Control Surface Integration (CSI) Technical Feature Discussion

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Hi Geoff, hope you made out ok with the Nova Scotia flooding. We had one of those "3 months of rain in a few hours" storms here a year or two back and it was not fun. It was raining on my dining room table and I had a few inches of water in the basement and lots of people near me got it way worse.

Luckily, we're at the top of a hill, so no problems at all, thanks for asking.

Originally Posted by Funkybot

On to the latest EXP build: no crashes when learning but we're back to needing to refresh all surfaces before being able to activate the FX map.

Will check into it.

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

This works for me. Feels like a nice compromise.

Geoff, I'm proposing one small tweak to your mapping. I'm suggesting we move the Remap action to Busses. This way the 3 far right buttons are all for FX mapping but never change function (easier for label makers).

    Inputs                      GoAssociatedZone SelectedTrackTCPFX
    AudioTracks                 GoAssociatedZone MasterTrackFXMenu
    Aux                         NoAction
    Busses                      RemapAutoZone
    Outputs                     NoAction
    User                        NoAction

No changes here...

Zone "LearnFXParams"

    Outputs		    SaveLearnedFXParams
    Outputs		    GoHome

    User                    EraseLastTouchedControl
    
ZoneEnd

[Funkybot]

This might be overly semantic but: RemapAutoZone...no longer applies to just AutoZones. Maybe rename to RemapFXZone prior to going live? If it's too late, or just not worth doing, no worries.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Geoff, I'm proposing one small tweak to your mapping. I'm suggesting we move the Remap action to Busses. This way the 3 far right buttons are all for FX mapping but never change function (easier for label makers).

    Inputs                      GoAssociatedZone SelectedTrackTCPFX
    AudioTracks                 GoAssociatedZone MasterTrackFXMenu
    Aux                         NoAction
    Busses                      RemapAutoZone
    Outputs                     NoAction
    User                        NoAction

No changes here...

Zone "LearnFXParams"

    Outputs		    SaveLearnedFXParams
    Outputs		    GoHome

    User                    EraseLastTouchedControl
    
ZoneEnd

Yup, I agree.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

This might be overly semantic but: RemapAutoZone...no longer applies to just AutoZones. Maybe rename to RemapFXZone prior to going live? If it's too late, or just not worth doing, no worries.

Actually it does only apply to auto Zones, since Learn puts those same tags (#Begin auto generated section, #End auto generated section) when it saves the Zone.

Remap can only deal with Zones that have that format.

Add to that the fact that Remap would fail on loading any manually generated Zone.

Maybe there is better nomenclature, but it's not RemapFXZone.

Not sure what to call it.

Ideas/suggestions ?

[Funkybot]

Let's leave it as-is then.

[Funkybot]

Geoff/MM/Everyone:

Attached are some updated CSI Support files with the updated FX mapping for the following surfaces:

1. BCR2000
2. C4
3. FaderPort8
4. FaderPort16
5. MCU
6. MIDIFighterTwister (doesn't include Learn)
7. MM iPad Mixer
8. X-Touch

...if you happen to use one of these surfaces, please test them out and let me know if I missed anything.

Included surfaces I intentionally left out from updating:

1. MCU XT (FXLayouts updated but no Learn mode due to lack of buttons)
2. SCE-24 (too much in flux right now - will update these once ready)
3. X-Touch One (doesn't make sense for a 1 fader surface IMO - use FocusedFXParam)

Check the Buttons and LearnFXParams zones for how to activate and save/erase. If you run into any bugs or something isn't working, do let me know. Or just fix it yourself and post the updated files here.

[Funkybot]

If you downloaded the above, please download again.

The "AudioInstrument" button was missing from the X-Touch and MCU buttons.zon. This got added back in with a NoAction in the version I just uploaded.

[flipotto]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Geoff/MM/Everyone:

Attached are some updated CSI Support files with the updated FX mapping for the following surfaces:

1. BCR2000

Check the Buttons and LearnFXParams zones for how to activate and save/erase. If you run into any bugs or something isn't working, do let me know. Or just fix it yourself and post the updated files here.

The BCR2000 files (in the zip) have undergone major revisions, adding button pushes, selected track sends/receives/TCPfx and new BCR2000 touchosc display - MM has the files. I am not sure of the status for post version 3.1. I think it would be great to include the updated BCR2000 stuff for the upcoming release.
I am happy to test, if needed.

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by flipotto

The BCR2000 files (in the zip) have undergone major revisions, adding button pushes, selected track sends/receives/TCPfx and new BCR2000 touchosc display - MM has the files. I am not sure of the status for post version 3.1. I think it would be great to include the updated BCR2000 stuff for the upcoming release.
I am happy to test, if needed.

