Control Surface Integration (CSI) Technical Feature Discussion

[MT4U]

Besides FX, I've been taking great advantage of CSI's SubZones in other places.

For example, I have a SubZone that I call from the Buttons Zone on the X-Touch that shows these 14 "Track Templates" over both surface's displays and inserts the one I need with the press of a button.

It's amazing what can be acomplished in CSI with SubZones and a little scripting.

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by MT4U

One question, MM. Do you use the X-Touch displays to build your custom "FX-Menu" and from there GoFXSlot maps FX Params on any of your C4s? If so, how do you make the C4 leave that SubZone, or traverse other SubZones if any?

Much, much simpler than that FXMenu is on Row A of each C4 (sends on Row D, receives on Row C). These show whatever track is currently selected on the other surfaces.

The FXMenu stays displayed on Row A when the FX maps on Rows B,C and D. The C4s are (almost) independent of each other, so different FX can be chosen from each FXMenu for the selected track for each of the C4s.

SubZones are mapped to four buttons on the bottom section of each C4 (as well as to pushes on Rows B,C and D for more complicated stuff). GoHome is mapped to button in the bottom section too.

Nothing really happens automatically, but as all this is independent of the other, fader based surfaces it doesn't really matter.

[Geoff Waddington]

Thanks for the discussion folks, it makes everything clear.

As FB says, iOS style interfaces are the way to go, the Ux is through the roof, all good, especially for new/casual users.

The trick is trying to balance that with satisfying the needs of you folks

Those are some serious, some might say esoteric, setups you describe.

Welcome to my world, how do we achieve all of that at once ?

[MT4U]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

Much, much simpler than that FXMenu is on Row A of each C4 (sends on Row D, receives on Row C). These show whatever track is currently selected on the other surfaces.

The FXMenu stays displayed on Row A when the FX maps on Rows B,C and D. The C4s are (almost) independent of each other, so different FX can be chosen from each FXMenu for the selected track for each of the C4s.

SubZones are mapped to four buttons on the bottom section of each C4 (as well as to pushes on Rows B,C and D for more complicated stuff). GoHome is mapped to button in the bottom section too.

Nothing really happens automatically, but as all this is independent of the other, fader based surfaces it doesn't really matter.

Arghhh… now I NEED a C4

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MT4U

Arghhh… now I NEED a C4

Or an SCE24

[MT4U]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Or an SCE24

Yeah, well. Taxes where I’m living have you pay 999 USD for an X-Touch. ;-(

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Or an SCE24

It's this workflow that really makes a difference to productivity. The fader based surfaces just stay on track level/pan duties and a separate surface (C4/SCE24) stays locked to the selected track, covering sends/receives and FX.

I recently changed the C4 to show the FXMenu all the time (only using Rows B,C and D for FX) so that I could switch between FX without having to GoHome first. Even faster

[Geoff Waddington]

Ok back to:

Zone Home
    OnInitialization	ToggleBroadcastReceive

What does this encompass?

Here are some choices:

GoAssociatedZone
GoHome
AdjustBank
GoLearnFXParams
SaveLearnedFXParams
GoFXSlot
ClearFXSlot
ClearSelectedTrackFX
ClearFocusedFX
ClearFocusedFXParam

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Ok back to:

Zone Home
    OnInitialization	ToggleBroadcastReceive

What does this encompass?

Here are some choices:

GoAssociatedZone
GoHome
AdjustBank
GoLearnFXParams
SaveLearnedFXParams
GoFXSlot
ClearFXSlot
ClearSelectedTrackFX
ClearFocusedFX
ClearFocusedFXParam

...and that's exactly what they should be, choices

Seriously though, If ToggleBroadcastReceive could take arguments eg:

ToggleBroadcastReceive [ GoAssociatedZone GoFXSlot ]

..that would provide a degree of flexibility whilst not being as granular as the old Broadcast this, Receive that approach.

[MT4U]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Ok back to:

Zone Home
    OnInitialization	ToggleBroadcastReceive

What does this encompass?

Here are some choices:

GoAssociatedZone
GoHome
AdjustBank
GoLearnFXParams
SaveLearnedFXParams
GoFXSlot
ClearFXSlot
ClearSelectedTrackFX
ClearFocusedFX
ClearFocusedFXParam

Do you think AllSurfacesGoHome would still be of use in such scenario?

