) + drag to set horizontal line of velocities (for the selected notes) to where the first mouse click was before dragging. this way you won't need to adjust anything before you drag. example below:

just to be sure,

can something like this (drag horizontal line of velocities) be done with a script if mouse modifiers will be more configurable for velocity lane?
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Old 10-09-2019, 12:54 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Reflected View Post
just to be sure,

can something like this (drag horizontal line of velocities) be done with a script if mouse modifiers will be more configurable for velocity lane?
Easily.
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Old 10-09-2019, 02:13 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by juliansader View Post
BTW, there appears to be a bug in the recent dev version(s), when trying to draw CCs in any channel other than 1:
Fixing, thanks!
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Old 10-10-2019, 09:33 AM   #37
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Easily.
Awesome!☝️😍👍
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Old 10-10-2019, 10:04 AM   #38
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Feature request:

The Alt+click/drag erase tool can also be extended to the Text, Sysex, Notation and Bank/Program lanes.


Bug report:

The Bank/Program lane seems buggy in the recent versions. The "active zone" of each event seems to stretch all the way to the end of the item, so for example if you double-click anywhere to the right of a B/P event, the Properties window opens instead of the dialog to insert a new B/P. The mouse cursor is a 4-pointed arrow everywhere to the right of an event, and Alt-clicking anywhere erases the last B/P. (Alt-drag doesn't work to erase more than one B/P, though.)

Last edited by juliansader; 10-10-2019 at 10:11 AM.
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Old 10-10-2019, 10:30 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thonex View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by juliansader
Originally Posted by juliansader View Post
(In the pre-envelope days, "Reset to chased value" might even have been useful in plain CC lanes, to smoothly connect curves.)
I love that idea. Not to go off topic, but did you script that already? Or is that already incorporated in the Reapack?
As stevie mentioned, the "Draw ramp" and "Draw LFOs" scripts can chase start or end values while inserting new curves. Also, "js_Tilt selected events in lane under mouse to fit both sides smoothly" is a script that I find useful after freehand editing of selected events.
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Old 10-10-2019, 10:40 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by juliansader View Post
The Bank/Program lane seems buggy in the recent versions.
Fixing, thanks again!
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