I'll try to dig up the latest and use those. Maybe tomorrow.

EDIT: if you or MM want to make the updates, just post the new files here. You can use the files I posted as a guide. You just need:

1. A LearnFXParams zone with buttons for saving and erasing the last touched control

2. A GoAssociatedZone LearnFXParams action in the buttons zone

3. Adding the LearnFXParams zone as an AssociatedZone in the Home zone

4. Then just use the SurfaceFXLayout, FXLayouts provided in my files.

Relatively easy if you want to try (or MM of course). For all I know, it may already be done.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

Nope, you're not missing the question That was how I imagined it might work. The only issue being not having a button to activate Learn mode on the extender(s). Perhaps we could take another look at the broadcast/receive of Zones?

Just had a look at the code, GoAssociatedZone already broadcasts, so you should just need to add a LearnFXParams Zone to each extender.

The tricky bit is that Learn functionality is currently at a Surface level.

We would have to broadcast SaveLearnedFXParams.

So far so good.

However, broadcasting EraseLastTouchedControl won't work for obvious reasons.

Maybe put EraseLastTouchedControl on a RotaryPush in the LearnFXParams Zone for extenders.

Does that work ?

[edit] Middle of the night thinking
Obviously not a RotaryPush, how about a Select button ?

[Geoff Waddington]

New build is up.

https://stash.reaper.fm/v/42044/CSI%20Exp.zip

Learn now spans Surfaces.

You need the appropriate SurfaceFXLayout, FXLayouts, and Home Zone definitions.

Main Surface Associated Zone:

Zone "LearnFXParams"
    OnZoneActivation	CheckForExistingLearnZone

    Inputs		SaveLearnedFXParams

    AudioInstrument     EraseLastTouchedControl
ZoneEnd

Extender Surface Associated Zone:

Zone "LearnFXParams"
    OnZoneActivation	CheckForExistingLearnZone

    Select1             EraseLastTouchedControl
ZoneEnd

Notice you no longer need GoHome, SaveLearnedFXParams now automatically does that.

[flipotto]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Geoff/MM/Everyone:

Attached are some updated CSI Support files with the updated FX mapping for the following surfaces:

Another suggestion is to include (in the support files) the basic phone touchosc setup you used to help me figure out my network settings, a while back. This could be good for someone who only wants a few things to get started and/or to confirm they have connection.

[flipotto]

Has truncate name length been added to touchosc display for the upcoming version?

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Maybe put EraseLastTouchedControl on a RotaryPush in the LearnFXParams Zone for extenders.

Does that work ?

[edit] Middle of the night thinking
Obviously not a RotaryPush, how about a Select button ?

That sounds good Will be able to test this later today.

[MixMonkey]

@flipotto, here's the BCR2000 Zone folder updated to use the latest Learn functionality.

[MixMonkey]

Geoff, if it's not a huge undertaking, could you investigate why the color construct for OSC doesn't seem to work on some of the recently added Actions.

For instance, this works fine, producing two shades for on/off:

    User3      ToggleAutoFXMapping { #571F1FFF #FF5A5AFF }

This doesn't produce a single color (Action is not a toggle)

    User2      RemapAutoZone  { #55C5FF }

....but this does:

ButtonP1        Bank Track 8  { #643701 }

[flipotto]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

@flipotto, here's the BCR2000 Zone folder updated to use the latest Learn functionality.

This is not the complete set, that FB would add to the support files, is it? touchosc stuff and the bcr2000.ost?

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by flipotto

This is not the complete set, that FB would add to the support files, is it? touchosc stuff and the bcr2000.ost?

No, this is just the BCR2000 Zones that have changed for you to test. If they check out I'll put together the complete bundle for the support files.

[Funkybot]

Just an FYI that ReaperBlog put out a quick video covering the Remap screen.

https://youtu.be/eF4T-AG8fg4

[flipotto]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

No, this is just the BCR2000 Zones that have changed for you to test. If they check out I'll put together the complete bundle for the support files.

Tested Sends/receives - track number all fine. Connection happening.

MM - I load TDR VOS on track 1.
So I am a bit lost here, is this select plugin with fxMenu on touchosc display, where we were last on 3.1 or selected fx in reaper window?
I open TDR VOS, gui visible and on top. No parameters shown.
I see in Zones\BCR2000\AutoGeneratedFXZones there isn't a .zon for TDR VOS. NoMap is visible on touchosc.