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MT4U

Do you think AllSurfacesGoHome would still be of use in such scenario?

Yeah, it's always nice to have that big hammer, when needed

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

...and that's exactly what they should be, choices

Seriously though, If ToggleBroadcastReceive could take arguments eg:

ToggleBroadcastReceive [ GoAssociatedZone GoFXSlot ]

..that would provide a degree of flexibility whilst not being as granular as the old Broadcast this, Receive that approach.

Sigh... I need a magic answer, not the truth

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Sigh... I need a magic answer, not the truth

I feel you brother Just nuke the lot apart from AllSurfacesGoHome and let's see how that goes.

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Ok back to:

Zone Home
    OnInitialization	ToggleBroadcastReceive

What does this encompass?

Here are some choices:

GoAssociatedZone
GoHome
AdjustBank
GoLearnFXParams
SaveLearnedFXParams
GoFXSlot
ClearFXSlot
ClearSelectedTrackFX
ClearFocusedFX 
ClearFocusedFXParam

For FocusedFX and FocusedFXParam, we've already got surface level toggle actions right? For instance, I can have FocusedFX enabled on the MFTwister without impacting the X-Touch in the slightest. If I'm not wrong, then I don't think you need to worry about those two at minimum. Just keep current behavior.

Kind of in line with MM's thinking, what if there were actions like:

ToggleBroadcastGoFXSlot
ToggleBroadcastGoAssicatedZone

...does that make things any easier or equal degree of difficulty?

[MT4U]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Kind of in line with MM's thinking, what if there were actions like:

ToggleBroadcastGoFXSlot
ToggleBroadcastGoAssicatedZone

Now that you've stripped one of the words (Broadcast/Receive) you got me thinking:

What if everything is Broadcasted and you just toggle Receive on a per surface basis?

[UNdark]

Hello - I Moved this from the other thread.
getting back on the scene a bit and getting V3 into shape..
Long shot...
I know we have "ClearModifiers"....

How hard would it be to add:

ClearControl
ClearShift
ClearOption
ClearAlt

As individual Modifier removals?

Would be AWESOME!!!! if possible.. AMAZING for Envelopes.. I'd be happy to show it working. Hope to get back doing the vids in due course now my neural netways are finding new routes

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by UNdark

Hello - I Moved this from the other thread.
getting back on the scene a bit and getting V3 into shape..
Long shot...
I know we have "ClearModifiers"....

How hard would it be to add:

ClearControl
ClearShift
ClearOption
ClearAlt

As individual Modifier removals?

Would be AWESOME!!!! if possible.. AMAZING for Envelopes.. I'd be happy to show it working. Hope to get back doing the vids in due course now my neural netways are finding new routes

Please do show or explain, interested in understanding this workflow.

[Geoff Waddington]

Design/workflow question regarding shifting focus during Learn.

There is now a dialog -- "Do you want to Save?".

But what happens next ?

As coded now (here, not released), if you save, you then GoHome.

If you choose not to Save, you GoHome.

There are some other options.

If you Save, CSI could infer you were done with the previous FX and now want to go into Learn mode for the newly focused FX.

If you don't Save, CSI could infer you shifted focus by mistake, and attempt to return focus to the original FX, and continue to Learn.

I'm sure there are a few other possibilities.

Thoughts/suggestions ?

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by MT4U

What if everything is Broadcasted and you just toggle Receive on a per surface basis?

I think that's what we're talking about. A mechanism to tell surfaces to ignore certain Broadcast information.

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Design/workflow question regarding shifting focus during Learn.

There is now a dialog -- "Do you want to Save?".

But what happens next ?

As coded now (here, not released), if you save, you then GoHome.

If you choose not to Save, you GoHome.

As long as you make clear that the reason for the dialog is that the focus has shifted, this behaviour is fine. It's trivial to re-focus the plugin and re-enter learn mode.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by MixMonkey

As long as you make clear that the reason for the dialog is that the focus has shifted, this behaviour is fine. It's trivial to re-focus the plugin and re-enter learn mode.

Cool, that is my initial feeling as well.

[Geoff Waddington]

ToggleEnableFocusedFXMapping and ToggleEnableFocusedFXParamMapping make things difficult for Learn mode and some other internal aspects of CSI.

I'm wondering if we can drop FocusedFXParamMapping, now that we have Auto Map and Learn.

Also wondering if it is feasible to have FocusedFXMapping always on ?