Which button do I press to trigger remap (touchosc shows User2 but that has no effect) learn (user4 button) changes User3 to "Save" and user 2 to "erase", No dialog comes up on my screen, which I I was expecting. I don't have a dialog or know how to open it.

Watched reaperblogs video up to him browsing for autogenerated .zon but there was no autogenerated .zon for TDR VOS.

I will keep watching the video, maybe something will become clear.

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by flipotto

Tested Sends/receives - track number all fine. Connection happening.

MM - I load TDR VOS on track 1.
So I am a bit lost here, is this select plugin with fxMenu on touchosc display, where we were last on 3.1 or selected fx in reaper window?
I open TDR VOS, gui visible and on top. No parameters shown.
I see in Zones\BCR2000\AutoGeneratedFXZones there isn't a .zon for TDR VOS. NoMap is visible on touchosc.

Which button do I press to trigger remap (touchosc shows User2 but that has no effect) learn (user4 button) changes User3 to "Save" and user 2 to "erase", No dialog comes up on my screen, which I I was expecting. I don't have a dialog or know how to open it.

Watched reaperblogs video up to him browsing for autogenerated .zon but there was no autogenerated .zon for TDR VOS.

I will keep watching the video, maybe something will become clear.

Learn is completely separate and different from auto-map generation. Auto-map will assign all the parameters it can to the available widgets defined in FXLayouts.zon. You can then load the auto-generated Zone and edit it with the ReMap window.

With Learn, the process is different. Open an FX window for a plugin that doesn't already have an FX.zon (a map). Operate one of the plugin controls on the screen (this then becomes the "Last touched control").

Press the button assigned to GoAssociatedZone LearnFXParams (for the BCR2000, this is User4). You are now in Learn mode. Turn a control on the BCR2000 (or the iPad). That control should now be aasigned to the plugin parameter you operated before entering Learn mode. You should see the displays change to reflect the assignment.

You can now operate other plugin controls on screen and assign them to surface controls in a similar manner.

If you want to delete an assignment, operate the control then push Erase. The displays for that control should go blank.

When you are done, hit Save and you will automatically exit Learn mode and the Learnt map will be available to use.

You can open this map in the ReMap window for further editing, but be aware that once you do this you cannot return to Learn mode to add/delete more controls

Learn mode should be considered a quick and simple way of mapping a few plugin controls to a surface. As long as you don't manually edit the learnt map (with the ReMap window or any other means) you can re-enter Learn mode to add/delete controls.

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

When you are done, hit Save and you will automatically exit Learn mode and the Learnt map will be available to use.

You can open this map in the ReMap window for further editing, but be aware that once you do this you cannot return to Learn mode to add/delete more controls

I think you can pick right back up now. At least, it was working as of yesterday.

The process is this:

1. Enter Learn mode again
2. Focus an FX on the plugin

Result: the existing Learn map should pick right back up once the FX is in focus

You should be able to add to the map and save again. Or use the remap window.

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Notice you no longer need GoHome, SaveLearnedFXParams now automatically does that.

I had actually debated requesting this but thought it would be good to "save as you go" so I had added a shift option to save without going home.

Zone "LearnFXParams"
    OnZoneActivation	SetXTouchDisplayColors Yellow
    OnZoneActivation	CheckForExistingLearnZone

    Outputs             SaveLearnedFXParams
    Outputs             GoHome
    Shift+Outputs       SaveLearnedFXParams

    User                EraseLastTouchedControl
    
ZoneEnd

Just food for thought. Might be more flexible to not automatically go home.

I can live with it either way.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

I had actually debated requesting this but thought it would be good to "save as you go" so I had added a shift option to save without going home.

Zone "LearnFXParams"
    OnZoneActivation	SetXTouchDisplayColors Yellow
    OnZoneActivation	CheckForExistingLearnZone

    Outputs             SaveLearnedFXParams
    Outputs             GoHome
    Shift+Outputs       SaveLearnedFXParams

    User                EraseLastTouchedControl
    
ZoneEnd

Just food for thought. Might be more flexible to not automatically go home.

I can live with it either way.

That sort of got forced by Mix's request for Learn to span Surfaces.

The SaveLearnedFXParams now broadcasts, in order for the Extenders to Save their contribution to the overall "logical" Zone, which is larger than any one set of Surface controls.

Typically the Extenders won't have a SaveLearnedFXParams Action mapped:

Zone "LearnFXParams"
    OnZoneActivation	CheckForExistingLearnZone

    Select1             EraseLastTouchedControl
ZoneEnd

If SaveLearnedFXParams didn't automatically Go Home, and you had the typical LearnFXParams setup on the Main Surface, the Main Surface would Go home, but the Extenders would stay on the LearnFXParams Zone.

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

That sort of got forced by Mix's request for Learn to span Surfaces.

Makes total sense. Will update accordingly.

I haven't had the chance to dig into today's build but did you get a chance to look into the issue with needing to refresh surfaces to use the Learned FX zones in yesterday's build?

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

I haven't had the chance to dig into today's build but did you get a chance to look into the issue with needing to refresh surfaces to use the Learned FX zones in yesterday's build?

Had a quick go, and couldn't find the issue, so I pressed on with the Learn mode spans Surfaces feature, as well as some firmware work i'm doing on the SCE24.

Will get to it eventually

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

I think you can pick right back up now. At least, it was working as of yesterday.

The process is this:

1. Enter Learn mode again
2. Focus an FX on the plugin

Result: the existing Learn map should pick right back up once the FX is in focus

You should be able to add to the map and save again. Or use the remap window.

You can't return to Learn mode if you've made edits to the map using the ReMap window (or any other means). If you re-enter Learn mode with an edited map you'll be starting from scratch.

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Had a quick go, and couldn't find the issue, so I pressed on with the Learn mode spans Surfaces feature, as well as some firmware work i'm doing on the SCE24.

Will get to it eventually

Seems to load ok here without needing a refresh.

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

You can't return to Learn mode if you've made edits to the map using the ReMap window (or any other means). If you re-enter Learn mode with an edited map you'll be starting from scratch.

Ah, yes, I missed that part.

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

Seems to load ok here without needing a refresh.

Just checked and it's working today here too.

I tried twice yesterday on two different Reaper starts and it wasn't working either time.

[flipotto]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

Learn is completely separate and different from auto-map generation. Auto-map will assign all the parameters it can to the available widgets defined in FXLayouts.zon. You can then load the auto-generated Zone and edit it with the ReMap window.

With Learn, the process is different. Open an FX window for a plugin that doesn't already have an FX.zon (a map). Operate one of the plugin controls on the screen (this then becomes the "Last touched control").

Press the button assigned to GoAssociatedZone LearnFXParams (for the BCR2000, this is User4). You are now in Learn mode. Turn a control on the BCR2000 (or the iPad). That control should now be aasigned to the plugin parameter you operated before entering Learn mode. You should see the displays change to reflect the assignment.

You can now operate other plugin controls on screen and assign them to surface controls in a similar manner.

If you want to delete an assignment, operate the control then push Erase. The displays for that control should go blank.

When you are done, hit Save and you will automatically exit Learn mode and the Learnt map will be available to use.

You can open this map in the ReMap window for further editing, but be aware that once you do this you cannot return to Learn mode to add/delete more controls

Learn mode should be considered a quick and simple way of mapping a few plugin controls to a surface. As long as you don't manually edit the learnt map (with the ReMap window or any other means) you can re-enter Learn mode to add/delete controls.

I believe, I don't have the correct, something. This is what I had on 3.1 with your updated bcr2k from today. Perhaps my issues lie here.

I don't ever see edit dialog after remap press, when I press learn I don't see any dialog. I am missing something.
Thanks!

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by flipotto

I believe, I don't have the correct, something. This is what I had on 3.1 with your updated bcr2k from today. Perhaps my issues lie here.

Your files work fine. Are you sure you're using the correct Zone folder, BCR2000, not the older MM_BCR2000?

I don't ever see edit dialog after remap press, when I press learn I don't see any dialog. I am missing something.
Thanks!

Do you have an existing fx.zon active before you press the ReMap button? That's how it's always worked.

No dialog appears when you enter Learn mode. You just turn a control on the plugin GUI and then a control on surface. You carry on like this until you're done, then you press save, which will save the learnt Zone and simultaneously GoHome.

[flipotto]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

Your files work fine. Are you sure you're using the correct Zone folder, BCR2000, not the older MM_BCR2000?

Confirmed

Do you have an existing fx.zon active before you press the ReMap button? That's how it's always worked.

No you helped me make it so active fx had to be chosen by touchosc bcr2000 button (fxMenu) it would not be active and I could map on 3.1, if I understand your statement correctly.

No dialog appears when you enter Learn mode. You just turn a control on the plugin GUI and then a control on surface.