Thoughts/suggestions ?

[Funkybot]

Agree with MM on the focus point.

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

ToggleEnableFocusedFXMapping and ToggleEnableFocusedFXParamMapping make things difficult for Learn mode and some other internal aspects of CSI.

I'm wondering if we can drop FocusedFXParamMapping, now that we have Auto Map and Learn.

Also wondering if it is feasible to have FocusedFXMapping always on ?

Thoughts/suggestions ?

I love FocusedFXParam. It's terrific for quick updates. It's also THE ONLY FXParamMapping that makes any kind of sense for the X-Touch One and FaderPort 2. You're not going to use an FXMenu on a 1 fader surface, or map a bunch of params. But Focus and adjust the fader is a great method. I use it all the time on my X-Touch One despite the Twister and the X-Touch Universal. So please keep it. And don't broadcast it.

I definitely would hate having FocusedFXMapping always on. I think most of us with an FX Menu far prefer that to FocusedFXMapping. I think you need a Focus option for users with no FX Menu, but it should definitely not be always on.

I'd really hate to see major features tossed out. Particularly because the sample size that follows this forum was so small relative to people who use CSI and don't pay attention to this stuff. You're definitely not getting representative base of CSI users here so there may be people utilizing this stuff who would really miss it. I had someone whose forum name I didn't recognize thank me on Gearspace the other day for the CSI wiki in a completely unrelated discussion. Was crazy!

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Also wondering if it is feasible to have FocusedFXMapping always on ?
Thoughts/suggestions ?

This wouldn't work for me. It would mean every time I clicked on a plugin GUI or opened an FX chain window the damm thing would map to the surface.

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

I'm wondering if we can drop FocusedFXParamMapping, now that we have Auto Map and Learn.

Sorry, but another no here. FocusedFXParam is super useful to write parameter automation using the master fader on the MCU and requires no map of any kind.

[Geoff Waddington]

Message delivered and received

Just trying to simplify things.

So, here's what got me started.

You have a focused FX in Learn mode.

You switch focus.

You get the warning dialog as per the previous post.

CSI goes home.

You press the LearnFXParams button.

Nothing happens, because there is already a map for the newly focused FX.

So, maybe this is the best solution:

If you just came from the above scenario, even though you have FocusedFXMapping turned off, in this case it maps anyway, that being the path of least surprises.

Or maybe you get a dialog offering to delete the existing map when you press the LearnFXParams button.

Thoughts/suggestions ?

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Thoughts/suggestions ?

First thought: I could never be a programmer.

Are you talking about FocusedFXMapping or FocusedFXAutoMapping?

You have a focused FX in Learn mode.

You switch focus.

You get the warning dialog as per the previous post.

CSI goes home.

I'm with you so far. Where I'm starting to get lost is here...

You press the LearnFXParams button.

Nothing happens, because there is already a map for the newly focused FX.

If I chose not to save and GoHome, why is there a map if a I press LearnFXParams again? Unless you were talking about FocusedFXAutoMapping. If yes, then I'd say: yeah, offer to load or delete the existing map. If no, where did that map come from?

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

If I chose not to save and GoHome, why is there a map if a I press LearnFXParams again? Unless you were talking about FocusedFXAutoMapping. If yes, then I'd say: yeah, offer to load or delete the existing map. If no, where did that map come from?

Because the newly focused FX that started this whole mess already has a map (defined Zone).

I should have explained that if you have a focused FX that already has a map and you press LearnFXParams, currently it does nothing.

Trying to figure out what should happen when you press LearnFXParams under those conditions.

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Because the newly focused FX that started this whole mess already has a map (defined Zone).

I should have explained that if you have a focused FX that already has a map and you press LearnFXParams, currently it does nothing.

Trying to figure out what should happen when you press LearnFXParams under those conditions.

Thanks for clarifying.

Yeah, offer to delete or load.

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Thanks for clarifying.

Yeah, offer to delete or load.

Cool, that's close what I was thinking.

I think the choice should be delete the existing map and go into Learn mode.

Other than that, do we even have a way to activate FocusedFX Zones other than ToggleEnableFocusedFXMapping ?

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Cool, that's close what I was thinking.

I think the choice should be delete the existing map and go into Learn mode.

Other than that, do we even have a way to activate FocusedFX Zones other than ToggleEnableFocusedFXMapping ?