Maybe it's just me, but some sort of indicator that I am in learn mode - unless the button on touchosc changing "is" the indicator? I think there needs to be something more to tell us we are in learn mode, especially for those that won't/don't have a display or for us less than aware folks... In that - something that tells us the order to do it. Wiggle knob on surface then wiggle knob on plugin. Even if that "is" the standard way to do it. A prompt saying - Hey you are in learn mode, did you want to be in learn mode?/here is a line or two how it works/or woops - cancel. Since I haven't seen how it works yet, I may be way off base and too soon to the game. I really am trying to be a guinea pig tester.

I will restart computer and see if anything changes.

Edit - restarted. Still not doing what is expected.
I'm missing something, simple and crucial.
No .zon files are created on adding plugin

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by flipotto

No you helped me make it so active fx had to be chosen by touchosc bcr2000 button (fxMenu) it would not be active and I could map on 3.1, if I understand your statement correctly.

I mean an fx map has to be active (by selecting it from the FX menu) before the ReMap button will work. How will it know what fx to remap otherwise?

Maybe it's just me, but some sort of indicator that I am in learn mode - unless the button on touchosc changing "is" the indicator?

I thought that was sufficient, but you could change the use of one of the EncoderGroup buttons if you wanted, get rid of MasterFX, say.

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by flipotto

Edit - restarted. Still not doing what is expected.
I'm missing something, simple and crucial.
No .zon files are created on adding plugin

If you want an fx.zon to be created automatically, turn on auto-map (AMAP).

If you want to create an fx.zon using Learn mode, enter Learn mode and follow the steps I outlined previosly.

[flipotto]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

Press the button assigned to GoAssociatedZone LearnFXParams (for the BCR2000, this is User4). You are now in Learn mode. Turn a control on the BCR2000 (or the iPad). That control should now be aasigned to the plugin parameter you operated before entering Learn mode. You should see the displays change to reflect the assignment.

Examples all with TDR VOS only plugin on track 1
I have AMAP working now. (seelect with ipad fxmenu button then AMAP ipad) - all parameters mapped to controls.

For Learn - Do I need to select the VST first using fxMenu ipad?
When I do that using ipad fxmenu button, the button continues to be called NoMap. Perhaps it is NoMap until saved?
I tried procedure you state above, unless I have it wrong?
Track 1 with TDR VOS on it - no existing automap.zon

1. select track click on it
2. click on TDR VOS in reaper
3. click on NoMap (this is TDR but label does not reflect) button on ipad fxmenu 
4. wiggle TDR low f 
5. press learn button ipad user2
6. wiggle d1
7. click save (does not save not change)

The only way out is to click on empty slot of ipad fxmenu.

EDIT - Do I need to be back to selected track fx instead of FxMenu select?

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by flipotto

Examples all with TDR VOS only plugin on track 1
I have AMAP working now. (seelect with ipad fxmenu button then AMAP ipad) - all parameters mapped to controls.

I've got the BCR2000 set up now (was just using iPad) and I've just noticed that pressing User3 on the BCR2000 doesn't turn on Auto-Map anymore - it used to though, didn't it?

For Learn - Do I need to select the VST first using fxMenu ipad?

No, that's what I was trying to get across when I said that Learn was "separate and different" from Auto-Map. Just make sure you have that track selected (it will save you selecting it later).

Learn relies on the principle of the "last touched control". All you need to do is open an FX window and move a control. If you click in the Reaper "Param" box in the bar above the FX GUI, you'll see (in annoyingly light grey type) "Last touched:" followed by the parameter name. Now enter Learn mode (button User4).

If you now move a control on the BCR2000, you should see that parameter name (and value) appear on the iPad. The control is now mapped to the parameter.

If you press Save, you will GoHome and the FX menu on the iPad should show the plugin name instead of "NoMap". You can now activate that plugin from the FXMenu in the normal way.

Try that and see if it works for you and we'll go from there

[MixMonkey]

Okay, I just tried this using BCR2000 controls and couldn't get it to work, so there's something hinky here.

Try the process I described using the iPad and see if that works for you and I'll try and track down why the BCR2000 won't co-operate in Learn mode (it still works after the controls are learnt via the iPad, but it doesn't get picked up by CSI during Learn).

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Learn now spans Surfaces.

Can confirm this works. Can Learn a single plugin across an XT and MCU, and the fx.zon end up in their respective auto-generated folders

It has exposed a bug in the FXMenu, though. I don't see the FXMenu appear on my first surface (an XT). The FXMenu begins at slot 9 on my MCU (the second surface) and continues from there across 2 further XTs. Because I couldn't see the first 8 FX slots, I confirmed that Learn worked across surfaces using FocusedFX (ugh!)

The really strange thing is that the FXMenu continues across the last two XTs whether or not a SelectedTrackFXMenu Zone is present in the XT Zone folder