Not that I'm aware of. In the current state we have:

ToggleEnableFocusedFXMapping for focusing
ToggleAutoFocusedFXMapping for automapping focused plugins (which sounds like is going away in the next build)

[Geoff Waddington]

Question on the bug report.

Seems to work fine here.

Is the test you did on one Surface only, or does it involve Broadcast ?

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Not that I'm aware of. In the current state we have:

ToggleEnableFocusedFXMapping for focusing
ToggleAutoFocusedFXMapping for automapping focused plugins (which sounds like is going away in the next build)

Ok, so we really don't have a way to activate a Focused FX Zone other than automatically via ToggleEnableFocusedFXMapping.

Given that, I think the dialog should offer to delete the existing Zone and go into Learn mode, or Cancel to do nothing.

Make sense ?

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Question on the bug report.

Seems to work fine here.

Is the test you did on one Surface only, or does it involve Broadcast ?

Ugh...it's the monitor and my eyes fooling me.

Looks like it's NOT a CSI issue but rather a shortcoming of this very common method of activating FX...

     RotaryPush|                Reaper "_S&M_FLOATFX|"
     RotaryPush|                Reaper "_S&M_SELFX|"
     RotaryPush|                GoFXSlot

Those S&M actions have no idea about CSI banking. Because why would they? So RotaryPush8 always opens FX Slot 8 on screen.

This went from a bug report to a feature request.

     RotaryPush|                GoFXSlot
     RotaryPush|                FloatFXSlot

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Ok, so we really don't have a way to activate a Focused FX Zone other than automatically via ToggleEnableFocusedFXMapping.

Given that, I think the dialog should offer to delete the existing Zone and go into Learn mode, or Cancel to do nothing.

Make sense ?

Yessir!

[Geoff Waddington]

Originally Posted by Funkybot

Ugh...it's the monitor and my eyes fooling me.

Looks like it's NOT a CSI issue but rather a shortcoming of this very common method of activating FX...

     RotaryPush|                Reaper "_S&M_FLOATFX|"
     RotaryPush|                Reaper "_S&M_SELFX|"
     RotaryPush|                GoFXSlot

Those S&M actions have no idea about CSI banking. Because why would they? So RotaryPush8 always opens FX Slot 8 on screen.

This went from a bug report to a feature request.

     RotaryPush|                GoFXSlot
     RotaryPush|                FloatFXSlot

This is actually very fortuitous and timely as it pertains to our Broadcast/Receive discussion.

Since Selected variant banking is at Surface scope a problem could develop.

If you Broadcast/Receive GoFXSlot, you must also Broadcast Selected variant banking, otherwise the 2 Surfaces -- e.g. Twister and iPad would activate different Zones.

Much more thinking to do re: Broadcast/Receive.

[Geoff Waddington]

Okay, Auto Map/Learn is coming along, let's refocus on Broadcast/Receive.

Here's an example of two conflicting configurations:

MM has 2 C4s that share FX Folders he doesn't want to Broadcast/Receive.

FB has a Twister/iPad setup that share FX Folders that must Broadcast/Receive in order to stay in synch.

I like MT4Us idea that everyone Broadcasts, it's Receive that is selective.

Any thoughts/suggestions ?

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

Okay, Auto Map/Learn is coming along, let's refocus on Broadcast/Receive.

Here's an example of two conflicting configurations:

MM has 2 C4s that share FX Folders he doesn't want to Broadcast/Receive.

FB has a Twister/iPad setup that share FX Folders that must Broadcast/Receive in order to stay in synch.

I like MT4Us idea that everyone Broadcasts, it's Receive that is selective.

Any thoughts/suggestions ?

MT4U's suggestion would work for me. Seems to add just the right amount of granularity while still being simple to explain.

[MixMonkey]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

I like MT4Us idea that everyone Broadcasts, it's Receive that is selective.

Any thoughts/suggestions ?

I'm fine with the Receive being selective, but how much granularity do we get?

Also, are we still working from the premise that Track Zones (Track/Send/Reveive/FXMenu) always Broadcast/Receive?

[Funkybot]

Originally Posted by Geoff Waddington

If you Broadcast/Receive GoFXSlot, you must also Broadcast Selected variant banking, otherwise the 2 Surfaces -- e.g. Twister and iPad would activate different Zones.

Oh yeah, banking definitely needs to inherit the broadcast/receive state of the zone it's being called from.